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We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
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userStuartO
Posted: 17 June 2020 7:04 AM
Subject: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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It's become clear that we, as a society, still have a way to go to deal with what's now being called structural racism, which is obstructing the path to genuinely equal opportunity. There are blacks who have aptitude but for one reason or another they don't really get a chance to thrive and prosper. Some of the things we need to deal with are the causal factors of what might be called collateral damage within or black communities, such as the undue prevelance of anti-social and criminal behaviour; some blacks who end up in gangs or on drugs never stood a chance of escaping that lifestyle, such was the context in which they grew up. So we, as a society, need to do more and we need to do it better. We need to elect governments which will do more and better and we taxpayers need to pay the costs.

But we also need a solution to the problems of Bad Black Behaviour, because it's having a substantial and growing impact on our society as a whole. For a conspicuous example there was a news clip about the resumption of non-essential shopping on Oxford Street yesterday which mostly showed orderly queuing - except for a bunch of (noticably all black) youths completely ignoring the queuing arrangements and social distancing as they were barging like a bunch of would-be looters on the rampage, into the Nike Shop. There was no comment from the reporting journalists about it being an unruly mob of black youths, as somehow we can no longer comment on examples of Bad Black Behaviour.

Maybe their upbringing had some role in developing that sort of anti-social behaviour but it is nevertheless unacceptable behaviour and it is happening on a scale which presents real problems for other members of society. So we should not simply accept it as if it were something which will disappear as structural racism is dealt with. Likewise it's no use just labelling the over-representation of blacks in our jails as if they were there by accident; they are there because they have been convicted of criminal offences which needed to be dealt with.

There have been examples of Good Black Behaviour too of course, for example the black guy who, escorted and protected by a surrounding group of friends, rescued a white counter-demonstrator who had got isolated and was "getting a kicking" and carried him to safety. But we are nevertheless suffering too much Bad Black Behaviour in our society and a sense of injustice among blacks for their continuing experiences of what they see as racism doesn't excuse it in my eyes. Cerainly not the violent protests and the plainly criminal behaviour such as stealing, vandalising and even looting.

In parallel with steps to deal with structural racism which disadvantages blacks, we also deal with Bad Black Behaviour. That too is a structural problem.

Perhaps it needs a carrot and stick approach, taking as much care as possible, when we take out the stick, to avoid the use of manifestly excessive force, such as been a recurring problem in the USA. The most recent case of a policeman killing an escaping suspect who had stolen, used and was still armed with a police taser weapon. But the policeman still resorted to using a lethal weapon on a fleeing suspect who was no longer threatening him. The police could have let him go and caught him again later but this police officer killed him instead.

We have a head start on the USA because we have a better policing tradition and our police are still not all armed - and those who are armed are better trained and they know that if they shoot someone their actions will always be scrutinised. But our system of policing does not wave the big stick very credibly and so when we have Bad Black Behaviour in the form of mob rule (or Bad Non-Black Behaviour as a mob either) we end up with too many police being injured and too many Bad Blacks or Bad Non-Blacks escaping justice.

I keep using this term Bad Blacks deliberately; we don't want our police brutalising ordinary, orderly blacks, any more than we want them beating ordinary browns or whites or yellows. And we don't want all our police armed. But if we have to use force to maintain law and order then I think we need to make it overwhelming and effective. So we need to develop the resources to be able to do so. For example the way mounted police were deployed recently during BLM demonstrations had the effect of making them targets rather than using their power. If we need water cannons let's get some. If we need a clear way of signalling to a crowd that enough is enough let's develop one - let's sound a portable siren to make it loud and clear. If as a last resort we need to use mounted police to disperse a riot, let them charge with batons drawn to scare the hell out of the rioters.

We cannot pussy-foot around when there is riotous behaviour brewing. In the present context we are experiencing Bad Black Behaviour (and other sorts) and we need to face up to dealing with it effectively.

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 June 2020 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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Stuart, I'm sorry, but although I accept that it is well intended, I think your post partially illustrates the problem. I'm sure you won't agree, but it comes across to me, in a number of areas, as racially prejudiced. It is those "unconscious" racial prejudices that underlie much of the unrest we presently see among our "non-white" communities.
usermalc d
Posted: 17 June 2020 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 
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Brian Kirby - 2020-06-17 3:11 PM

Stuart, I'm sorry, but although I accept that it is well intended, I think your post partially illustrates the problem. I'm sure you won't agree, but it comes across to me, in a number of areas, as racially prejudiced. It is those "unconscious" racial prejudices that underlie much of the unrest we presently see among our "non-white" communities.



Agreed.

We need a solution for ALL bad behaviour, regardless of colour.

( That would automatically take care of any problem that Stuart is concerned about ).

I think water cannon is very much a last resort - how do you hit the people who are rioting, and avoid the ones who are just on their way home from work ?
If you want to turn the public against the police that is a good way to do it.

userjumpstart
Posted: 17 June 2020 4:20 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 
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Racism is not just a Black and White issue. There are many forms,Kurds, Palestinians, a lot in India and so on. Even in America it isn’t just Blacks.
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 June 2020 4:50 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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malc d - 2020-06-17 4:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-17 3:11 PM

Stuart, I'm sorry, but although I accept that it is well intended, I think your post partially illustrates the problem. I'm sure you won't agree, but it comes across to me, in a number of areas, as racially prejudiced. It is those "unconscious" racial prejudices that underlie much of the unrest we presently see among our "non-white" communities.



Agreed.

We need a solution for ALL bad behaviour, regardless of colour.

( That would automatically take care of any problem that Stuart is concerned about ).

I think water cannon is very much a last resort - how do you hit the people who are rioting, and avoid the ones who are just on their way home from work ?
If you want to turn the public against the police that is a good way to do it.


Yes i didn't notice far right rioters being described as white or Bad White Behaviour fighting police in London when there was no BLM rally on! It seems much stereotyping going on in Stuarts post.

Regards water cannon, Johnson frittered away thousands of taxpayers money on three water cannon vehicles which May as Home Sec had declared illegal and they were sold off for scrap at a £300k loss.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/19/boris-johnson-unused-water-cannon-sold-for-scrap-at-300000-loss
userBirdbrain
Posted: 17 June 2020 6:16 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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The misrepresentation in numbers of blacks in our prisons suggests we have a "Bad Black Behaviour" issue in this country and in other countries ... Unfortunately its a difficult subject for some to discuss and they would much rather suggest racism by those who bring up the topic in an attempt to shut it down , its an old trick , some times its done loudly by the usual fella screaming 'Raciiiist' or sometimes its done a little more subtly as in this case but still with the same intention , to shut down discussion ... They , the squad would much rather keep quiet about awkward subjects such as Muslim sex gangs and we all know how that ended , well thats not ended has it
userStuartO
Posted: 17 June 2020 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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It's quite difficult to write anything about what I have called Bad Black Behaviour because there is an obvious risk of being called racist, simply because I'm not saying, as many do say, that black people are never really culpable, because they are all victims; they're just deprived and misunderstood.

So I started this thread with considerable trepidation - and indeed one or two have taken the line of accusing me of being racist, despite me knowing there was a real risk of this and being as careful as I could to keep making the balancing qualifier or comparable. It's much easier if you are to be a public commentator to avoid saying anything which can be taken to be in any way racist, which is of course why all our politicians steer clear of anything which cannot be tackled without implying some criticism of at least some blacks. Browns too of course, remembering what happened in Rotherham. And whites too of course, thinking of the stereotypical fat man in a string vest in the wheelie bin sculpture on the site of the Bristol statue which was pulled down.

But I happen to think that finding a solution to the widescale bad behaviour in our society )especially that among racially homogeneous groups) is prerequisite to finding a solution to the overall problems or racism. This is the big big unaddressed problem in dealing with racism because it's always being swept under the carpet and yet it is clearly a big issue. Very large numbers of blacks are ending up in jail. It might be less contentious to say that the justice system must be harder on blacks etc but is there any evidence for this? Don't the sentencing guidelines control what the judges dish out these days and won't those, together with our non-elected judges who don't have to play to the crowd be preventing serious unfairness?

So, I don't believe I'm in any way racist in suggesting that Black Bad Behaviour needs recognising as one of the big problems and needs addressing properly - by setting aside the politically correct, rose-tinted glasses with which we are currently expected to look at these sort of issues. Why are so many blacks such under-achievers in our society when there are some very high achieving blacks?

I want to see a constructive solution to a racial problem - why isn't anyone coming up with constructive ideas? Why are you guys just focusing on which bits of what I have posted can be construed as racist?

Edited by StuartO 2020-06-17 6:30 PM
userBirdbrain
Posted: 17 June 2020 6:44 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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StuartO - 2020-06-17 6:28 PM

It's quite difficult to write anything about what I have called Bad Black Behaviour because there is an obvious risk of being called racist, simply because I'm not saying, as many do say, that black people are never really culpable, because they are all victims; they're just deprived and misunderstood.

So I started this thread with considerable trepidation - and indeed one or two have taken the line of accusing me of being racist, despite me knowing there was a real risk of this and being as careful as I could to keep making the balancing qualifier or comparable. It's much easier if you are to be a public commentator to avoid saying anything which can be taken to be in any way racist, which is of course why all our politicians steer clear of anything which cannot be tackled without implying some criticism of at least some blacks. Browns too of course, remembering what happened in Rotherham. And whites too of course, thinking of the stereotypical fat man in a string vest in the wheelie bin sculpture on the site of the Bristol statue which was pulled down.

But I happen to think that finding a solution to the widescale bad behaviour in our society )especially that among racially homogeneous groups) is prerequisite to finding a solution to the overall problems or racism. This is the big big unaddressed problem in dealing with racism because it's always being swept under the carpet and yet it is clearly a big issue. Very large numbers of blacks are ending up in jail. It might be less contentious to say that the justice system must be harder on blacks etc but is there any evidence for this? Don't the sentencing guidelines control what the judges dish out these days and won't those, together with our non-elected judges who don't have to play to the crowd be preventing serious unfairness?

So, I don't believe I'm in any way racist in suggesting that Black Bad Behaviour needs recognising as one of the big problems and needs addressing properly - by setting aside the politically correct, rose-tinted glasses with which we are currently expected to look at these sort of issues. Why are so many blacks such under-achievers in our society when there are some very high achieving blacks?

I want to see a constructive solution to a racial problem - why isn't anyone coming up with constructive ideas? Why are you guys just focusing on which bits of what I have posted can be construed as racist?


You aren't racist Stuart and nothing in your post is racist ... Its disgraceful that a supposed intelligent fella feels the need to suggest you are racist but not a surprise ... Would it be racist to suggest some Brits behave badly abroad during summer ??? ... No of course it wouldnt ... Would it be racist to say we have a bad behaviour problem with some of our football fans who are mainly white ??? ... no of course it wouldnt ... It makes a refreshing change for someone other than me or Dave getting the Squad 'Raciiiiiiist' treatment though
userjumpstart
Posted: 17 June 2020 7:01 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 
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Brian Kirby - 2020-06-17 3:11 PM

Stuart, I'm sorry, but although I accept that it is well intended, I think your post partially illustrates the problem. I'm sure you won't agree, but it comes across to me, in a number of areas, as racially prejudiced. It is those "unconscious" racial prejudices that underlie much of the unrest we presently see among our "non-white" communities.[/QUOTE

Surely if it’s well intended it’s not racist.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 June 2020 7:13 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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To understand, I think you have first to try to see the world through their eyes. And no Stuart, I was very careful not to call you racist. I think your expectations got in the way of your reading of what I wrote. What I said was that it came across to me, in a number of areas, as "racially prejudiced". I did not say "as the work of a racist".

I'll tell you a personal story. When I was in my 20s and at college in London, we had a black lad in our group who mixed easily with everyone, was intelligent, sharp, and had an infectious sense of humour. He was just one of the gang, and the only difference with the rest of us was the colour of his skin, which no-one ever seemed to notice. He was just an English student who happened to have a black skin.

We left college and went our various ways, and I met him again in connection with work, so we had a bit of a catch-up. His personality had changed noticeably: he was withdrawn and guarded. I mentioned that he seemed to have lost some of his sense of fun, and he agreed. He explained that some years previously, as he'd passed a pub on his way to his home in south London, someone had burst out of the pub, pushed a glass into his face, called him a black bastard, and run off down the road. He had not said, or done, anything to provoke the attack, and didn't know, and hadn't previously seen, his attacker. I then noticed the, by then faded, scarring on his face. To say I was shocked by the story, and embarrassed at having provoked it, would be an understatement!

Now, I'm definitely not claiming that his experience was typical of the experience of black skinned people but, if you'd had that experience, it would be likely to have a lasting impact on how you see the native population of the UK, and it had. That bright, sparky, lad was unsure even of an old college mate who he'd previously sat around a table and joked with.

I assume you heard Pritti Patel speak in parliament the other day of her childhood experiences of bullying and name calling because she had brown skin? Imagine going to school to face that every day.

People with dark skins get called names because of their dark skins, they get side-lined because of their dark skins, they are treated differently by white skinned strangers every day in all sorts of petty ways - but they notice it, and they come to expect it. The older ones, especially from London, will remember the "no Irish, no dogs, no blacks" notices outside boarding houses. People ask them whether they are cold in winter, when no white skinned person would be asked the same. Small, silly, things that just serve to remind them that they are different, even when there is no malice intended.

That is what I think we have to understand. It isn't an excuse, it is just the reality for so many, and among those many some begin to feel resentful and alienated, and begin to fight back in various ways. They recede into an alternative culture that, for the greater part, we have pushed them into.

That is what we have to understand before we begin thinking of how we are going to get them to behave "more like us". Water cannon are never going to solve that. Apologies for typos - no time to edit!
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 June 2020 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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StuartO - 2020-06-17 6:28 PM

But I happen to think that finding a solution to the widescale bad behaviour in our society )especially that among racially homogeneous groups) is prerequisite to finding a solution to the overall problems or racism. This is the big big unaddressed problem in dealing with racism because it's always being swept under the carpet and yet it is clearly a big issue. Why are so many blacks such under-achievers in our society when there are some very high achieving blacks?

I want to see a constructive solution to a racial problem - why isn't anyone coming up with constructive ideas? Why are you guys just focusing on which bits of what I have posted can be construed as racist?

I've never seen 'bad behaviour' as a race exclusive issue though as it runs throughout every race with a whole raft of causes from bad parenting, deprived areas, mob mentality (yes gangs come in all skin colours including white), lack of meaningful employment and so on. You ask, "why are so many blacks such under-achievers in our society when there are some very high achieving blacks?" Though i've never been interested in the sport i often wonder why such a large number of premier league footballers are black British or from overseas countries? League clubs would fall apart without them yet the racial abuse from some of the so called fans is disgusting.

Once again though, why do you see achievement as racially based? I just don't get that at all. There are many folk doing minimum wage or zero hour contract work. For some it probably suits but i suspect many young feel they are living on a knife edge between that and one step away from welfare and being kicked out of their rented flat.

The solution to 'a racial problem'? Well i already gave my answer to that before in another race thread you made but you said it was just 'meaningless'. Britain is a diverse multi cultural country and the sooner everyone embraces that, the better, but until they do we're always going to have hot heads raging against folk from ethnic minorities often stereotyping and always making sweeping generalisations.
userStuartO
Posted: 17 June 2020 9:47 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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Brian Kirby - 2020-06-17 3:11 PM

Stuart, I'm sorry, but although I accept that it is well intended, I think your post partially illustrates the problem. I'm sure you won't agree, but it comes across to me, in a number of areas, as racially prejudiced. It is those "unconscious" racial prejudices that underlie much of the unrest we presently see among our "non-white" communities.


Brian, it takes a small mind to bring such narrow focus on these big issues.
userArchiesgrandad
Posted: 18 June 2020 12:55 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 
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Do we not need to find a solution to all those people engaging in Bad Behaviour, regardless of race, creed, colour or anything else.
Politicians can pass all the laws they like, and the law enforcement agencies, I'm sure, do all they can to enact those laws, but until we the people are prepared to back them up and support them they will be fighting an uphill battle. We need to work out the way to impress on all our society that it is us, the people, who need to make it possible for the law enforcement agencies to do their job, we need to make it clear that we do not wish to tolerate bad behaviour by anyone. Let us try to discourage drunkeness, let us make sure that everyone understands that drug taking is not acceptable, do not tolerate dishonesty in any form, find ways to convince people that there are real benefits to living in a peaceful world and that they are, in fact the only people that can make it happen.
No doubt the Libertine Tendancy will all pile in and have a go at me, but surely it is apparent to every thinking person that our current attitudes are unlikely to bring about much change, so maybe people need to do a radical rethink about what we are prepared to do, and we should not be reluctant to actually do a little thinking for ourselves rather than just assume that everything they read and hear and see in the media is true.
AGD
userjumpstart
Posted: 18 June 2020 7:27 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 
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Brian Kirby - 2020-06-17 7:13 PM

To understand, I think you have first to try to see the world through their eyes. And no Stuart, I was very careful not to call you racist. I think your expectations got in the way of your reading of what I wrote. What I said was that it came across to me, in a number of areas, as "racially prejudiced". I did not say "as the work of a racist".

I'll tell you a personal story. When I was in my 20s and at college in London, we had a black lad in our group who mixed easily with everyone, was intelligent, sharp, and had an infectious sense of humour. He was just one of the gang, and the only difference with the rest of us was the colour of his skin, which no-one ever seemed to notice. He was just an English student who happened to have a black skin.

We left college and went our various ways, and I met him again in connection with work, so we had a bit of a catch-up. His personality had changed noticeably: he was withdrawn and guarded. I mentioned that he seemed to have lost some of his sense of fun, and he agreed. He explained that some years previously, as he'd passed a pub on his way to his home in south London, someone had burst out of the pub, pushed a glass into his face, called him a black bastard, and run off down the road. He had not said, or done, anything to provoke the attack, and didn't know, and hadn't previously seen, his attacker. I then noticed the, by then faded, scarring on his face. To say I was shocked by the story, and embarrassed at having provoked it, would be an understatement!

Now, I'm definitely not claiming that his experience was typical of the experience of black skinned people but, if you'd had that experience, it would be likely to have a lasting impact on how you see the native population of the UK, and it had. That bright, sparky, lad was unsure even of an old college mate who he'd previously sat around a table and joked with.

I assume you heard Pritti Patel speak in parliament the other day of her childhood experiences of bullying and name calling because she had brown skin? Imagine going to school to face that every day.

People with dark skins get called names because of their dark skins, they get side-lined because of their dark skins, they are treated differently by white skinned strangers every day in all sorts of petty ways - but they notice it, and they come to expect it. The older ones, especially from London, will remember the "no Irish, no dogs, no blacks" notices outside boarding houses. People ask them whether they are cold in winter, when no white skinned person would be asked the same. Small, silly, things that just serve to remind them that they are different, even when there is no malice intended.

That is what I think we have to understand. It isn't an excuse, it is just the reality for so many, and among those many some begin to feel resentful and alienated, and begin to fight back in various ways. They recede into an alternative culture that, for the greater part, we have pushed them into.

That is what we have to understand before we begin thinking of how we are going to get them to behave "more like us". Water cannon are never going to solve that. Apologies for typos - no time to edit!


To be honest Brian you are doing what you complain of. “ how we are going to get them to behave more like us”. That surely is dangerously close to a racist remark.
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 June 2020 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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jumpstart - 2020-06-18 7:27 AM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-17 7:13 PM

To understand, I think you have first to try to see the world through their eyes. And no Stuart, I was very careful not to call you racist. I think your expectations got in the way of your reading of what I wrote. What I said was that it came across to me, in a number of areas, as "racially prejudiced". I did not say "as the work of a racist".

I'll tell you a personal story. When I was in my 20s and at college in London, we had a black lad in our group who mixed easily with everyone, was intelligent, sharp, and had an infectious sense of humour. He was just one of the gang, and the only difference with the rest of us was the colour of his skin, which no-one ever seemed to notice. He was just an English student who happened to have a black skin.

We left college and went our various ways, and I met him again in connection with work, so we had a bit of a catch-up. His personality had changed noticeably: he was withdrawn and guarded. I mentioned that he seemed to have lost some of his sense of fun, and he agreed. He explained that some years previously, as he'd passed a pub on his way to his home in south London, someone had burst out of the pub, pushed a glass into his face, called him a black bastard, and run off down the road. He had not said, or done, anything to provoke the attack, and didn't know, and hadn't previously seen, his attacker. I then noticed the, by then faded, scarring on his face. To say I was shocked by the story, and embarrassed at having provoked it, would be an understatement!

Now, I'm definitely not claiming that his experience was typical of the experience of black skinned people but, if you'd had that experience, it would be likely to have a lasting impact on how you see the native population of the UK, and it had. That bright, sparky, lad was unsure even of an old college mate who he'd previously sat around a table and joked with.

I assume you heard Pritti Patel speak in parliament the other day of her childhood experiences of bullying and name calling because she had brown skin? Imagine going to school to face that every day.

People with dark skins get called names because of their dark skins, they get side-lined because of their dark skins, they are treated differently by white skinned strangers every day in all sorts of petty ways - but they notice it, and they come to expect it. The older ones, especially from London, will remember the "no Irish, no dogs, no blacks" notices outside boarding houses. People ask them whether they are cold in winter, when no white skinned person would be asked the same. Small, silly, things that just serve to remind them that they are different, even when there is no malice intended.

That is what I think we have to understand. It isn't an excuse, it is just the reality for so many, and among those many some begin to feel resentful and alienated, and begin to fight back in various ways. They recede into an alternative culture that, for the greater part, we have pushed them into.

That is what we have to understand before we begin thinking of how we are going to get them to behave "more like us". Water cannon are never going to solve that. Apologies for typos - no time to edit!


To be honest Brian you are doing what you complain of. “ how we are going to get them to behave more like us”. That surely is dangerously close to a racist remark.


Ooops .........

Brian's walked into his own minefield ..........

userStuartO
Posted: 18 June 2020 9:11 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own. We've been multicultural (and politically correct) for half a generation at least and we've still got black ghettos and high black unemployment and crime so that's not solving itself simply because we're more multicultural. And when I pointed out that there are high achieving blacks I deliberately didn't refer to high earning sportsmen because it isn't just a question of blacks with athletic skills being successful - there are some very clever blacks in prominent positions these days. But we've still got disproportionately high crime, gang behaviour and failure to make progress in employment among the majority of blacks in UK, so why is that not improving? We've put effort and money into it and it hasn't worked so we're not getting it right. And we're suffering anti-social behaviour and we're holding far too many blacks in prison because of these failures. Our blacks are never going to develop their full potential in our modern society under their own cultural and intellectual steam and as a society we are clearly failing to help our blacks in the right ways.

And it isn't just that the average black is too thick and too lazy to work well unless cornered compared with other races because there are thick and lazy whites, browns and yellows too. There's a big problem in Lancashire with young men of asian etnicity who have grown up being spoiled by their mothers for cultural reasons and lots of them fail miserably when they enter work - partly because they don't want to try making any effort.

Races, measured comparatively as racial groups, do show differences in potential to thrive so we do need to take account of those differences when we address their different needs, otherwise we'll never give them genuinely equal opportunities in life in our multicultural society. Historically whites have done relatively well as a race in recent centuries but that wasn't always the case (Asia was far ahead of the West for a long time) and it certainly wasn't because white are cleverer because whites come out top in inter-racial comparisons of the capacity to make progress and thrive. Note that I am avoiding the use of "intelligence" as a useful or reliable measure because quite part from the technical difficulties of measuring comparative intelligence, there's far more to the qualities and skills needed to make a success of life than IQ. I've known some intelligent people who were pretty useless in life.

Brian is accused of wanting to make the blacks develop into something "more like us". Well if the majority of blacks are to have the potential to thrive and prosper in our modern, developed, multicultural society maybe that does mean they have to learn how to cope and thrive more effectively - and that might mean that they have to learn some of "our" ways. If we UK whites (or UK blacks) found ourselves living in Botswana or Jamaica we'd certainly have to learn some new ways and develop some new attitudes too.

Of course it would be wrong to bear down heavily on violent black demonstrations exclusively and our police were tackling the violent counter-protesters in London recently (mainly white as I understand) in the same way and so they should. Nor am I suggesting that we should resort to lethal force. But my argument was that we are not being effective in maintaining law and order so we need to get better at it, so the mob violence can always be nipped promptly in the bud. I want to avoid developing the resources and methods of a police state.

So please stop rehearsing simplistic articles of faith, hope and morality about racial equality and think of practical, workable ways of moving towards genuine equal opportunity for all in our society. I doubt that racial equality (or racial equity as the same fanciful objective is now being called) will ever be achievable because some of us will always make a mess of our lives, no matter what oportunities we've had. But we can at least try to give our blacks (and all other colours) genuine opportunity to develop, achieve their personal potential, thrive and find happiness.
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Posted: 18 June 2020 9:29 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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StuartO - 2020-06-18 9:11 AM

Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own. We've been multicultural (and politically correct) for half a generation at least and we've still got black ghettos and high black unemployment and crime so that's not solving itself simply because we're more multicultural. And when I pointed out that there are high achieving blacks I deliberately didn't refer to high earning sportsmen because it isn't just a question of blacks with athletic skills being successful - there are some very clever blacks in prominent positions these days. But we've still got disproportionately high crime, gang behaviour and failure to make progress in employment among the majority of blacks in UK, so why is that not improving? We've put effort and money into it and it hasn't worked so we're not getting it right. And we're suffering anti-social behaviour and we're holding far too many blacks in prison because of these failures. Our blacks are never going to develop their full potential in our modern society under their own cultural and intellectual steam and as a society we are clearly failing to help our blacks in the right ways.

And it isn't just that the average black is too thick and too lazy to work well unless cornered compared with other races because there are thick and lazy whites, browns and yellows too. There's a big problem in Lancashire with young men of asian etnicity who have grown up being spoiled by their mothers for cultural reasons and lots of them fail miserably when they enter work - partly because they don't want to try making any effort.

Races, measured comparatively as racial groups, do show differences in potential to thrive so we do need to take account of those differences when we address their different needs, otherwise we'll never give them genuinely equal opportunities in life in our multicultural society. Historically whites have done relatively well as a race in recent centuries but that wasn't always the case (Asia was far ahead of the West for a long time) and it certainly wasn't because white are cleverer because whites come out top in inter-racial comparisons of the capacity to make progress and thrive. Note that I am avoiding the use of "intelligence" as a useful or reliable measure because quite part from the technical difficulties of measuring comparative intelligence, there's far more to the qualities and skills needed to make a success of life than IQ. I've known some intelligent people who were pretty useless in life.

Brian is accused of wanting to make the blacks develop into something "more like us". Well if the majority of blacks are to have the potential to thrive and prosper in our modern, developed, multicultural society maybe that does mean they have to learn how to cope and thrive more effectively - and that might mean that they have to learn some of "our" ways. If we UK whites (or UK blacks) found ourselves living in Botswana or Jamaica we'd certainly have to learn some new ways and develop some new attitudes too.

Of course it would be wrong to bear down heavily on violent black demonstrations exclusively and our police were tackling the violent counter-protesters in London recently (mainly white as I understand) in the same way and so they should. Nor am I suggesting that we should resort to lethal force. But my argument was that we are not being effective in maintaining law and order so we need to get better at it, so the mob violence can always be nipped promptly in the bud. I want to avoid developing the resources and methods of a police state.

So please stop rehearsing simplistic articles of faith, hope and morality about racial equality and think of practical, workable ways of moving towards genuine equal opportunity for all in our society. I doubt that racial equality (or racial equity as the same fanciful objective is now being called) will ever be achievable because some of us will always make a mess of our lives, no matter what oportunities we've had. But we can at least try to give our blacks (and all other colours) genuine opportunity to develop, achieve their personal potential, thrive and find happiness.


Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???
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Posted: 18 June 2020 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 
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Unfortunately there are too many examples like Zimbabwe where given the opportunity the result is worse than before and this applies right across Africa. Racial equality in this country should mean equal opportunities. There is discrimination against all sorts of backgrounds in this country apart from Black. Chinese,Polish,Arab or even Labour . Education is the key to developing people’s perceptions and as a multicultural country it is a difficult rocky path and will take many more decades.
My brother married a Jamaican in the uk and had 3 coloured children who all have become successful,one in Canada,one in Uk and one in the US . After remarrying in the US a white American some 16 years ago they fostered a Black baby and then adopted it. So he has one white daughter,one Black son and 3 other coloured children . I told him adopting a Black baby in the US was likely to cause him enormous problems. It appears all these years later that I would seem to be wrong. Education is the key.
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Posted: 18 June 2020 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 
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Birdbrain.
Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???


The answer to your question is us...the UK. My famiily are immigrants. This country has benefitted from it.
My Grandfather(French) fought in the British army in WWW1 and in the RAF in WWW2 with my father,also French. Multiple cultures were included during this period.
The more years go on the more multicultural most countries will become because we are now universal with travel. There is no going back. Education is the key.
userViolet1956
Posted: 18 June 2020 10:24 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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This is a really good discussion. Thank you Stuart for starting it. I can’t pretend to have any answer to the current disadvantages faced by members of the BAME community. Nevertheless, they are real. A Sikh friend of mine put it down to class distinctions. Would that we in the UK became blind to race and focussed on those.
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Posted: 18 June 2020 10:51 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???


I think you can say that most countries have made worthwhile progress is adapting to multiculturalism, although of course there is still some way to go. The USA for example is much better than it was at the end of WW2. Singapore is the obvious example of a country in which all races seem to have a share in the success, although not of course an equally divided share because personal success depends upon achievement and some achieve more than others.

There is no avoiding multiculturalism in this modern world and those isolated places where monculturalism still prevails will not stay that way long, the global village will ensure that. There is certainly no civilised way of winding the clock back by two or three generations in UK by sending all the non-whites "back home" if that's what you are yearning for. Nor do I believe there is any practical uncivilised way of getting rid of multiculturalism so you can forget that one too. We are multicultural and we will remain multicultural in one form or another indefinitely, so we should waste no time thinking otherwise. We may well need to manage immigation in order to prevent aggravating the unmanaged multicultural mess we're currently facing the need to sort out but it remains to be seen what the immigration policies need to be once we achieve control and stability of our democracy.

If there is genuine equal opportunity in our society (which we are still a long way from achieving and we've taken some imortant backward steps) I think we can hope for a stable and comfortable multicultural democracy in the long term - but there are certainly going to be some bumps in the road. Ethnic groups will still group togather for cultural and other reasons but if they all see that they all have genuine equal oppotunity to be educated and/or trained, there will be no reason for the cross-racial envy and resentment we are seeing today. Religious tolerance in a secular society is another key requirement for mutual tolerance and respect. No group may set itself to dominate others. No group may isolate itself by seeking to establish it's own set of laws or taxes.

Wasn't it Tony Blair who said the priority is Education, Education, Education and I think that's right. So we ensure our school are up to scratch and we level upwards to help kids in deprived areas. But we scrap the idea that all kids can gain from going to university, which was Tony Blair's silliest idea. Likewise the encouracement of lots of kids to do a mickey mouse degree at a not-really university and end up with a big debt and nothing that will help them get a a better job. I had a free education all the way up from school at age three to graduation at 23, including maintenance grants. I then had about ten years worth of post-grad specialist training at public expense too. And I worked in the public sector for qite a while and paid taxes for over 40 years to pay it back. Educating and training children and young people to allow them to achieve their personal potential free of charge should be the aim and we should not pretend that this can be done without testing them for aptitude for different sorts of tertiary education or training.

But even with universally good schools and extra support for kids from a deprived background there will still be a need for comprehensive social and personal support in order to achieve universal equality of opportunity. Kids can't choose their parents and lots of today's parents are a complete disaster; they live chaotic lives dependent on drugs and they don't even get out of bed in the morning to get their kids to school - and the kids turn up sometimes, sometimes not, sometimes dressed in school uniform but never in clean clothes and many of them don't stand a cat in hell's chance of achieving their genuine potential because they start life with this millstone around their neck. The ones I came across were white kids by the way, not black. So we need to find a better solution than pretending these kids, of any colour or grouping, are better left with their families when we know the families are beyond hope and perhaps even beyond help, even if that help was available which it bloody well isn't. We need a system of care and education which is safe and reliable and which indentifies them promptly enough to prevent irrecoverable harm - and we need to pay for all that to happen. And there will be much more to do - but at least that's a start.

So stop making self-righteous judgements about whether other people's attitudes or opinions are racist or racially prejudices, as if that really matters because we are all faling to get all of it right. And stop looking at the past, especially resentfully, whatever colour or other grouping you belong to - and start thinking and acting constructively.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2020 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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StuartO - 2020-06-17 9:47 PM
Brian Kirby - 2020-06-17 3:11 PM
Stuart, I'm sorry, but although I accept that it is well intended, I think your post partially illustrates the problem. I'm sure you won't agree, but it comes across to me, in a number of areas, as racially prejudiced. It is those "unconscious" racial prejudices that underlie much of the unrest we presently see among our "non-white" communities.

Brian, it takes a small mind to bring such narrow focus on these big issues.

There you go again, Stuart. Do you want an intelligent discussion of your views, unquestioning approval of them, or an excuse to throw insults? What on earth is your point? That I had the temerity to gently, and politely, point out to you that parts of what you wrote show elements of racism? Do you really want me to bore everyone else with clausal analysis of the whole of your piece to demonstrate my point, item by item, or just to cite a few random examples?
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Posted: 18 June 2020 11:10 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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Violet1956 - 2020-06-18 10:24 AM

This is a really good discussion. Thank you Stuart for starting it. I can’t pretend to have any answer to the current disadvantages faced by members of the BAME community. Nevertheless, they are real. A Sikh friend of mine put it down to class distinctions. Would that we in the UK became blind to race and focussed on those.


Thank you and I agree, it is partly a problem related to social class, eg we see poor white trash facing off against poor black or brown trash on racial ground because of their own failings in life while the middle classes spectate and say tut tut. But isn't that just another way of grouping and labelling people who are low achievers - and isn't that the fundamental problem?

We have much better social mobility these days than a hundred years ago and we were doing better and better with that before Tony Blair messed up the education system by wanting to send all children to university when far more than half were never going to benefit. Both my grandfathers were tram drivers and it took me a long time to caste aside my resentful sense of social inferiority but that was my own fault really and my public education was unquestionably superb and helpful. When I grew up some working class parents were still actively against their children doing anything which would "raise their station" and my parents were exceptional in making sacrifices to pay the consequences (like buying school uniforms, not necessary in secondary moderns) of me passing the Eleven Plus. Hence my hypothesis that education is the key to progress, even if we do also need to rescue some kids from their bad parents.
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Posted: 18 June 2020 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 10:52 AM

StuartO - 2020-06-17 9:47 PM
Brian Kirby - 2020-06-17 3:11 PM
Stuart, I'm sorry, but although I accept that it is well intended, I think your post partially illustrates the problem. I'm sure you won't agree, but it comes across to me, in a number of areas, as racially prejudiced. It is those "unconscious" racial prejudices that underlie much of the unrest we presently see among our "non-white" communities.

Brian, it takes a small mind to bring such narrow focus on these big issues.

There you go again, Stuart. Do you want an intelligent discussion of your views, unquestioning approval of them, or an excuse to throw insults? What on earth is your point? That I had the temerity to gently, and politely, point out to you that parts of what you wrote show elements of racism? Do you really want me to bore everyone else with clausal analysis of the whole of your piece to demonstrate my point, item by item, or just to cite a few random examples?


My point was that you are barking up the wrong tree. This discussion isn't about giving you or anyone else an opportunity to express self-righteous racially-oriented judgements about this or that expression of mine in my original post. Of course it could be better or more sensitively written if I tried again and tried even harder to be politically correct but it wasn't that bad. You deserved that cutting repost. Stop thinking, even for a moment, that I am interested in your observations of that sort.. Nor can I imagine that anyone else is either. Look at the big picture and think constructively. Stop nit picking and start to contribute properly or stay out of it.

Edited by StuartO 2020-06-18 11:21 AM
userjumpstart
Posted: 18 June 2020 11:32 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 
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Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.
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Posted: 18 June 2020 11:48 AM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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jumpstart - 2020-06-18 11:32 AM

Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.


Indeed yes, but I just get fed up with Brian’s nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil and highlight the grammatical errors. I imagine Brian as someone who is at least five feet tall but I do hope that isn’t too close to the truth; I am merely imagining.
userViolet1956
Posted: 18 June 2020 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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StuartO - 2020-06-18 11:48 AM

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 11:32 AM

Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.


Indeed yes, but I just get fed up with Brian’s nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil and highlight the grammatical errors. I imagine Brian as someone who is at least five feet tall but I do hope that isn’t too close to the truth; I am merely imagining.

Oh I think you have let yourself down Stuart sadly. There is room for those inclined to forensic examination on here. It may not be what we are all inclined to do, least of all myself. Brian thinks very carefully about what he posts and is to be lauded for that.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2020 12:23 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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jumpstart - 2020-06-18 7:27 AM...………………...To be honest Brian you are doing what you complain of. “ how we are going to get them to behave more like us”. That surely is dangerously close to a racist remark.

Fair comment. I was rushed at the end, and it was a poor choice of words. Mea culpa.

But the point I was trying (albeit badly) to make is that what we have done is make immigrants, but more especially non-white immigrants, feel unwelcome and rejected. Their natural reaction to this has been to coalesce into groups that we sometimes unwisely call ghettos. There is nothing new in this, it is human nature on both sides, and has happened with every large scale migration throughout history.

It even happened between neighbouring villages before the days of the motor car, when "them over there" were a bit odd! "All the world is queer, save thee and me, and even thou art a little queer.”

Over time the barriers broke down and the immigrants largely assimilated into the rest of society to become just a part of "us" (that "us" I was referring to above). Our social norms, sometimes our diet, gradually absorbed the ripples of difference that occurred as they were absorbed.

We know this because none of us can trace our ancestors very far back into history before we find evidence of immigrant forbears. But that process had, until, say, the post WW2 period, been predominantly of northern European origin, and so relatively unnoticeable.

But after WW2 the large scale immigration was coming predominantly from much further afield, from Asia, the Caribbean, and parts of Africa, and the migrants were immediately identifiable by their different skin colour and non-European culture. The combination of immediately identifiable skin colours, and more widely divergent cultures, made these immigrants stand out from the background. So the process of integration was more difficult.

Good "Wiki" here: https://tinyurl.com/yb6zcr9d

These episodes of overt hostility have left their mark, as have the petty every-day racism they continue to encounter. They are a minority who, because of their looks, cannot fade into the background, and who can never be certain how the next white face they encounter will respond to them. It is that lingering unease that we have to dispel, and that requires social change to make the prejudice that causes it unacceptable, and that in turn will only be brought about by peer pressure. Education, persuasion, and psychology, not legislation or penalties, are the tools we must use, first on ourselves.

Then, over time, just as with other migrant groups, as the sense of being unwelcome outsiders subsides, their confidence will grow, they will drop their defensiveness, and they will begin to blend in socially. Then they will truly become, and will feel, part of that "us" I was trying to capture above. But, IMO, that will never happen until we recognise that we are their problem, and not vice versa.
userBirdbrain
Posted: 18 June 2020 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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jumpstart - 2020-06-18 10:07 AM

Birdbrain.
Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???


The answer to your question is us...the UK. My famiily are immigrants. This country has benefitted from it.
My Grandfather(French) fought in the British army in WWW1 and in the RAF in WWW2 with my father,also French. Multiple cultures were included during this period.
The more years go on the more multicultural most countries will become because we are now universal with travel. There is no going back. Education is the key.


I presume your family integrated as most from European backgrounds do ... Your father and grandfather and others from different countries fought to rid the world of Hitler , Mussolini and The Japanese , they did not fight for multiculturalism , I salute your family for their bravery by the way ... Unfortunately you are wrong with your things will get better through education line ... When you have communities who do not want to integrate , who not want to become British , who will not accept their failings in life are down to them and not any slave ancestry they may have then you can try education till you are blue in the face , it wont work
userBirdbrain
Posted: 18 June 2020 12:35 PM
Subject: RE: We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour
 


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Violet1956 - 2020-06-18 12:22 PM

StuartO - 2020-06-18 11:48 AM

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 11:32 AM

Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.


Indeed yes, but I just get fed up with Brian’s nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil and highlight the grammatical errors. I imagine Brian as someone who is at least five feet tall but I do hope that isn’t too close to the truth; I am merely imagining.

Oh I think you have let yourself down Stuart sadly. There is room for those inclined to forensic examination on here. It may not be what we are all inclined to do, least of all myself. Brian thinks very carefully about what he posts and is to be lauded for that.


Maybe you owe Stuart an apology Veronica ... Brian obviously at times doesnt "think very carefully" about what he posts as he accepts in his last post ... Stuart hasn't let himself down and hes not posted anything remotely racist IMO ... If we are to discuss this subject it might be nice to discuss it without any fear of being labelled anything ... Not having a go at you personally by the way
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