nightrider Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 The Compass Calypso that I took delivery of on monday is a two berth, the rear side facing sets do not have seat belts, what is the legal position in the event of carrying a couple of adult passengers?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Hi Malcolm - You don't mention why you are only asking this question now, after taking delivery. (Is the MH new, and it's layout as delivered is different to that which you ordered in some way?) My own limited web research (others far more knowledgable will be along shortly) of the UK seat belt law is: "For vehicles built up to Oxtober 2007 there was no legal requirement to have seat belts fitted to side-facing seats or seats that make up the accommodation area in motor caravans. Regulation 46 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, as amended, states motor caravans first used on or after 1st April 1982 but before 1 October 1988 shall be equipped with anchorage points for the driver's seat and specified passenger seat (if any); and for motor caravans first used on or after 1st October 1988 shall be equipped with anchorage points for the driver's seat and any forward-facing front seat. You can download a copy of the SI at http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2001/20011043.htm. However, this did not preclude manufacturers fitting seat belts to forward facing or rearward facing seats within the accommodation area if they wished to do so. Where seat belts are fitted they must be worn. Seats in the rear of a campervan/motorhome did not, prior to October 2007, require seatbelts (whether forward, rearward or sideways facing) and it is not illegal to carry unrestrained passengers in them while travelling, providing the vehicle is not overloaded. Although current seat belt wearing regulations do not currently prohibit carrying more passengers in vehicles than there are seat belts available, the police may prosecute drivers for carrying passengers in a manner that may injure someone. We would advise that no-one should be carried in any unbelted seat in the rear of a motorhome. An EU Directive (2005/40/EC) on the installation of seat belts required that from 20 October 2007 new vehicles have to have seat belts fitted on all seats except those seats intended solely for use when the vehicle is stationary. Where seat belts are fitted, from May 2009, the seat belt wearing Directive will prevent more passengers being carried than there are seat belts in the rear of vehicles. This will mean that from May 2009, in any vehicle of whatever age, where seat belts are fitted in the rear, more passengers may not be carried in the rear than there are seat belts available. The critical point for owners of older motorhomes is that it will not become illegal to carry passengers in the rear, provided that no seatbelts are fitted to any seats behind the driver and front passenger seats. Owners of any motorhome that has belts fitted to any seat in the rear will need to be aware that, from May 2009, it will be illegal to carry passengers in any unbelted seats." Whilst this is the strict criminal law position, I guess the other aspect you need to consider is the Civil Law; particularly the effect on any insurance claim in the event of you having an accident and someone in the rear of your vehicle getting injured and then suing you for a breach of your common law duty to take all reasonable care to protect them. Muddy waters I guess; I don't know if your failure to fit (or retrofit) rear seatbelts before allowing such passengers could leave you open to a personal injury claim against you, if the Insurers felt it was a way for them to reduce their compensation payout due to your negligence as the driver. Try googling "UK motorhome seat belt law"...I'm sure there'll be a lot of more detailed web information that may help. Did the Dealer/brochure say different when you ordered your MH to what they've now supplied to you? If the MH is not brand new, did you give it a thorough checkover and check how many belts were fitted before signing up to committing to buy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 If you haven't yet seen it, also discused here http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=13971&posts=7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 There's also a similar thread now running over in "Motorhome Matters" which may give more information..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 I didnt buy this particular motorhome with the intention of carrying passengers and was well aware that it did not have rear seat belts, it was only when the wife mentioned the fact that I posed the question. The van is not brand new but is in pristine order and has only done 12000 miles and I am really pleased with it, plenty of cabin and storage space, the luxury of having a walk-in toilet, h/c water and a really good heating system, having spent today setting it up and re-jigging things, TV radio etc it makes me wonder how we put up with the limited facilities of our other van, one thing that I will not miss is that draught of cold air that used to blow in from the back tail gate of the VW type 4 that we had. I cannot fault the professionalism that Todds of Preston gave us, this is the 3rd camper that we have bought from them, seeing as this van has got all what we require I very much doubt we will be buying another in the future, over the Christmas period the wife and I will be working out this years travels, really looking forward to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howie Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Obviously bought the van for just the two of you Malcolm. Most two berths are the same and would,nt worry over the lack of rear seat belts. Yet to own a van that did'nt have a good heating system but really getting the benifits of the diesel heater fitted to the one we now own, especially with this cold weather. Shopping this morning, and put the heating on for 15 minutes before leaving to be greeted with the van de-frosted and warm has toast. Never had this form of heating before but have it down has a 'must have' for any future vans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 Howie, Round where I live, about half a mile from J17 of the M62, the roads are shut down due to snow, and once again the local councils are saying that "they were caught out" or it was the "wrong kind of snow" road gritters. what are they. I have even had to postpone a hospital appointment for tomorrow up at Oldham General, no chance of getting there. Today has been bitterly cold, ideal for testing out my vans heating, I put a thermometer inside the van and one outside, on checking it out 5 minutes ago the temperature outside is down to 20F and in the van it is 70F, of course were I to be away in the van I would lower the temp, 70F would be a little on the high side. Ps tried 3 places today to try and buy some rock salt to spread about the paths and drive of our house, none to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainbow-Chasers Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Front facing seats have to have belts. Rearwards facing have none (you have your back to the direction of travel) Side facing have none due to the injuries that can be caused by the body flying sideways when belts are built to stop you going forward. Lap belts have been known to dislocate pelvis and cause major spinal injuries as the body twists. It is safer without. Legally one person may travel on a side facing seat, behind the passenger seat. In the event of an accident the passenger seat would restrain flight. No others are allowed to travel sideward facing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 Thanks to all who replied, I now have a clearer picture regarding seat belts in this particular van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Rainbow-Chasers' - 2008-12-03 11:03 PM Front facing seats have to have belts. Rearwards facing have none (you have your back to the direction of travel) Side facing have none due to the injuries that can be caused by the body flying sideways when belts are built to stop you going forward. Lap belts have been known to dislocate pelvis and cause major spinal injuries as the body twists. It is safer without. Legally one person may travel on a side facing seat, behind the passenger seat. In the event of an accident the passenger seat would restrain flight. No others are allowed to travel sideward facing. I think we need to be a bit careful here; this is not my understanding of actually what UK law, or the more recent EU Directive says. (I quoted excerpts from both in an earlier post in this thread). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howie Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 BGD - 2008-12-02 8:44 PM Although current seat belt wearing regulations do not currently prohibit carrying more passengers in vehicles than there are seat belts available, the police may prosecute drivers for carrying passengers in a manner that may injure someone. We would advise that no-one should be carried in any unbelted seat in the rear of a motorhome. Whilst this is the strict criminal law position, I guess the other aspect you need to consider is the Civil Law; particularly the effect on any insurance claim in the event of you having an accident and someone in the rear of your vehicle getting injured and then suing you for a breach of your common law duty to take all reasonable care to protect them. Muddy waters I guess; I don't know if your failure to fit (or retrofit) rear seatbelts before allowing such passengers could leave you open to a personal injury claim against you, if the Insurers felt it was a way for them to reduce their compensation payout due to your negligence as the driver. And that just about sums it up. You may not be breaking the law with regards to carrying passengers where no seat belts are fitted, but it is still the drivers responsibility to ensure their safety, and in the event of any accident/personal injury i,m sure legal prosecution would follow. The only conclusion is that you should not carry passengers where no belts are there for them, and if you do plan to carry more than the two designated seats allow then you should buy a van more suited to these requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Without wishing to endlessly labour this point, there is also increased risk to the belted, front seat, travellers. Any unsecured rear passenger is projected violently forward in most accidents, and will either collide with the back of one of the front seats, or the back of a front seat traveller's head. In the first case, the stress is transferred via the seat to the front seat traveller, and thence to the seatbelt. If the belt holds up, the result, almost inevitably is crush injuries to the belted traveller. In the second case, severe neck/head injury to the front seat traveller is likely. All this has been widely publicised, and I think the originator of the string is fully aware of this, and has stated above that they have no intention of carrying unbelted passengers. I therefore hope they won't be offended by this further emphasis of the risks, which is not aimed at them, but at others who may have been unaware of the dangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 Brian, Like you say I have no intention of carrying unbelted passengers in my van, I am also very concious of loose articles in the back of a van, camper or otherwise. About 25 years ago a work mate of mine was killed outright when attending a callout job late at night, he had to brake hard and fast to avoid a drunk driver, his plumbers propane gas bottle which was unsecured in the back of his van shot forward and smashed him in the back of the head, two days later he died from his injuries. Ever since then I have always secured tools and equipment in my van, camper included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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