donna miller Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I read this article on ITN web page earlier, and for the life of me I cannot understand the thinking behind some people. OK, they were animal lovers, but to abandon their baby on the riverbank is beyond belief, they obviously thought more of their 3 dogs than they did of their child. When is stupidity like this going to end, last year 2 men were drowned trying to save a dog from a frozen lake, the dog dragged itself out of the water and ran off. Article as copied............... Couple die trying to save pet dogs © ITN 2009 A couple died after abandoning their baby daughter on a riverbank to jump into the water and save their dogs. Laura Frey and her partner Darren Greenan were walking along the bank of the River Garnock in Ayrshire. When their dogs got into difficulty in the water they jumped into the river, which had been swollen by recent heavy rains, to try and rescue them. They left their daughter in her pram on the riverbank. Ms Frey, 30, was pulled out of the river shortly after the incident on Sunday and later died in hospital. Mr Greenan's body was recovered this morning following a major search by coastguards. Two of their three dogs were also found dead in the water. A police statement said: "At around 10.15am the body of a male, thought to be 33-year-old Darren Greenan, was recovered from the River Garnock near to the site of the initial incident." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Thats a poor bit of writing, ASIUT, the man entered water (jumped or just overreached, not known) to attempt to rescue dogs when he got in trouble his partner attempted to rescue him and also got into trouble. With 20/20 hindsight it was a foolhardy thing to do, but when things start to go wrong panick sets in, then it becomes a tragidy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I agree Donna, very sad and very stupid, but people still continue to do it although I'm darned sure that I wouldn't go into any dangerous waters to rescue Rosie much as we love her. More to the point I wouldn't let the dog go into a rough sea, swollen river, iced over lake, waterfall, steep or slippery sided river where she could not get out - or anywhere else where I thought that she might get into difficulties. At least the baby will hopefully have a chance of a decent life to come as hopefully it is too young to know what happened unlike young children to whom this happens who must be dreadfully traumatised by watching their parent(s) drown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randonneur Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 This mightn not have happened if the dogs had been on leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 My dog is never on a lead but she is trained to be reasonably well behaved and not go where I tell her not to go, so either they let, or encouraged the dogs to go in, or they did not have them trained enough not to disobey. Judging by most of the dogs and owners that we encounter,locally at least, it does seem to be that younger people seem less inclined to train their dogs and considerably more arrogant when said untrained mutt makes itself a nuisance, whereas we rarely if ever get any problems with older dog owners and their dogs who are generally keen to avoid any aggro. It may be a bit unfair to generalise and categorise people in that way but nevertheless it does seem like it most of the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 The news here stated that the young man had swum in that particular river on a regular basis since his youth so he probably felt quite confident with that stretch of water. The woman was afraid but tried to save him, when he got into difficulties. You are all correct in saying it was stupid, but in all honesty I couldn't swear that I wouldn't jump in to try and save my dog if she fell in or a stranger. I don't think we tend to think for too long when faced with these situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Imagine you are the relations of the couple concerned ... how would you feel reading such an article as this which tries to 'criticise' them by blatantly changing the facts to make it look like they were extremely stupid in their actions and implying they were unfit parents! I haven't heard about this other than what I have read on here in your postings but based on these, the writer and editor should be ashamed of themselves ... this poor couple have died and all the article does is try to inflame what is already an extremely tragic event. I have intervened in situations where in hindsight it may not have been the 'safest' course of action (splitting up lads' fights etc) and I would probably do it again, that's my nature. I also know that if one of my dogs was in trouble, regardless of the circumstances as to why, I'd more than likely do whatever was necessary to help them - whether I'd have the time to stop and think of the consequences I don't know ... until you are faced with such a situation you can't possibly know. If the outcome had been different and the dogs had been rescued the headline would have been heaping praise on them for being caring owners. Lets not criticize them - we were not there and they cannot defend themselves - just hope that you are never in a situation which requires you to do such as this. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Agree Mel. I have had two instances where I still feel sick when I think of what I did without thinking. I chased, barefoot, three youths who stole money out of the till and ran off .... into an entry!!!! Where they were waiting for me..... long story but I was lucky. All because I was incensed they thought they could do that. Another time in early hours of morning I stopped the car and stood between a man who had been chasing a woman with a knife and I tried to get her into my car at the same time as trying to get the knife off him. I was stupid and it wasn't brave, I just didn't think, just did what came natural to me at the time. As Mel says none of us really know what we would do when faced with certain situations including protecting our animals. I just feel so much sadness for the families left with bringing up the children and dealing with their grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopesy Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 It's not just the baby left behind i believe there are older children too. what a tradegy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I think that the saying (you have to walk a mile in someone elses shoes before you can judge) applies here! Who knows what you would do untill you are faced with the same situation, I dont think for one moment that that couple were bad parents :-S and I dont think either of them stopped to think they acted on impulse! I know if my little dog fell in the water I probably would do the same thing! if I had a child with me who knows I hope I wouldnt leave it but I couldnt swear that I wouldnt!! I know about 21 years ago at Filey I and my family sat on the beach watching the waves, a couple of young girls were playing on a inner tube the wind was off the land and I had remarked to my dayghter and her husband I hope she doesnt get in difficulties because i I go in for her Ill get cramp, YES she did my Sone in law was going in after her but I ran past him and told him to look after the baby my grandson and I went in! I had to swim a way out and pull her back it was hard going and she had slumped in exaustion but I shouted at her to swim we managed to get back and people through a rope for us! my daughter in the meantime had called the coast guard and a helicopter came and the hoisted one of the men down to talk to us and ask if we were alright Yes just very wet (fully clothed ME ) but I had already said I wouldnt go in!!! but I did when I saw her frightened face and my S.I.L. that was in danger of leaving his little boy to go in I went instead!! The moral of this story is YOU JUST DONT KNOW SO DONT JUDGE!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 maggyd - 2009-05-13 4:49 PM I think that the saying (you have to walk a mile in someone elses shoes before you can judge) applies here! Who knows what you would do untill you are faced with the same situation, I dont think for one moment that that couple were bad parents :-S and I dont think either of them stopped to think they acted on impulse! I know if my little dog fell in the water I probably would do the same thing! if I had a child with me who knows I hope I wouldnt leave it but I couldnt swear that I wouldnt!! I know about 21 years ago at Filey I and my family sat on the beach watching the waves, a couple of young girls were playing on a inner tube the wind was off the land and I had remarked to my dayghter and her husband I hope she doesnt get in difficulties because i I go in for her Ill get cramp, YES she did my Sone in law was going in after her but I ran past him and told him to look after the baby my grandson and I went in! I had to swim a way out and pull her back it was hard going and she had slumped in exaustion but I shouted at her to swim we managed to get back and people through a rope for us! my daughter in the meantime had called the coast guard and a helicopter came and the hoisted one of the men down to talk to us and ask if we were alright Yes just very wet (fully clothed ME ) but I had already said I wouldnt go in!!! but I did when I saw her frightened face and my S.I.L. that was in danger of leaving his little boy to go in I went instead!! The moral of this story is YOU JUST DONT KNOW SO DONT JUDGE!! Maggyd, No one anywhere has suggested they were bad parents, and you, along with several others have given examples of how you have acted without thinking when other PEOPLE were in danger. My posting was about how people foolishly put their lives at risk for an animal, and in this tragic case 2 young lives were lost, and for what ? the dogs still drowned and their children now have to face growing up without their mummy and daddy. There is a huge difference between saving a fellow human from drowning, and dying whilst trying to save a drowning dog. And in reality, the two should not even be compared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Donna, in your first posting you said: ... they obviously thought more of their 3 dogs than they did of their child. When is stupidity like this going to end You may not have said 'bad' parents but the implication was clearly there for us all to read. You are entitled to your opinion of course but as I said earlier, until you are in that situation you cannot possibly know how you will react. You may be able to resist doing what you consider to be 'stupid', however, others have a different view. The couple could not have know what would happen, they were not psychic; had their efforts not been in vain they would then be hailed as 'heros'. It is very easy to be critical in hindsight and they cannot defend their actions. They did what they did and have paid the ultimate price, I just hope you never ever have to test your 'resolve' in such a situation. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Well as Mel has so elequantly put it I need'nt duplicate it :-S you did insinuate it even if you didnt come right out with it Donna and it is a tragedy that shouldnt have happened but it did! and there but for the grace of God Go I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 Mel B - 2009-05-13 9:09 PM Donna, in your first posting you said: ... they obviously thought more of their 3 dogs than they did of their child. When is stupidity like this going to end You may not have said 'bad' parents but the implication was clearly there for us all to read. You are entitled to your opinion of course but as I said earlier, until you are in that situation you cannot possibly know how you will react. You may be able to resist doing what you consider to be 'stupid', however, others have a different view. The couple could not have know what would happen, they were not psychic; had their efforts not been in vain they would then be hailed as 'heros'. It is very easy to be critical in hindsight and they cannot defend their actions. They did what they did and have paid the ultimate price, I just hope you never ever have to test your 'resolve' in such a situation. :-| You know what, I'm finally starting to see people on this forum for what they really are, a bunch of self rightous, holier than thou bunch of hypocrites. believe me Mel, if I wanted to say somebody was a bad parent, I would come out with it, I don't need to imply anything and I certainly do not need people to suggest otherwise. I pasted a news item and gave my opinion, am I wrong because my opinion differs from yours, you obviously believe that as a dog lover, you have the right to slate somebody who thinks 2 adults who risked (and ultimately lost) their lives to try in vain to save 3 dogs from a river that they should not have been in in the first place, were foolish and wrong. What gives you the right to tell me " Until you are in that situation yourself, you would not know how you would react". Do you know me, do you know wat situations I have found myself in ? Let me assure you right now, my priority would be with my child, it would be "bye bye doggie". However, I would have no hesitation in laying down my life if it meant saving the life of a fellow human. But there again, as a qualified first responder, first aider, The golden rule is never to put yourself in danger to help others. A dead hero is no good to anyone, so yes, I know how I would react in a situation because I have been there. Now as you obviously believe that because my opinion differs from yours on this matter, I am in the wrong, I will leave you to your sad belief that dog life is more important than human life,however, I really do not believe that you have your priorities in order. As for saying " the couple could not have known what would happen", I'm sorry but my 10 year old retarded niece knows not to jump into a river, so please don't give me that B/S. If they did nor realise the dangers of jumping into a swollen river, then they should not have been out without supervision. But not to worry, you keep your dogs and put their values higher than that of human life, and I'll do the exact opposite. I stand by my original statement that the couple concerned were foolish and irresponsible, they receive no sympathy from me, my only sympathies go out to the poor children left parentless because of this stupid series of events. And Maggyd, read your previous post " if i had a child with me, I hope I wouldn't leave it, but I couldn't swear that I would". God forbid anyone ever left their child with you then. How dare you criticise me, when you have made a statement like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I think that both Donna and Mel are lovely natured, good, honest, decent and caring people and I suspect that in the real world - as opposed to this faceless cyber world - their values and integrity are not so far apart? So how about it girls - a big hug and let's all remain friends? There you are then - another gem from the diplomat of the year - me of course - well who else would you vote for - and at least I don't claim any expenses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howie Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 All depends on the circumstances of course, but I simply cannot see a situation where I would stand by and watch our dog drown without lifting a finger to help. Sorry, but its something I could never live with. As for leaving a child alone on the the river bank, well again thats down to circumstances, but unless this would leave them in obvious danger then the first thing would be to save the dog. What would happen if one of your children fell in the river and you were faced with leaving another one or two alone on the bank. Only one thing you can do, and that's to follow your gut instinct and do what you feel is the right thing, and in this case it would be to save the child who's life was in peril. Stupid/brave, who knows, but to simply stand by and not do a thing is totally out of the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Well ... what can I say Donna ... from your reaction and comments I sincerely hope that I never actually need your help as a first aider, especially if it was due to some act on my part that 'may have been avoidable' if I had psychic powers and could see into the future first, as I would hate to think of the ticking off I would get in the process. You obviously have a different view of how people should act to me and by the looks of it some others, but that doesn't mean it is right or wrong, it is just your view, as I have mine. I wasn't talking BS thank you, and I'm not self-righteous or holier than though either - no-one is better than anyone else. I don't know why you said these hurtful things, the were uncalled for. I don't have any children, just my dogs (and husband of course), so my dogs mean an awful lot to me as they ARE my family, if I had children maybe it would be different, I don't know, I haven't been fortunate enough to find out. If you want an excuse to have a 'row', feel free to PM me, where I can give as good, or better, than I get believe me, without having to resort to personal insults. However, I'd rather not and would prefer to remain friends on the forum if that's okay with you? My last comments though are: this isn't about you or me, though, it is about the loss of this couple, whatever the rights or wrongs of how it came about, you cannot escape the sheer tragedy of these awful events. I hope I NEVER find myself having to make this sort of decision ever. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 donna miller - 2009-05-12 3:16 PM I read this article on ITN web page earlier, and for the life of me I cannot understand the thinking behind some people. OK, they were animal lovers, but to abandon their baby on the riverbank is beyond belief, they obviously thought more of their 3 dogs than they did of their child. When is stupidity like this going to end, last year 2 men were drowned trying to save a dog from a frozen lake, the dog dragged itself out of the water and ran off. Mel, Have you really no idea why I am starting to get riled with peoples attitude to me, read my original comments on this matter and then explain where you found your motivation to accuse me of impliying they were bad parents, and no sooner had you finished writing that, then maggyd dived in with her own addition to your accusation.My other comment on the matter was to suggest that people did not compare trying to save a human life with that of trying to save an animal. Everybody else, you included have turned this thread into what you would do in this type of situation, you have no interest in anyone, like myself who has stated that they would act differently, anyone whos priority would not be to leap headlong into danger, gets ridiculed with statements like "how would you know how you would react" etc etc. Well I told you how I would react and you didn't like it. Please re-read the opening paragraph of your last post, regarding not wanting me to be the first on the scene if you were injured, I really cannot believe you would stoop to such childish insults, let me assure you, you would much rather have someonelike me, who was level headed and took a moment to think about their actions, than someone who rushed into the situation without a moments forethought. The first thing a qualified aider should do is asess what is happening. Maybe you should ask another unbiased first aider if my reasoning is right or wrong. So I stand by my opinion that the couple concerned acted irresponsibly, you can have your own opinion, that is fine, just allow me the same privilige you obviously feel you are entitled to. You say you would do the same as they did in that situation, I know I wouldn't, so please do not slate me because my priorities are different to yours. And your bit in the last post about not deserving the insults you think I gave out, well other people get offended as well, and yes I do mean me. Why would I not take offence at the things you and your mate said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Donna ... re-read YOUR posts please - pretend someone else wrote them rather than you, and you may see where I, and others, are coming from. No matter what I, or everyone else apparently, says, you can only see your side - it is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, I just do not hold the same opinion as you, that doesn't mean I am ridiculing you, if you can't allow others to have a different view then that is not my fault. My differing opinion doesn't make me full of BS, neither does your view make you full of it either. 8-) As for my first paragraph, it was actually meant to be light-hearted, you obviously didn't take it that way which is a shame. Childish? If you want to think so ... :-S Insulting ... certainly not. :-| I just can't understand why you put on a posting about something so tragic that has happened, then you use it to air your own view of how 'stupid' they were. I really can't see what earthly good this has done at all. Saying such things as "... they obviously thought more of their 3 dogs than they did of their child" to me isn't something that can be construed as anything but criticism of them. Isn't it enough that they have died? Do they really have to be discussed in this way too??? :-( Oh, and yes, Maggyd is 'my mate', as are lots of others on the forum I'm pleased to say. By being 'my mates' they respect me as I respect them. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Donna I didnt insult you at all, all I said was untill you are in a situation you dont know how you would react. I had no idea say 20 years ago before I had a dog I would probably have said much the same thing as you, but now I know better! I have had four children and have 10 grandchildren I never had any idea how much you could love a dog! and when I say that when my last dog died it was like loosing a child! now you probably think that is a terrible thing to say! but I have no guilt about admiting that that is how attached you get to your dog. All I can say is that young couple that tried to rescue there dog ! did so not stopping to think that they wouldnt ever get out of that water and my heart goes out to them and their family. I am neither self rightious or pompous I just tell it as I see it, and you have every right to your opinion I am just telling you my opinion and when I heard this on the news I said "oh God that dog would have probably got out itself" but I know I couldnt have waited to see I would have been in there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Mel B - 2009-05-14 9:26 PM As for my first paragraph, it was actually meant to be light-hearted, you obviously didn't take it that way which is a shame. Childish? If you want to think so ... :-S Insulting ... certainly not. :-| I just can't understand why you put on a posting about something so tragic that has happened, then you use it to air your own view of how 'stupid' they were. I really can't see what earthly good this has done at all. Saying such things as "... they obviously thought more of their 3 dogs than they did of their child" to me isn't something that can be construed as anything but criticism of them. Isn't it enough that they have died? Do they really have to be discussed in this way too??? :-( 2 or 3 points, then i'm out of here for good. You can keep your forum and you can keep your (oh so worn out) statement of , " No matter what I, or everyone else apparently, says, you can only see your side" That is all I ever hear from people on here. I apparently have no respect for anyones views other than my own, but you all have soooooo much respect for mine when they differ, dont you. Anyway, ref your above quoted post, 1........ If the person your comment was made to, found it insulting, then it was an insult, intended or not. 2......... My original posting said "when is this stupidity going to end" I then went on to highlight another example. I never stated the couple in question were stupid, YOU have made it appear that way. Do I not have the right to criticise irresponsible actions made by others ? Judging by your comments, I do not. Yes, I may have made the original posting, however, it was not I who turned it into a discussion. You would do well to notice that. You may also like to notice that I mentioned how tragic the loss was of those 2 young lives and how their children would have to grow up without a mummy or daddy , but then again, who takes any notice of what I say when I'm not being "difficult or argumentative" eh !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Perhaps I need a new career as I am obviously not cut out for diplomacy! It would be a real shame if either Mel or Donna left us because of this tiff as they are both intelligent and respected people whose input on this forum would be sadly missed by the rest of us. Come on girls - why not just agree to differ and let it go please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Don't worry Rich - you'll not get rid of me that easily! :D To be honest, I can't be bothered to keep debating this any more, Donna has her opinion and she is very much entitled to it just as everyone else is entitled to theirs, and me to mine. If anyone has been offended by the way this thread has gone then I am very sorry about that - those that know me know that is never my intention to cause upset. :-| Sooooo ... I'm off to have a wander round the other posts and have a bit of fun instead now. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Oh bu**er it Mel - so you're still wiv us then - in body if not in mind? Why should anyone be offended Mel? Freedom of speech is a basic fundamental of this country and to read conflicting views of the same story is quite - well almost - interesting - and long may it continue without poor old teddy being bunged out of the pram again and again! Carry on girls - and boys - please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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