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I went to pick Maggie up last night (9-30pm) from the chippy where she works part-time, There was police swarming all over the area. At the bus stop outside a young girl 15/16 years old was waiting for a bus when 3 scumbags crossed the road and thought fit to give her a bl***y good hiding&kicking they where seen & heared running of laughing, the young girl was left on the floor 1/2 in the road unconscious & bleeding heavily the ambulance was called & she was rushed to hope hospital where she remain in a stable condition the culprits as of today have not been found they where 2 girls & a lad around 16 years old. Bring back the birch i say. If that was your daughter would you dissagree! I learned my respect for people when i was at school, if i did wrong i got the cane so i didn't do it. The do-gooders of this country are the biggist problem IMO, I say let the teachers TEACH our kids the respect that they have to earn then bring back National Service.

Do you think I'm right or should we carry on with the do-gooders.

Wayne.   

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So the attackers were two girls and a lad.  Cane and National Service might have worked for the lad, but there was still crime when both were commonplace.  If I remember right, most of the teddy boys would have been at boys only schools where they would have been caned for stepping too far out of line, and they would have done their NS.  They still existed, though, so cane + NS didn't work for them.  As for the girls, which girls schools used the cane?  And National Service? 

No, this is more serious than that.  You're right, of course, it needs fixing, but the problems begin at home, not at school.  True the problems get carried into the schools, and in some areas the peer pressures on the kids who are reasonably well behaved are virtually guaranteed to pull them down as well. 

Our solution to that, exclusion!  Allows the better behaved kids to settle down, but what then of the disruptive ones?  Presumably they just go on to the become fully fledged criminals stuffing our prisons.

There has to be a better, smarter, way that we use at present.  And that has to have something to do with reform.

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I remember years ago Willie Wightlaw advocating Boot Camps, it did not materialise ! IMO there is only one way to deal with persistant offenders, and that is HARD labour, so hard in fact that they would rather kill themselves than the thought of doing it again.

 

People advocate that the death penalty does not work ! may be so but I look at it this way, that murderer, rapist, cop killer will never do it again. full stop ! We could think for years for an ideal solution, while these terrible crimes continue, enough is enough. chas

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These senseless attacks on defenseless individuals make my blood boil, and I would dearly love to give the perpetrators a taste of their own medicine. But it is not as simple as that, as Brian Kirby has written the root causes go back a long way. Society has degenerated to such a low level with the do-gooders favouring the criminal rather than the victim, any form of true justice will now be so alien as to be unworkable.

 

The parents of these young thugs have a duty to bring up their children correctly but they themselves most probably do not know right from wrong, so where do you start?

 

I do think that in the UK punishment is not severe enough to act as a deterrent. Most decent people have sufficient self respect not to engage in this sort of activity and hence do not need the threat of punishment to disuade them. However for the hard core of young thugs and those likely to emulate them, caning should be introduced. A person convicted of an assault similar to the one described above should have their human rights suspended and be subjected to physical punishment.

 

In Singapore caning is used for a wide variety of offences that act against the community. There is also the mandatory death sentence for drug dealers and carrying guns without a license. Consequently the crime rate in the city is very low, women are safe on the streets all night and any fights are generally drunken expats, who dont know how to conduct themselves. They are generally put wise by the police and behave afterwards or loose their jobs. If any expat's children mis-behave, the whole family is interveiwed by the police and warned that a second offense will mean the family being expelled from the country. This does tend to focus the minds of the parents on proper parenting.

 

There is a lot the Government could do along these lines to bring back a sense of social responsibility to individuals, rather than let them assume their rights take precedent over everything.

 

Im very sorry for the young girl involved in the attack and I wish her a very speedy recovery. I hope she will still be able to enjoy Christmas and the New Year.

 

VoH

 

 

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chas - 2006-12-19 1:40 PM I remember years ago Willie Wightlaw advocating Boot Camps, it did not materialise ! IMO there is only one way to deal with persistant offenders, and that is HARD labour, so hard in fact that they would rather kill themselves than the thought of doing it again. People advocate that the death penalty does not work ! may be so but I look at it this way, that murderer, rapist, cop killer will never do it again. full stop ! We could think for years for an ideal solution, while these terrible crimes continue, enough is enough. chas

chas

I agree with you fully, I used to work in the I.O.Man in the 60s they birched people then & I remembered one birching, a scouser squealed like a pig but word went back to the mainland hence very very litle trouble if any so punishment DOE'S WORK. There was a programe an telly McIntyre something about thugs & one in Middlesbough that DID a better job with thugs/dealers/ect than the police or Gov will ever do. Look at the Mayor who they sacked for doing zero tolerance?????.Look up since 1997 how murders has gone UP with this Gov attitude to tackle trouble ON ANY LEVEL.

Wayne.

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I'm just copying a reply I made on the other thread before it moved here... sorry.

The problem Brian, is that many criminals can't be educated to see the error of their ways, because they aren't wired that way.  This is more to do with morality than behaviour.  Although we can teach morals, we can't force people to feel moral.  There are certain pathways in the brain that control how we experience and play out morality and a number of people in our society will never be convinced that it is important to respect person and property or to do the right thing.  Not because they want to be disagreeable and anti-social, but because they simply aren't wired to feel that way.  For most, this never improves as their lives progress, and this is why 2000 years of trying has never produced a better system than incarceration and removal from the community.  It is something that society has never addressed... everyone's mind is different, and there will always be a percentage of people out there who threaten our wellbeing.

The solution has always come back to threats, punishment, incarceration, penalties.  All designed to try to get a person to overcome their natural inclination through logic and force of reason.  But history shows we rarely fully convert from our natural ways, be they habits or additions or desires.  We need to protect ourselves and our children from harm, and we must do this in any way reasonable, but the mind of the "criminal" is simply one that works to different principles and levels of morality.  For many, they don't wander the streets thinking "I want to be bad today", they are simply acting as they are wired.  "Bad" just means that if they do x then they get punished.  They never fully understand why.

Those who followed the '60s TV show Star Trek might remember the solution put forward then... "There's no crime in our century because we learned how to identify criminals at an early age and intervene". 

We are all, every one of us, a product of our evolution.  Somehow, I don't know how, society will have to figure out how to deal with those who don't think in the same terms.  That group will always be there unless evolution takes a different turn.

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Well funny you all think that . I have just been told off by the school because I wont let the little one headbutt kick spit bite pull her clothes off/

They wrote to the Social Services and said I am a disciplinarian ?

 

Now that is a matter of opinion but I tell you what she dont do it at home .

Just because she is special needs she should be allowed . I dont think so .

 

She understands that it wont happen in this house . But at school hey red rag to a bull weird or what NO.

She has the sense to know they wont do stuff all.

If my kids ever ever caused trouble hurt anyone brought the Police to my door they would get more than bloody hard labour . They know right from wrong . same as I do.

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One of the biggest problems is that these thugs and trouble makers are now second generation, i.e. their parents were just the same except for one difference, the kids today know that the law can very rarely touch them, or indeed have the manpower to do so. The CPS have adopted the attitude that unless a conviction is secure, then dont go to court with it.

 

How many stories do we read about youths and kids terrorising neighbourhoods . These are 10 - 16 year olds, would they have gotten away with it 10 years ago, I doubt it very much. I, for certain know that in the village I live in, trouble makers like that would have received a severe warning from one or two of the locals, and if it happened again then just punishment would be served. Now I certainly do not condone violence or vigilanties, however, there was very little trouble, because the trouble makers knew that there would not be any court reports or holidays from social services. And they certainly didn't do it again.

 

The breakdown of the community spirit we once enjoyed, has played a big part in the "anti social behaviour" of today, when I was young it was called illegal activities, and punished as such.

 

All I can say is god help us in another 10 years or so.

 

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Hi Michele- How would you deal with your children if the police came to your door. As things stand now, if you raised your hand to them and give them a whack around the ear , or a slape on the bottom you can be prosecuted, the term grounded is used a lot these days but I dont believe it would work effectivly, stop them their pocket money, explain to them how wrong it is what they may have done, ban them from watching the T.V, the list goes on, and I for one would not like to be bringing up children in todays world of no respect , and drug taking voilence.

 

Years ago when my children were young , the school they attended was run by a headmaster who made sure his school was never disgraced by badly behaved pupils, or they would suffer the consequences. My chidren have grown up to be fine citizens, but I do now fear for my grandchildren, and what may face them, in a country where law and order is being eroded by soft punishment and temptation. chas

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euroanchor - 2006-12-19 4:07 PM One of the biggest problems is that these thugs and trouble makers are now second generation, i.e. their parents were just the same except for one difference, the kids today know that the law can very rarely touch them, or indeed have the manpower to do so. The CPS have adopted the attitude that unless a conviction is secure, then dont go to court with it. How many stories do we read about youths and kids terrorising neighbourhoods . These are 10 - 16 year olds, would they have gotten away with it 10 years ago, I doubt it very much. I, for certain know that in the village I live in, trouble makers like that would have received a severe warning from one or two of the locals, and if it happened again then just punishment would be served. Now I certainly do not condone violence or vigilanties, however, there was very little trouble, because the trouble makers knew that there would not be any court reports or holidays from social services. And they certainly didn't do it again. The breakdown of the community spirit we once enjoyed, has played a big part in the "anti social behaviour" of today, when I was young it was called illegal activities, and punished as such. All I can say is god help us in another 10 years or so.

And that, very neatly, explains why the answer has to be reform via education, and not just perpetual incarceration.  Each criminal can have any number of children, who, it seems, are more likely to go wrong that the children of more law abiding people.  Thus, by merely locking them away, we do nothing to change their attitudes and the problem grows.

Those who cannot/will not be educated, must be taken out of circulation.  However, the "lock them up and throw away the key" approach provides no hope of respite or release, which is liable to make the prison authority's job almost impossible.  If the prisoner has no hope, how is he to be controlled?  If we brutalise him, how far should we allow the warder to go?  How should we expect the prison warder to behave outside prison, if his main means of controlling his charges is brutality?  Can this work, or do we simply add to the number of those who consider brutality a normal part of life?  That is why they have the tellys, to distract them and make them manageable, so that the warders don't have to resort to these tried and tested - and failed, regimes.

The prisoner must surely know that his only chance of release is to reform, and that once released, if he goes back, he will have to work very much harder for his release than before.  It's a kind of aversion therapy, like Pavlov's dogs.  Stick and carrot, to mix a metaphor or two: but always both.

I'm not talking evangalism here, the prisoner has to be forced to take responsibility for his actions.  He has to be given the education he so often lacks, that so often seems to make him unemployable.  If he cannot accept the need to reform, or to learn, then he must remain locked away until deemed harmless.  However, he must continue to understand and believe that his eventual release is entirely dependent upon himself, his attitudes and his behaviour.  In other words, release is in his own hands.  Accept that and play by the rules and you get out, refuse and you stay in, just like a naughty child.

Those who merely pretend they have changed will go back soon enough, and should find that they no longer have any sentence other than to be imprisoned until the authorities are satisfied they have reformed.  Each time they go back, it will become more difficult to get out, but it will always be up to themselves whether they are released or not.

Sentencing is too easy.  The prisoner has an end date in sight.  All he has to do is toe the line for a while and he's out.  First offence, maybe, but, thereafter, sentenced to be locked up until reformed.

Hard labour, chain gangs, transportation, beheading, hanging, forced labour, oubliettes, we've tried them all, and crime has continued virtually unabated however harsh the punishment.

There simply has to be a better way.

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Actually Chas your right . I never hit the children because WE have NEVER HAD TO. Because from day dot our word was law .

I taught them good from bad & I have good kids. When I say to my lad where you going & he replies just for a game of footy mum . He gets a talking to everytime (Nag Nag) Dont go near the shops stay out of trouble never run from the police you would have nothing to hide if your mates get in trouble you better not get involved ...Do not stand around the local shops and intimidate old people or any people . I know I have a well balanced set of kid's .

One thing that did used to worry me was I thought perhaps I am bringing them up with a disadvantage though. Reason I'm teaching my kids right & wrong good & bad . I did wonder at times if any others were teaching theirs . Spoke with my husband and we agreeded that it was not a strong enough argument . We brought them up not dragged them up. The other parents can do as they wish I know my kids know right from wrong.

And all the school reports say it as well both kid's .pleasant polite lovely children you have . But back to the question I'd give em a slap so hard they wouldn't get up ? but then I wouldn't have to ....Anyway I won't have the govnerment telling me how to bring up my children . They don't live in the real world ..........they have not a clue .

 

Just the though of my old man shouting at my son brings tears to my son's eye's .No I have children who would end up getting stabbed in order to save some old man/lady or anyone come to think of it..

 

Proud of my kid's I bet not every parent can say that. ;-)

 

Ps that's not to say that I think they are perfect I bet you they can both swear & curse with their mates . Not in our ear shot or an adults .

crafty not daft ...........right & wrong. you could say sly I'm just trying to say they have manners. Finally any copper at my door would be welcome to give em a slap themselves.

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Guest Frank Wilkinson

A common argument by those opposed to the death penalty is that there are many people on American death-rows, so it obviously doesn't work. Rubbish! You may as well argue that Britain's drink-drive laws don't work because a number of people still drink and drive. Yes of course they do, but for everyone who risks it there are hundreds who do not drink and drive because the deterrent in place is too awful to consider for most of us.

This is the same with a death penalty. It is commonsense that it will deter many people but it will never deter everyone, simply because some people are arrogant and believe that they will not be caught. In fact most of the people who end up on death-row in the U.S. are the ones who really deserve it. The gangsters and professional criminals to whom life is cheap and who think nothing of cold bloodedly executing others in pursuit of their criminal ambition.

Another argument is that these same people don't care about their own life and losing it will never deter them. Rubbish again! Just watch how, when on death row, they will use every artifice and every appeal process to stay their execution.

In the U.K. from 1900, homicides (murder, manslaughter and infanticide) were between about 200 and 450 per annum and were at a low point of under 300 around the time that capital punishment was abolished. Since then the graph has gone one way - up, up, and even farther up and is now nearing 1000 per annum.

Another liberal argument is this: if the state sets an example by treating criminals humanely, that example will eventually percolate through to society and we would all become more civilised. Well, we've all seen the result of the great liberal experiment haven't we. Every kind of violent crime on the increase - gangs of feral youths roaming our streets and transport systems, and a sickening brutality evidenced every week by criminals who will knife or shoot their victims without a second thought.

Ask the husband of Marion Bates, the Nottingham jeweller who was callously executed during a robbery that would have netted the perpetrators a relatively small sum. Ask the husband of PC Sharon Beshenivsky, shot during the Bradford travel agency robbery, ask the fiancee of Tom ap Rhys Pryce, the London lawyer, who died after being stabbed repeatedly by two street thugs. All they wanted was his Oyster Card and his cellphone and his life meant nothing to them.

The Great Liberal Experiment has been a disaster. Drugs are now responsible directly or indirectly for 70-80% of all crime, but do we crack down on dealers with tough new laws? China started to have a drugs problem so the authorities rounded up 6000 dealers and after due process shot them in the back of the head. I recently drove from Malaysia into Singapore to be greeted at the border crossing by huge signs warning that the penalty for smuggling drugs into Singapore is death. The odd foolhardy idiot still tries it but China and Singapore have no serious drug problems.

We have a huge problem in this country with liberal politicians and an even more liberal judiciary. Crimes for which people would have hanged a couple of generations ago can now just merit a few years in prison. Just a month ago a man killed his young child purely to spite the mother with whom he was at odds. The judge said that he couldn't think of a more heinous crime and warned the killer that he would serve at least sixteen years in prison! My God, what do you have to do to get a really long sentence.

I would double the punishment for every crime. First offence, let's say, one year. Next offence two years, third offence 4 years, after six visits to court they'd be looking at 32 years, added on to the 31 that they'd already served.

I would introduce capital punishment for first-degree homicide and drug dealing and I would jail for life anyone found in possession of a firearm when in the commission of a crime, whether they'd used it or not.

I could go on and one but as well as stricter punishment I would make education and training compulsory in our prisons. If they come in illiterate I would try to send them out able to read and write properly, and even with some skills so that they can be employed on goverment projects requiring builders, plumbers etc.

But above all, I would put the welfare of decent citizens way above that of the scum currently ruining the lives of many and I would do everything to make us safe again, in our homes and on our streets - and if this means offending a few bleeding-heart liberals, then so be it.

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Hi all,

 

I was going to stay out of this subject but just had to throw in my two penneth.

 

It is interesting that none of the entries so far have mentioned the following.

 

The break down of religious guidance in family and at school.

 

Envy politics and social activity.

 

The constant barrage of soft porn, violence, bad behaviour and foul language from television and film. I am not saying that our children will be heavily influenced but that this gives the impression of being normal behaviour. As for the 9:00pm watershed, has no one heard of Video/DVD recorders or going round to a mates house where the parents are less choosy about what their children are allowed to watch.

 

The drug culture and not just in the poor housing estates.

 

Easy access to alchohol in such as super markets. Our local youth club had a drink problem because older kids were selling drink and probably worse to the younger kids. The youth leaders do nothing to stop it.

 

One point to pick up from the previous postings is that not all criminals are low intelligence or from dysfunctional homes. There are many examples of criminal activity from the so called educated middle classes and professional workforce. Remember the football hooligans a few years ago (Was it Cambridge United?) who turned out to have a fair sprinkling of Accountants, Solicitors, Medical staff and Civil Engineers etc.

 

I am not sure what the solution is, if there is one. Perhaps the call for severe penalty, hard labour, birching or even the death penalty may have some effect but all I know is that somehow the rot has to be stopped.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

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Vote for Frank Wilkinson he will see us right ! good on you Frank, only thing is you will have to form your own independant party, as all the partys have no back bone, and of course , the house of lords is a no-no they will only pass the tea and cakes in the afternoon, thats if they wake up in time for tea! Regards chas
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chas - 2006-12-19 5:44 PM Vote for Frank Wilkinson he will see us right ! good on you Frank, only thing is you will have to form your own independant party, as all the partys have no back bone, and of course , the house of lords is a no-no they will only pass the tea and cakes in the afternoon, thats if they wake up in time for tea! Regards chas

Ooh, Chas: does that mean we can do politics next?  I do hope so!

House of Lords (AKA second chamber) reform.  Get that right and the crime and punishment/reform issue will be solved in no time. 

Now, what I think we need is a fully elected second chamber.  However, I do not think the selection of candidates should be as for the Commons, and I'm fairly sure the voting should not be one man one vote.

Anyone?

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Brian Kirby - 2006-12-19 6:06 PMNow, what I think we need is a fully elected second chamber.  However, I do not think the selection of candidates should be as for the Commons, and I'm fairly sure the voting should not be one man one vote.

Anyone?

No thanks Brian, and though i,ve enjoyed all the comments on this thread i,ve overdone my quota on grey matter for the day. I think i,ll go with Frank on this one, and while we should never underestimate the problems mentioned, I would just like to say that things are not that bad ,and you will find most youngsters (and adults) are a pretty decent lot, and the small number of malcontents are something we just have to put up with. Nothing changes. Howard.
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I normally avoid these threads and stick to factual topics rather than opinion, but Brian is apparently outnumbered - so - - - - -

go get 'em Brian, :-> I'm with you - just wish we could find the answer - but perhaps that's nirvana!

[interestingly, in the current climate, if you do a web search on nirvana - an incredibly large percentage of the answers are about the band - a sad reflection perhaps *-) ]

 

B-)

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The main thing, I guess, is that we all feel the present situation is highly unsatisfactory and needs to be changed. 

I think those who feel the answer is to "toughen up" the penalites are wrong, because we have been there before and it has never yet seemed to work.  Just one last try - well maybe.  I know I've stated it ad nauseam above, but for me the answer has to be a new approach because I have no faith in the effectiveness of present and earlier measures to deal with the problem. 

However, since I guess none of us will ever be asked to implement a solution, we may as well just settle down for Christmas like good children.  So, whichever prison you find yourselves in, Merry Christmas!!

Shame about the second house, though :-)

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The govement say that they dont believe in hitting children or fighting violence with violence as it dosen't work! Then why are we at war Irac ect?????. michele IMO has the right idea. I say bring back hanging at least when they are hung they will not kill anymore NOT like they ARE doing to-day releast to kill again.Dunblane killing as terrible as it was this gov attacked the GUN! It is not the gun it's the t*ss*r behind it all it did for hand guns was to push it underground & make the under-world richer.Here in Manchester there on again about the shooting of that (inocent) young lad ( watch crimwatch to-night ) I had a pub in that area couln't wait to get out, gang warfare/drugs/carjacking/robbery & this is by kids rideding about on push bikes.One Sunday afternoon when we shut at 3pm I went upstairs and looked out of the window & there was a dealer selling "packs" by the doz he had a wad of notes that i would loved to banked on a Friday, Where was the police? know were & I dont blame them, there must have been about 70 of them all milling around for drugs ect. So we have to get real about probs in this country, lets bring our lads home and let them help to clean our streets up like they do in other countrys. again just my opinion but dont forget I've been there & can tee shirt it.
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Hi I live in Ipswich where the five girls have been murdered, and our shop is on the edge of the red light area, so we do see what goes on.

 

As has been said on the news they only do what they do because of a drug habit, so shooting drug dealers seems fair to me, they destroy lives so why not destroy theirs.

 

We have 1300 police in Suffolk with seven day 24 hour coverage, sickness and holidays, how many does that equate to on the ground at any one time over the whole county? Not enough in my opinion.

 

Can't really see anything wrong with Franks ideas. My biggest gripe is financial, why should I pay to keep Ian Huntley alive for 30 years? or Sutcliff? or any of the others, if people feel we shouldn't kill as a civilised society then stick them on a deserted island (there's one in Scotland they used to test germ warfare in the 2ww) and chuck them a food parcel every month.

 

Olley

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F**** the food parcel ? :'(

At least they get to die better than what they did to their victims

 

Oh forgot Stop the imigrants spend more on prisons chuck all the weird parasites out have ID cards no job out you go. nothing in the pot no take out of the pot then . Wonder why they all come for this country songatte musn't of been to their liking then. WEll because if you get knicked here you dont even see a judge let alone a prison .

If you steel cut there bloody arms off bet you would half it overnight.

I dont know if I am right or left I just me........... my own thoughts.

 

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Well, hangers, floggers and transporters it seems after that lot!  So what we need then is perpetual war, because that is where you forge the real men, public hangings to maximise deterrence, the stocks, the ducking stool, the pillory, and on top convert Britain to a cross between Australia where, in more enlightened times, we used to send the criminals and Saudi, whre they chop off the odd arm, and train the best terrorists. 

And that, you think, will work? 

The problem seems to me to be that from time to time, for all sorts of reasons, the wrong person gets convicted.

Bit tough if you've just topped them - as has happened a few times. 

Ah, the state killed the wrong man - but it was in the interests of justice.  Shame.  Move on.  OK, even if it was you.  No protest.  Probably a low life anyway.  Best not to ask, really, just in case.  Oh, and of course, how do you get to hang people with such an effective deterrent working.  You mean they still kill?  Not really a deterrent then, just an eye for an eye.  Don't worry chaps, it's bound to work eventually.  If we can just make it tough enough.  Maybe we should just shoot them instead of arresting them.  No trial, no judges, no expensive barristers, you could even send the relatives the bill for the bullet, just like the Chinese.  That'd be bound to work, wouldn't it?  Really get the message across.  Works in China doesn't it?  No?  What, they still steal, rape, and murder?  Well what next?

C'mon guys and gals, you're flogging a dead horse (or criminal)!  It has never worked, and it never will.  If criminals were that clever, they'd have worked out the odds already.  They'd never get caught.  Yes there are a few clever ones who commit complex frauds (Maxwell?), but they know at worst they only risk a few years in a nice open prison with the money safely in some Swiss account where they can get to it later. 

The others, for the most part act in a rage, while drunk (self inflicted, so no excuses please), on drugs or steroids (ditto), are plain stupid, are mentally feeble and are led, or are, by degrees, mad.  They don't weigh the odds, don't consider the penalty; they just act on someone else's plan or on the spur of the moment.  There is no consideration of the consequences of their actions until afterwards.  There can be no deterrence for these.  They have to be re-educated to stop, because prison only stops them while they're in, they learn new tricks while in, and the majority just do it again and again while out.

There has to be a better way.

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Brian Kirby - 2006-12-20 3:12 PM

 

 

The problem seems to me to be that from time to time, for all sorts of reasons, the wrong person gets convicted.

Bit tough if you've just topped them - as has happened a few times. 

Ah, the state killed the wrong man -.

Good point Brian, but you are talking 40 odd years ago, when The UK still had the death penalty, but what they didn't have then was DNA technology and the type of forensic (?) advances we now have. It would be highly unlikely a wrongful death would occur.
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