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When will we see the benefits?
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userspospe
Posted: 4 July 2020 2:25 PM
Subject: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Now that we are properly out of the EU, when will we begin to see the benefits?
usermalc d
Posted: 4 July 2020 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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spospe - 2020-07-04 2:25 PM

Now that we are properly out of the EU, when will we begin to see the benefits?



Not until someone gives us a list of them, so we can tick 'em off.



p.s. Basically - anything good that happens in the future will be due to leaving the EU.

Anything bad that happens in the future will be due to COVID-19



Edited by malc d 2020-07-04 2:40 PM
userBarryd999
Posted: 4 July 2020 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Exactly correct Malc.

Nobody knows what the benefits were supposed to be. I Dont think there are any. You just have to "believe in Britain" and errr, erm, "Back Boris" and errr, "Bendy Bananas". Who won the war anyway?

The point is, we will be FREEE! Well not exactly as we will be answerable to anyone we set up a trade deal with, the WTO and most importantly the big one the Brexiteers were depending upon, Donald Trump.
userjumpstart
Posted: 4 July 2020 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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spospe - 2020-07-04 2:25 PM

Now that we are properly out of the EU, when will we begin to see the benefits?


I’m surprised you haven’t yet. I feel better already.
userBulletguy
Posted: 4 July 2020 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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malc d - 2020-07-04 2:37 PM

spospe - 2020-07-04 2:25 PM

Now that we are properly out of the EU, when will we begin to see the benefits?



Not until someone gives us a list of them, so we can tick 'em off.



p.s. Basically - anything good that happens in the future will be due to leaving the EU.

Anything bad that happens in the future will be due to COVID-19


Plus 'Boris bashers'.....'Lefty Losers'.....'Commies' and 'Marxists' which seems to be Pelmets latest buzz word.....despite being unable to accept they're his Brexit chums.
userNicepix
Posted: 4 July 2020 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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Benefits will include more money to be spent on the UK and not subsidising European industries and infrastructure.

Having the opportunity for small UK businesses to develop products for the British market without having to meet more stringent European standards designed to accommodate much greater diversities in things like temperatures and climate, electricity supplies, protecting other EU industries etc.

An increase in democracy in that things like planning wind turbines cannot be justified by the guidelines imposed by Brussels. Local politicians will be carrying more of the can.

The opportunity for the UK fishing fleet to expand and create more jobs.

The increased choice of products for sale leading to increased competition and lower prices. No longer will the British consumer be paying through the nose to keep Italian, Dutch and German domestic goods manufacturers in work. Add to that the removal of tariffs on non-EU vehicles, food and other essential items.

These things won't happen overnight. But I reckon in three years time nobody will admit to voting to remain.
userBarryd999
Posted: 4 July 2020 10:41 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Nicepix - 2020-07-04 8:44 PM

Benefits will include more money to be spent on the UK and not subsidising European industries and infrastructure.

Having the opportunity for small UK businesses to develop products for the British market without having to meet more stringent European standards designed to accommodate much greater diversities in things like temperatures and climate, electricity supplies, protecting other EU industries etc.

An increase in democracy in that things like planning wind turbines cannot be justified by the guidelines imposed by Brussels. Local politicians will be carrying more of the can.

The opportunity for the UK fishing fleet to expand and create more jobs.

The increased choice of products for sale leading to increased competition and lower prices. No longer will the British consumer be paying through the nose to keep Italian, Dutch and German domestic goods manufacturers in work. Add to that the removal of tariffs on non-EU vehicles, food and other essential items.

These things won't happen overnight. But I reckon in three years time nobody will admit to voting to remain.


Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. It already has. Brexit has cost our economy pretty much the entire amount we paid in since we joined forty odd years ago and we haven't properly left yet.

Fishing? LOL! Tescos employ more people than the entire fishing industry. I think its about 26000 people, its on its arse and will stay that way. Its about 0.01% of our economy.

As for your last comment. I think it will be the opposite.

Edited by Barryd999 2020-07-04 10:41 PM
userJohn52
Posted: 5 July 2020 5:47 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM


Fishing? LOL! Tescos employ more people than the entire fishing industry. I think its about 26000 people, its on its arse and will stay that way. Its about 0.01% of our economy.



True
And even the fishing industry are realising they will be worse off - by losing access to free trade with the EU, and EU grants.
Doesn't seem to have dawned on some people that when all the fish's predators, seals, sea birds eggs etc, became protected species, that fish stocks would fall. So it suited the Brexiteers to blame the EU for that as well.
userStuartO
Posted: 5 July 2020 7:27 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.
userNicepix
Posted: 5 July 2020 8:03 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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StuartO - 2020-07-05 8:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Exactly. And the economists who predicted doom and gloom the moment a Leave vote was announced?

The fishing industry has declined primarily due to increased competition as a result of sharing UK fisheries with competitors. As I have already posted the UK fishermen will still be able to sell fish to Europe because all the refrigerated lorries bringing farm fresh food from the continent need a return load or the French and Spanish farmers and hauliers will be out of business. Fishing will grow as an employment and in these times of computerisation and mechanisation putting people out of work any increase in jobs is a good thing.

So when the Express publish scare stories about French trawlers barricading British ports just remember that they would be preventing French and Spanish perishable cargoes from being landed promptly.
userjumpstart
Posted: 5 July 2020 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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How many of these “spot on” economists predicted the crash of 2007/8 ? Less than 1.
userpelmetman
Posted: 5 July 2020 8:21 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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spospe - 2020-07-04 2:25 PM

Now that we are properly out of the EU, when will we begin to see the benefits?


1 minute past midnight on the 1.1.2021 we will be £350 million pounds a week better of ........

userBarryd999
Posted: 5 July 2020 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.


Edited by Barryd999 2020-07-05 9:04 AM
userStuartO
Posted: 5 July 2020 9:21 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 9:02 AM .... Its well known that ......


There you go again ........

And by the way, I voted to Remain. But we had a vote, so I respect the result. We're coming out so let's make the best of it shall we?

Edited by StuartO 2020-07-05 9:23 AM
userNicepix
Posted: 5 July 2020 12:01 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 10:02 AM

StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.


So you answer a comment about lack of evidence by layering on even more unevidenced statements.

When you say that the UK gets ten pounds for every pound back that they put in, how can you evidence that given the enormous deficit in trade? Where does that, frankly ridiculous statement come from?

As for environmental protections; are you saying that the UK Government is not capable of managing its own environmental protection policies? And why is Freedom of Movement a benefit to the UK?

Come on now. Let us hear how you come about those statements because simply saying that the facts have been posted on here for years every time you are placed on the spot is wearing a bit thin.
userBarryd999
Posted: 5 July 2020 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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StuartO - 2020-07-05 9:21 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 9:02 AM .... Its well known that ......


There you go again ........

And by the way, I voted to Remain. But we had a vote, so I respect the result. We're coming out so let's make the best of it shall we?


I Dont see how we cannot all make the best of it. What are we going to do otherwise. It is what it is or it is what the Brexiteers will now do with it as they are in charge. Nothing I say or do will make any difference. Team Brexit is at the helm. Lets see them make the best of it. Make the best of it sounds like the sort of thing you say when something is fubared to me though.
userBarryd999
Posted: 5 July 2020 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Nicepix - 2020-07-05 12:01 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 10:02 AM

StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.


So you answer a comment about lack of evidence by layering on even more unevidenced statements.

When you say that the UK gets ten pounds for every pound back that they put in, how can you evidence that given the enormous deficit in trade? Where does that, frankly ridiculous statement come from?

As for environmental protections; are you saying that the UK Government is not capable of managing its own environmental protection policies? And why is Freedom of Movement a benefit to the UK?

Come on now. Let us hear how you come about those statements because simply saying that the facts have been posted on here for years every time you are placed on the spot is wearing a bit thin.


The ten pounds for every pound was part of the "Britain Stronger in Europe" campaign and ultimately is a bit of a best guess but a pretty accurate one. A full explanation here. https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-remain-do-we-get-10-for-every-1-we-put-into-the-eu-62085b8d7cb0 There isnt an enormous deficit in trade though. We buy in more than we export but its not an enormous gap. Either way there is little doubt we get back way more than we pay in. At the time when this evidence was produced the stock answer from Brexiteers was "its not all about the money" but they soon forget about that as its clearly a big factor.

So we did we get more back than we put in but the Brexit vote has seen a double Whammy as we are losing more off the economy than we ever put in by a country mile as well as losing all the benefits of membership that led to that claim.

Environmental protections, green issues, workers rights, human rights and animal welfare are all out of the window, of course they are. There is plenty of evidence already. The workers rights issue was one of the main concerns of Labour and the Lib Dems and partly responsible for the huge delay in Brexit getting through. The Brexiteer Tories simply cannot be trusted. Everyone should know that by now.

As for Freedom of movement, its a massive benefit. We know now that EU workers make a huge contribution to both the economy and the country as a whole. More than none EU workers and much more than native Brit workers. We have already seen the damage before we leave with fruit now rotting in the fields and a huge drop in applications (Down 96%) from EU nurses and NHS staff. They would have been useful recently huh? The right to work, live, study and of course travel unrestricted across Europe is fantastic. The only reason Brexiteers see it as a dirty word is some of them just dont like funny foreigners and were convinced by the the likes of Farage, The Daily Mail and The Express over twenty years that EU immigrants were all spongers and a drain on our services when in fact the opposite is true it turns out.

You are not placing me on the spot by the way. This should all be stuff anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for four years should know without having to provide evidence anymore. The time for all that is over anyway. Its up to you and your Brexit government to deliver what you promised.

Edited by Barryd999 2020-07-05 2:44 PM
userNicepix
Posted: 5 July 2020 4:13 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 3:41 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 12:01 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 10:02 AM

StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.


So you answer a comment about lack of evidence by layering on even more unevidenced statements.

When you say that the UK gets ten pounds for every pound back that they put in, how can you evidence that given the enormous deficit in trade? Where does that, frankly ridiculous statement come from?

As for environmental protections; are you saying that the UK Government is not capable of managing its own environmental protection policies? And why is Freedom of Movement a benefit to the UK?

Come on now. Let us hear how you come about those statements because simply saying that the facts have been posted on here for years every time you are placed on the spot is wearing a bit thin.


The ten pounds for every pound was part of the "Britain Stronger in Europe" campaign and ultimately is a bit of a best guess but a pretty accurate one. A full explanation here. https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-remain-do-we-get-10-for-every-1-we-put-into-the-eu-62085b8d7cb0 There isnt an enormous deficit in trade though. We buy in more than we export but its not an enormous gap. Either way there is little doubt we get back way more than we pay in. At the time when this evidence was produced the stock answer from Brexiteers was "its not all about the money" but they soon forget about that as its clearly a big factor.

So we did we get more back than we put in but the Brexit vote has seen a double Whammy as we are losing more off the economy than we ever put in by a country mile as well as losing all the benefits of membership that led to that claim.

Environmental protections, green issues, workers rights, human rights and animal welfare are all out of the window, of course they are. There is plenty of evidence already. The workers rights issue was one of the main concerns of Labour and the Lib Dems and partly responsible for the huge delay in Brexit getting through. The Brexiteer Tories simply cannot be trusted. Everyone should know that by now.

As for Freedom of movement, its a massive benefit. We know now that EU workers make a huge contribution to both the economy and the country as a whole. More than none EU workers and much more than native Brit workers. We have already seen the damage before we leave with fruit now rotting in the fields and a huge drop in applications (Down 96%) from EU nurses and NHS staff. They would have been useful recently huh? The right to work, live, study and of course travel unrestricted across Europe is fantastic. The only reason Brexiteers see it as a dirty word is some of them just dont like funny foreigners and were convinced by the the likes of Farage, The Daily Mail and The Express over twenty years that EU immigrants were all spongers and a drain on our services when in fact the opposite is true it turns out.

You are not placing me on the spot by the way. This should all be stuff anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for four years should know without having to provide evidence anymore. The time for all that is over anyway. Its up to you and your Brexit government to deliver what you promised.


First the £10 for £1 issue. The headline says: ..."It’s an estimate based on a study, not solid fact,".... Not solid fact. We have already seen how accurate these forecasts are (not.)

Second the trade deficit: "The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£72 billion with the EU in 2019. A surplus of £23 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£95 billion on trade in goods. The UK had a trade surplus of £46 billion with non-EU countries. ..." So £95 billion is a small amount is it?

Third: Freedom of Movement. Are you aware that EU countries also have a shortage of low skilled labour and farmers in Germany cannot recruit enough farm labourers? So Freedom of Movement isn't solving that issue even before COVID.
"Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26

BERLIN, May 22 (Xinhua) -- German farmers are increasingly suffering from a shortage of seasonal workers who traditionally come from eastern Europe during harvest periods, the German Association of Agricultural Employers (GLFA) warned on Tuesday.

GLFA president Burkhard Moeller told press that strong economic growth in countries like Romania and Poland also meant that fewer people were attracted by the prospect of short-term jobs in German agriculture. "Looking forward, we see problems," Moeller said.

In 2016, a total of 286,000 seasonal migrants came to Germany to assist farmers during the harvest of popular consumer crops such as strawberries, asparagus and grapes.

In order to prevent resulting logistical bottlenecks from posing a threat to agricultural production the future, the GLFA demanded easier access to seasonal labor in the war-torn country of Ukraine."

Healthcare; Taken from 2010 "By 2020 Europe may be short of two million healthcare workers
Today, healthcare professions make up ten percent Europe’s workforce. The EU Commission calculates dramatic shortages in healthcare provision in the next decade unless countermeasures are taken now. " THe current situation throughout Europe is critical despite FoM.

So, why not bin the EU's useless FoM rules and welcome labour from outside the EU? Not exactly rocket science.

Environmental and worker's rights issues: You are merely speculating the worst case scenario. The UK has better worker's rights than most of the EU member countries and are not lacking in environmental regulations. You are trying to spread scare stories based on your own personal fears - nothing else.

As you might by now realise I haven't got my head in the sand and neither did I not make a point of financial gain being a benefit for Brexit. The UK has the worst deal of any EU member country. It makes financial, political and legal sense to leave. No longer can MPs hide behind the "EU Policy" or "EU Law" excuses and no longer will the UK be paying £ billions into the EU for it to be given out to other countries so they can spend that money on German, French, Dutch and Italian goods. No more paying Phillips and Bosch over the odds for their goods when Matsui and Hitachi can provide better goods for less. There are far more reasons to leave than to stay. If you got your own head from up your rear end you might actually see that.
userBarryd999
Posted: 5 July 2020 6:43 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Nicepix - 2020-07-05 4:13 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 3:41 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 12:01 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 10:02 AM

StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.


So you answer a comment about lack of evidence by layering on even more unevidenced statements.

When you say that the UK gets ten pounds for every pound back that they put in, how can you evidence that given the enormous deficit in trade? Where does that, frankly ridiculous statement come from?

As for environmental protections; are you saying that the UK Government is not capable of managing its own environmental protection policies? And why is Freedom of Movement a benefit to the UK?

Come on now. Let us hear how you come about those statements because simply saying that the facts have been posted on here for years every time you are placed on the spot is wearing a bit thin.


The ten pounds for every pound was part of the "Britain Stronger in Europe" campaign and ultimately is a bit of a best guess but a pretty accurate one. A full explanation here. https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-remain-do-we-get-10-for-every-1-we-put-into-the-eu-62085b8d7cb0 There isnt an enormous deficit in trade though. We buy in more than we export but its not an enormous gap. Either way there is little doubt we get back way more than we pay in. At the time when this evidence was produced the stock answer from Brexiteers was "its not all about the money" but they soon forget about that as its clearly a big factor.

So we did we get more back than we put in but the Brexit vote has seen a double Whammy as we are losing more off the economy than we ever put in by a country mile as well as losing all the benefits of membership that led to that claim.

Environmental protections, green issues, workers rights, human rights and animal welfare are all out of the window, of course they are. There is plenty of evidence already. The workers rights issue was one of the main concerns of Labour and the Lib Dems and partly responsible for the huge delay in Brexit getting through. The Brexiteer Tories simply cannot be trusted. Everyone should know that by now.

As for Freedom of movement, its a massive benefit. We know now that EU workers make a huge contribution to both the economy and the country as a whole. More than none EU workers and much more than native Brit workers. We have already seen the damage before we leave with fruit now rotting in the fields and a huge drop in applications (Down 96%) from EU nurses and NHS staff. They would have been useful recently huh? The right to work, live, study and of course travel unrestricted across Europe is fantastic. The only reason Brexiteers see it as a dirty word is some of them just dont like funny foreigners and were convinced by the the likes of Farage, The Daily Mail and The Express over twenty years that EU immigrants were all spongers and a drain on our services when in fact the opposite is true it turns out.

You are not placing me on the spot by the way. This should all be stuff anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for four years should know without having to provide evidence anymore. The time for all that is over anyway. Its up to you and your Brexit government to deliver what you promised.


First the £10 for £1 issue. The headline says: ..."It’s an estimate based on a study, not solid fact,".... Not solid fact. We have already seen how accurate these forecasts are (not.)

Second the trade deficit: "The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£72 billion with the EU in 2019. A surplus of £23 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£95 billion on trade in goods. The UK had a trade surplus of £46 billion with non-EU countries. ..." So £95 billion is a small amount is it?

Third: Freedom of Movement. Are you aware that EU countries also have a shortage of low skilled labour and farmers in Germany cannot recruit enough farm labourers? So Freedom of Movement isn't solving that issue even before COVID.
"Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26

BERLIN, May 22 (Xinhua) -- German farmers are increasingly suffering from a shortage of seasonal workers who traditionally come from eastern Europe during harvest periods, the German Association of Agricultural Employers (GLFA) warned on Tuesday.

GLFA president Burkhard Moeller told press that strong economic growth in countries like Romania and Poland also meant that fewer people were attracted by the prospect of short-term jobs in German agriculture. "Looking forward, we see problems," Moeller said.

In 2016, a total of 286,000 seasonal migrants came to Germany to assist farmers during the harvest of popular consumer crops such as strawberries, asparagus and grapes.

In order to prevent resulting logistical bottlenecks from posing a threat to agricultural production the future, the GLFA demanded easier access to seasonal labor in the war-torn country of Ukraine."

Healthcare; Taken from 2010 "By 2020 Europe may be short of two million healthcare workers
Today, healthcare professions make up ten percent Europe’s workforce. The EU Commission calculates dramatic shortages in healthcare provision in the next decade unless countermeasures are taken now. " THe current situation throughout Europe is critical despite FoM.

So, why not bin the EU's useless FoM rules and welcome labour from outside the EU? Not exactly rocket science.

Environmental and worker's rights issues: You are merely speculating the worst case scenario. The UK has better worker's rights than most of the EU member countries and are not lacking in environmental regulations. You are trying to spread scare stories based on your own personal fears - nothing else.

As you might by now realise I haven't got my head in the sand and neither did I not make a point of financial gain being a benefit for Brexit. The UK has the worst deal of any EU member country. It makes financial, political and legal sense to leave. No longer can MPs hide behind the "EU Policy" or "EU Law" excuses and no longer will the UK be paying £ billions into the EU for it to be given out to other countries so they can spend that money on German, French, Dutch and Italian goods. No more paying Phillips and Bosch over the odds for their goods when Matsui and Hitachi can provide better goods for less. There are far more reasons to leave than to stay. If you got your own head from up your rear end you might actually see that.


Why bother plagiarising other peoples "opinions", just post the link. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-05/23/c_137198680.htm

So the Brexiteers are worried about Germans not getting enough workers now. Well I go to the bottom of our stairs! If you read the link I posted regarding the £10 for £1 it was scrutinised by the CBI and the summary is its a fair assumption. Its impossible to quote facts on something like this down to the nearest pound but for sure its a positive rather than a negative which is why as I said from the top of this the vast majority of economists would agree.

That deficit is not much in the great scheme of things no. Whats worrying though is how you think we will address that deficit by cutting ourselves off from the world and putting barriers to trade up. Even the Brexiteers own economists predict Brexit will be the end of whats left of manufacturing and the bulk of our economy is services and the main reason for that is our gateway into the Single market. So pray do tell, what will we be flogging to who in this brave new world?

Singapore on Thames I suspect. That wont be much good if you are one of the many who work in Automotive or live in the North East which is the only net export manufacturer in the country and stands to be the hardest hit by any kind of Brexit.
userNicepix
Posted: 5 July 2020 7:23 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
Gets involved

Posts: 270
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Location: France Burstner T-Star 695 / Merc' 316


Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 7:43 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 4:13 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 3:41 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 12:01 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 10:02 AM

StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.


So you answer a comment about lack of evidence by layering on even more unevidenced statements.

When you say that the UK gets ten pounds for every pound back that they put in, how can you evidence that given the enormous deficit in trade? Where does that, frankly ridiculous statement come from?

As for environmental protections; are you saying that the UK Government is not capable of managing its own environmental protection policies? And why is Freedom of Movement a benefit to the UK?

Come on now. Let us hear how you come about those statements because simply saying that the facts have been posted on here for years every time you are placed on the spot is wearing a bit thin.


The ten pounds for every pound was part of the "Britain Stronger in Europe" campaign and ultimately is a bit of a best guess but a pretty accurate one. A full explanation here. https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-remain-do-we-get-10-for-every-1-we-put-into-the-eu-62085b8d7cb0 There isnt an enormous deficit in trade though. We buy in more than we export but its not an enormous gap. Either way there is little doubt we get back way more than we pay in. At the time when this evidence was produced the stock answer from Brexiteers was "its not all about the money" but they soon forget about that as its clearly a big factor.

So we did we get more back than we put in but the Brexit vote has seen a double Whammy as we are losing more off the economy than we ever put in by a country mile as well as losing all the benefits of membership that led to that claim.

Environmental protections, green issues, workers rights, human rights and animal welfare are all out of the window, of course they are. There is plenty of evidence already. The workers rights issue was one of the main concerns of Labour and the Lib Dems and partly responsible for the huge delay in Brexit getting through. The Brexiteer Tories simply cannot be trusted. Everyone should know that by now.

As for Freedom of movement, its a massive benefit. We know now that EU workers make a huge contribution to both the economy and the country as a whole. More than none EU workers and much more than native Brit workers. We have already seen the damage before we leave with fruit now rotting in the fields and a huge drop in applications (Down 96%) from EU nurses and NHS staff. They would have been useful recently huh? The right to work, live, study and of course travel unrestricted across Europe is fantastic. The only reason Brexiteers see it as a dirty word is some of them just dont like funny foreigners and were convinced by the the likes of Farage, The Daily Mail and The Express over twenty years that EU immigrants were all spongers and a drain on our services when in fact the opposite is true it turns out.

You are not placing me on the spot by the way. This should all be stuff anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for four years should know without having to provide evidence anymore. The time for all that is over anyway. Its up to you and your Brexit government to deliver what you promised.


First the £10 for £1 issue. The headline says: ..."It’s an estimate based on a study, not solid fact,".... Not solid fact. We have already seen how accurate these forecasts are (not.)

Second the trade deficit: "The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£72 billion with the EU in 2019. A surplus of £23 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£95 billion on trade in goods. The UK had a trade surplus of £46 billion with non-EU countries. ..." So £95 billion is a small amount is it?

Third: Freedom of Movement. Are you aware that EU countries also have a shortage of low skilled labour and farmers in Germany cannot recruit enough farm labourers? So Freedom of Movement isn't solving that issue even before COVID.
"Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26

BERLIN, May 22 (Xinhua) -- German farmers are increasingly suffering from a shortage of seasonal workers who traditionally come from eastern Europe during harvest periods, the German Association of Agricultural Employers (GLFA) warned on Tuesday.

GLFA president Burkhard Moeller told press that strong economic growth in countries like Romania and Poland also meant that fewer people were attracted by the prospect of short-term jobs in German agriculture. "Looking forward, we see problems," Moeller said.

In 2016, a total of 286,000 seasonal migrants came to Germany to assist farmers during the harvest of popular consumer crops such as strawberries, asparagus and grapes.

In order to prevent resulting logistical bottlenecks from posing a threat to agricultural production the future, the GLFA demanded easier access to seasonal labor in the war-torn country of Ukraine."

Healthcare; Taken from 2010 "By 2020 Europe may be short of two million healthcare workers
Today, healthcare professions make up ten percent Europe’s workforce. The EU Commission calculates dramatic shortages in healthcare provision in the next decade unless countermeasures are taken now. " THe current situation throughout Europe is critical despite FoM.

So, why not bin the EU's useless FoM rules and welcome labour from outside the EU? Not exactly rocket science.

Environmental and worker's rights issues: You are merely speculating the worst case scenario. The UK has better worker's rights than most of the EU member countries and are not lacking in environmental regulations. You are trying to spread scare stories based on your own personal fears - nothing else.

As you might by now realise I haven't got my head in the sand and neither did I not make a point of financial gain being a benefit for Brexit. The UK has the worst deal of any EU member country. It makes financial, political and legal sense to leave. No longer can MPs hide behind the "EU Policy" or "EU Law" excuses and no longer will the UK be paying £ billions into the EU for it to be given out to other countries so they can spend that money on German, French, Dutch and Italian goods. No more paying Phillips and Bosch over the odds for their goods when Matsui and Hitachi can provide better goods for less. There are far more reasons to leave than to stay. If you got your own head from up your rear end you might actually see that.


Why bother plagiarising other peoples "opinions", just post the link. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-05/23/c_137198680.htm

So the Brexiteers are worried about Germans not getting enough workers now. Well I go to the bottom of our stairs! If you read the link I posted regarding the £10 for £1 it was scrutinised by the CBI and the summary is its a fair assumption. Its impossible to quote facts on something like this down to the nearest pound but for sure its a positive rather than a negative which is why as I said from the top of this the vast majority of economists would agree.

That deficit is not much in the great scheme of things no. Whats worrying though is how you think we will address that deficit by cutting ourselves off from the world and putting barriers to trade up. Even the Brexiteers own economists predict Brexit will be the end of whats left of manufacturing and the bulk of our economy is services and the main reason for that is our gateway into the Single market. So pray do tell, what will we be flogging to who in this brave new world?

Singapore on Thames I suspect. That wont be much good if you are one of the many who work in Automotive or live in the North East which is the only net export manufacturer in the country and stands to be the hardest hit by any kind of Brexit.


I included the source of the quote. It is in the line above the word BERLIN "Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26"

You are trying so hard to discredit me that you can't see the facts before your eyes.

Again and again you post speculation with no evidence behind them, just opinions or speculation that suit your cause whilst ignoring any opinions that contradict them. "Cutting off from the World"? How many countries are part of the WTO? I'll bet it is quite a few more than there are in the EU. You really are blind to the bigger picture.

Look around you. The EU is a protectionist self-serving monolith that does the UK no favours. Their attitude to the UK's decision is nothing short of scandulous. They are acting like some American Mafia trying to bully and browbeat a former member country to abide by their ways. The UK is their biggest market. Can you honestly see them cutting off free trade that suits them 2:1 after losing the UK's annual contributions?

And I'm not worried about the Germans losing workers. They will overcome that. In fact they are flying in thousands of Bulgarians and Romanians to pick crops on short term contracts. But, again you miss the bigger picture. Even with FoM rich countries cannot get enough cheap labour from within the EU and EU rules prevent member states from recruiting from outside the EU. But why let facts get in the way of your opinions?
userBulletguy
Posted: 5 July 2020 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


The special one

Posts: 13735
500050002000100050010010025
Location: Cheshire


Nicepix - 2020-07-05 4:13 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 3:41 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 12:01 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 10:02 AM

StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.


So you answer a comment about lack of evidence by layering on even more unevidenced statements.

When you say that the UK gets ten pounds for every pound back that they put in, how can you evidence that given the enormous deficit in trade? Where does that, frankly ridiculous statement come from?

As for environmental protections; are you saying that the UK Government is not capable of managing its own environmental protection policies? And why is Freedom of Movement a benefit to the UK?

Come on now. Let us hear how you come about those statements because simply saying that the facts have been posted on here for years every time you are placed on the spot is wearing a bit thin.


The ten pounds for every pound was part of the "Britain Stronger in Europe" campaign and ultimately is a bit of a best guess but a pretty accurate one. A full explanation here. https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-remain-do-we-get-10-for-every-1-we-put-into-the-eu-62085b8d7cb0 There isnt an enormous deficit in trade though. We buy in more than we export but its not an enormous gap. Either way there is little doubt we get back way more than we pay in. At the time when this evidence was produced the stock answer from Brexiteers was "its not all about the money" but they soon forget about that as its clearly a big factor.

So we did we get more back than we put in but the Brexit vote has seen a double Whammy as we are losing more off the economy than we ever put in by a country mile as well as losing all the benefits of membership that led to that claim.

Environmental protections, green issues, workers rights, human rights and animal welfare are all out of the window, of course they are. There is plenty of evidence already. The workers rights issue was one of the main concerns of Labour and the Lib Dems and partly responsible for the huge delay in Brexit getting through. The Brexiteer Tories simply cannot be trusted. Everyone should know that by now.

As for Freedom of movement, its a massive benefit. We know now that EU workers make a huge contribution to both the economy and the country as a whole. More than none EU workers and much more than native Brit workers. We have already seen the damage before we leave with fruit now rotting in the fields and a huge drop in applications (Down 96%) from EU nurses and NHS staff. They would have been useful recently huh? The right to work, live, study and of course travel unrestricted across Europe is fantastic. The only reason Brexiteers see it as a dirty word is some of them just dont like funny foreigners and were convinced by the the likes of Farage, The Daily Mail and The Express over twenty years that EU immigrants were all spongers and a drain on our services when in fact the opposite is true it turns out.

You are not placing me on the spot by the way. This should all be stuff anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for four years should know without having to provide evidence anymore. The time for all that is over anyway. Its up to you and your Brexit government to deliver what you promised.


Freedom of Movement. Are you aware that EU countries also have a shortage of low skilled labour and farmers in Germany cannot recruit enough farm labourers? So Freedom of Movement isn't solving that issue even before COVID.
"Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26

BERLIN, May 22 (Xinhua) -- German farmers are increasingly suffering from a shortage of seasonal workers who traditionally come from eastern Europe during harvest periods, the German Association of Agricultural Employers (GLFA) warned on Tuesday.

Ending it as UK intend to won't solve it either as we have already discovered with our own fruit and veg farmers flying in hundreds of Romanians to do the work Brits were offered, but out of 900 applicants only 112 took the job on despite government trumpeting a "Pick for Britain" campaign. Not many are keen to do back breaking labouring work.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/17/fruit-picking-jobs-rejected-nearly-85-per-cent-british-workers/
https://pickforbritain.org.uk/


Healthcare; Taken from 2010 "By 2020 Europe may be short of two million healthcare workers
Today, healthcare professions make up ten percent Europe’s workforce. The EU Commission calculates dramatic shortages in healthcare provision in the next decade unless countermeasures are taken now. " THe current situation throughout Europe is critical despite FoM.

So, why not bin the EU's useless FoM rules and welcome labour from outside the EU? Not exactly rocket science.

The article you lifted that from doesn't state the current situation as being "critical despite FoM" does it? That's just your personal opinion, something you take exception to others expressing when not in line with yours. As the article states, due to increased life expectancy we need to recruit more healthcare professionals. As people are living longer that seems a fairly logical point to me.

It's ironic you of all people want to "bin the EU's useless FoM rules", the same which enabled you to set down roots to live in France, something post transition you would find much more difficult to achieve as a third country citizen. This is the attitude of a few Brit immigrants fortunate enough to have already made the move to retire to their preferred country, but don't want any other Brits to have that pleasure. We even had a couple of crackpots who flew back from their sun-kissed villa lifestyle in Benidorm wearing naff anti-EU badges to vote to end their own FoM.

https://tinyurl.com/ybozlt7z
userNicepix
Posted: 5 July 2020 9:18 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
Gets involved

Posts: 270
1001002525
Location: France Burstner T-Star 695 / Merc' 316


Bulletguy - 2020-07-05 9:42 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 4:13 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 3:41 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 12:01 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 10:02 AM

StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.


So you answer a comment about lack of evidence by layering on even more unevidenced statements.

When you say that the UK gets ten pounds for every pound back that they put in, how can you evidence that given the enormous deficit in trade? Where does that, frankly ridiculous statement come from?

As for environmental protections; are you saying that the UK Government is not capable of managing its own environmental protection policies? And why is Freedom of Movement a benefit to the UK?

Come on now. Let us hear how you come about those statements because simply saying that the facts have been posted on here for years every time you are placed on the spot is wearing a bit thin.


The ten pounds for every pound was part of the "Britain Stronger in Europe" campaign and ultimately is a bit of a best guess but a pretty accurate one. A full explanation here. https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-remain-do-we-get-10-for-every-1-we-put-into-the-eu-62085b8d7cb0 There isnt an enormous deficit in trade though. We buy in more than we export but its not an enormous gap. Either way there is little doubt we get back way more than we pay in. At the time when this evidence was produced the stock answer from Brexiteers was "its not all about the money" but they soon forget about that as its clearly a big factor.

So we did we get more back than we put in but the Brexit vote has seen a double Whammy as we are losing more off the economy than we ever put in by a country mile as well as losing all the benefits of membership that led to that claim.

Environmental protections, green issues, workers rights, human rights and animal welfare are all out of the window, of course they are. There is plenty of evidence already. The workers rights issue was one of the main concerns of Labour and the Lib Dems and partly responsible for the huge delay in Brexit getting through. The Brexiteer Tories simply cannot be trusted. Everyone should know that by now.

As for Freedom of movement, its a massive benefit. We know now that EU workers make a huge contribution to both the economy and the country as a whole. More than none EU workers and much more than native Brit workers. We have already seen the damage before we leave with fruit now rotting in the fields and a huge drop in applications (Down 96%) from EU nurses and NHS staff. They would have been useful recently huh? The right to work, live, study and of course travel unrestricted across Europe is fantastic. The only reason Brexiteers see it as a dirty word is some of them just dont like funny foreigners and were convinced by the the likes of Farage, The Daily Mail and The Express over twenty years that EU immigrants were all spongers and a drain on our services when in fact the opposite is true it turns out.

You are not placing me on the spot by the way. This should all be stuff anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for four years should know without having to provide evidence anymore. The time for all that is over anyway. Its up to you and your Brexit government to deliver what you promised.


Freedom of Movement. Are you aware that EU countries also have a shortage of low skilled labour and farmers in Germany cannot recruit enough farm labourers? So Freedom of Movement isn't solving that issue even before COVID.
"Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26

BERLIN, May 22 (Xinhua) -- German farmers are increasingly suffering from a shortage of seasonal workers who traditionally come from eastern Europe during harvest periods, the German Association of Agricultural Employers (GLFA) warned on Tuesday.

Ending it as UK intend to won't solve it either as we have already discovered with our own fruit and veg farmers flying in hundreds of Romanians to do the work Brits were offered, but out of 900 applicants only 112 took the job on despite government trumpeting a "Pick for Britain" campaign. Not many are keen to do back breaking labouring work.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/17/fruit-picking-jobs-rejected-nearly-85-per-cent-british-workers/
https://pickforbritain.org.uk/


Healthcare; Taken from 2010 "By 2020 Europe may be short of two million healthcare workers
Today, healthcare professions make up ten percent Europe’s workforce. The EU Commission calculates dramatic shortages in healthcare provision in the next decade unless countermeasures are taken now. " THe current situation throughout Europe is critical despite FoM.

So, why not bin the EU's useless FoM rules and welcome labour from outside the EU? Not exactly rocket science.

The article you lifted that from doesn't state the current situation as being "critical despite FoM" does it? That's just your personal opinion, something you take exception to others expressing when not in line with yours. As the article states, due to increased life expectancy we need to recruit more healthcare professionals. As people are living longer that seems a fairly logical point to me.

It's ironic you of all people want to "bin the EU's useless FoM rules", the same which enabled you to set down roots to live in France, something post transition you would find much more difficult to achieve as a third country citizen. This is the attitude of a few Brit immigrants fortunate enough to have already made the move to retire to their preferred country, but don't want any other Brits to have that pleasure. We even had a couple of crackpots who flew back from their sun-kissed villa lifestyle in Benidorm wearing naff anti-EU badges to vote to end their own FoM.

https://tinyurl.com/ybozlt7z


Now you are getting all flustered

FoM was in place during the period that the employment crisis was reported. Also, EU restrictions on non-EU workers were in place during this time. So my comment is perfectly accurate. You just cannot resolve that FoM and EU restrictions on foreign workers aren't working. That is why Germany is so keen to house migrants. It solves their problem. The UK already has enough spongers so doesn't need any more.

Getting people off the dole and into employment is a problem that has yet to be solved. But that does not alter the fact that FoM and EU restrictions on non-EU workers is not the answer to the problem.

Many Brits have emigrated all over the world to places outside the EU. FoM made it easier for the relatively few who wanted to move to EU countries but it is hardly worth paying that price if it ruins the UK. As it is we have had to and will have to jump through a few more hoops to be able to stay, but that is only the same if we had wanted to go to the States or Australia.

Any more desperate points to make?
usercolin
Posted: 5 July 2020 11:22 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


Legendary contributor

Posts: 8176
500020001000100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


I think we should look on the positive side.
The most optimistic Brexiteers think we might break even in 10 years, other Brexiteers think 2060, by 2064 we should have made the final payments into EU for the divorce bill. Nigel Farage said " “I never said it would be a beneficial thing to leave and everyone would be better off, just that we would be self-governing.”

Edited by colin 2020-07-05 11:24 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 6 July 2020 12:25 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


The special one

Posts: 13735
500050002000100050010010025
Location: Cheshire


Nicepix - 2020-07-05 7:23 PM

Look around you. The EU is a protectionist self-serving monolith that does the UK no favours. Their attitude to the UK's decision is nothing short of scandulous. They are acting like some American Mafia trying to bully and browbeat a former member country to abide by their ways.

We did ourselves no favours by constant cherry picking whatever we wanted behaving like little colonialists who still believed we ruled an Empire. Far from 'bullying' and 'browbeating', that 'self serving protectionist monolith' you describe is what's looking after the interests of it's member states.....one of which you've chosen to reside in! We cancelled our club membership so why should the 'club' bow to our wishes and interests? We once had a seat at the table until 37% of the electorate chose to give it up so now the time has come for them to deliver on their promises....and so far it's not going too well. They've got an awful lot of promises to meet.


And I'm not worried about the Germans losing workers. They will overcome that. In fact they are flying in thousands of Bulgarians and Romanians to pick crops on short term contracts. But, again you miss the bigger picture. Even with FoM rich countries cannot get enough cheap labour from within the EU and EU rules prevent member states from recruiting from outside the EU. But why let facts get in the way of your opinions?

Germany has had Turkish gastarbeiters for years.

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 9:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2020-07-05 9:42 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 4:13 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 3:41 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 12:01 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 10:02 AM

StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.


So you answer a comment about lack of evidence by layering on even more unevidenced statements.

When you say that the UK gets ten pounds for every pound back that they put in, how can you evidence that given the enormous deficit in trade? Where does that, frankly ridiculous statement come from?

As for environmental protections; are you saying that the UK Government is not capable of managing its own environmental protection policies? And why is Freedom of Movement a benefit to the UK?

Come on now. Let us hear how you come about those statements because simply saying that the facts have been posted on here for years every time you are placed on the spot is wearing a bit thin.


The ten pounds for every pound was part of the "Britain Stronger in Europe" campaign and ultimately is a bit of a best guess but a pretty accurate one. A full explanation here. https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-remain-do-we-get-10-for-every-1-we-put-into-the-eu-62085b8d7cb0 There isnt an enormous deficit in trade though. We buy in more than we export but its not an enormous gap. Either way there is little doubt we get back way more than we pay in. At the time when this evidence was produced the stock answer from Brexiteers was "its not all about the money" but they soon forget about that as its clearly a big factor.

So we did we get more back than we put in but the Brexit vote has seen a double Whammy as we are losing more off the economy than we ever put in by a country mile as well as losing all the benefits of membership that led to that claim.

Environmental protections, green issues, workers rights, human rights and animal welfare are all out of the window, of course they are. There is plenty of evidence already. The workers rights issue was one of the main concerns of Labour and the Lib Dems and partly responsible for the huge delay in Brexit getting through. The Brexiteer Tories simply cannot be trusted. Everyone should know that by now.

As for Freedom of movement, its a massive benefit. We know now that EU workers make a huge contribution to both the economy and the country as a whole. More than none EU workers and much more than native Brit workers. We have already seen the damage before we leave with fruit now rotting in the fields and a huge drop in applications (Down 96%) from EU nurses and NHS staff. They would have been useful recently huh? The right to work, live, study and of course travel unrestricted across Europe is fantastic. The only reason Brexiteers see it as a dirty word is some of them just dont like funny foreigners and were convinced by the the likes of Farage, The Daily Mail and The Express over twenty years that EU immigrants were all spongers and a drain on our services when in fact the opposite is true it turns out.

You are not placing me on the spot by the way. This should all be stuff anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for four years should know without having to provide evidence anymore. The time for all that is over anyway. Its up to you and your Brexit government to deliver what you promised.


Freedom of Movement. Are you aware that EU countries also have a shortage of low skilled labour and farmers in Germany cannot recruit enough farm labourers? So Freedom of Movement isn't solving that issue even before COVID.
"Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26

BERLIN, May 22 (Xinhua) -- German farmers are increasingly suffering from a shortage of seasonal workers who traditionally come from eastern Europe during harvest periods, the German Association of Agricultural Employers (GLFA) warned on Tuesday.

Ending it as UK intend to won't solve it either as we have already discovered with our own fruit and veg farmers flying in hundreds of Romanians to do the work Brits were offered, but out of 900 applicants only 112 took the job on despite government trumpeting a "Pick for Britain" campaign. Not many are keen to do back breaking labouring work.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/17/fruit-picking-jobs-rejected-nearly-85-per-cent-british-workers/
https://pickforbritain.org.uk/


Healthcare; Taken from 2010 "By 2020 Europe may be short of two million healthcare workers
Today, healthcare professions make up ten percent Europe’s workforce. The EU Commission calculates dramatic shortages in healthcare provision in the next decade unless countermeasures are taken now. " THe current situation throughout Europe is critical despite FoM.

So, why not bin the EU's useless FoM rules and welcome labour from outside the EU? Not exactly rocket science.

The article you lifted that from doesn't state the current situation as being "critical despite FoM" does it? That's just your personal opinion, something you take exception to others expressing when not in line with yours. As the article states, due to increased life expectancy we need to recruit more healthcare professionals. As people are living longer that seems a fairly logical point to me.

It's ironic you of all people want to "bin the EU's useless FoM rules", the same which enabled you to set down roots to live in France, something post transition you would find much more difficult to achieve as a third country citizen. This is the attitude of a few Brit immigrants fortunate enough to have already made the move to retire to their preferred country, but don't want any other Brits to have that pleasure. We even had a couple of crackpots who flew back from their sun-kissed villa lifestyle in Benidorm wearing naff anti-EU badges to vote to end their own FoM.

https://tinyurl.com/ybozlt7z


Now you are getting all flustered

FoM was in place during the period that the employment crisis was reported. Also, EU restrictions on non-EU workers were in place during this time. So my comment is perfectly accurate. You just cannot resolve that FoM and EU restrictions on foreign workers aren't working. That is why Germany is so keen to house migrants. It solves their problem. The UK already has enough spongers so doesn't need any more.

Getting people off the dole and into employment is a problem that has yet to be solved. But that does not alter the fact that FoM and EU restrictions on non-EU workers is not the answer to the problem.

We've already gone through that and i linked an article explaining how we flew in Romanians because few jobless Brits were willing to step up to the plate. Who are these 'spongers' you speak of?

Many Brits have emigrated all over the world to places outside the EU. FoM made it easier for the relatively few who wanted to move to EU countries but it is hardly worth paying that price if it ruins the UK. As it is we have had to and will have to jump through a few more hoops to be able to stay, but that is only the same if we had wanted to go to the States or Australia.

Any more desperate points to make?

It's a very valid point and obviously hit a sensitive spot as it should do. Quite why British people like yourself move to live in a country, only to rail against the institution which gave you the FoM to lay down those roots, is beyond me. If so sincere about your dislike of the EU, then move back to the UK and see how you fare applying for French citizenship or residency in five years time.
userBulletguy
Posted: 6 July 2020 12:35 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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colin - 2020-07-05 11:22 PM

I think we should look on the positive side.
The most optimistic Brexiteers think we might break even in 10 years, other Brexiteers think 2060, by 2064 we should have made the final payments into EU for the divorce bill. Nigel Farage said " “I never said it would be a beneficial thing to leave and everyone would be better off, just that we would be self-governing.”

Because he's another self interested "i'm alright Jack". Once he saw the dirty deed was done, like many others he scurried off to jump into the first lifeboat! Two of his children also applied for German passports. The rank hypocrisy of Brexit cheerleaders has been staggering.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/brexit-leaders-prove-that-the-campaign-to-leave-the-eu-was-entirely-driven-by-self-interests/04/06/
userjumpstart
Posted: 6 July 2020 7:12 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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Whatever his reasons are for living in France his points on the uselessness of the EU are valid. I voted to leave but didn’t do it for some instant gratification,I knew this is a long term viewpoint. Funding low wage countries to make their economy more efficient and competitive with other EU countries only increases their wages to even the standard,at our cost. The bureaucratic infighting in the EU will and is pulling it apart.
userJohn52
Posted: 6 July 2020 7:19 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Its all irrelevant when the immigrants are illegal enticed by England's black economy - shown again by the garment workers in Leicester.
We need to sort out the black economy.
But immigration drives down wages, and drives up housing costs, both of which seems to suit the Landlord dominated Government.
So they have long treated illegal immigration in a half-hearted manner, preferring to blame it on the EU like the rest of their own failings. And the Tory dominated press helped them get away with it.
userpelmetman
Posted: 6 July 2020 8:56 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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John52 - 2020-07-06 7:19 AM

Its all irrelevant when the immigrants are illegal enticed by England's black economy - shown again by the garment workers in Leicester.
We need to sort out the black economy.
But immigration drives down wages, and drives up housing costs, both of which seems to suit the Landlord dominated Government.
So they have long treated illegal immigration in a half-hearted manner, preferring to blame it on the EU like the rest of their own failings. And the Tory dominated press helped them get away with it.


So as per usual you ignore our and the EU's Loony Lefty Liberal justice systems that prevent us from kicking out illegal immigrants, and blame Boris and the Tories instead ............



userBarryd999
Posted: 6 July 2020 10:03 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Nicepix - 2020-07-05 7:23 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 7:43 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 4:13 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 3:41 PM

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 12:01 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 10:02 AM

StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.


So you answer a comment about lack of evidence by layering on even more unevidenced statements.

When you say that the UK gets ten pounds for every pound back that they put in, how can you evidence that given the enormous deficit in trade? Where does that, frankly ridiculous statement come from?

As for environmental protections; are you saying that the UK Government is not capable of managing its own environmental protection policies? And why is Freedom of Movement a benefit to the UK?

Come on now. Let us hear how you come about those statements because simply saying that the facts have been posted on here for years every time you are placed on the spot is wearing a bit thin.


The ten pounds for every pound was part of the "Britain Stronger in Europe" campaign and ultimately is a bit of a best guess but a pretty accurate one. A full explanation here. https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-remain-do-we-get-10-for-every-1-we-put-into-the-eu-62085b8d7cb0 There isnt an enormous deficit in trade though. We buy in more than we export but its not an enormous gap. Either way there is little doubt we get back way more than we pay in. At the time when this evidence was produced the stock answer from Brexiteers was "its not all about the money" but they soon forget about that as its clearly a big factor.

So we did we get more back than we put in but the Brexit vote has seen a double Whammy as we are losing more off the economy than we ever put in by a country mile as well as losing all the benefits of membership that led to that claim.

Environmental protections, green issues, workers rights, human rights and animal welfare are all out of the window, of course they are. There is plenty of evidence already. The workers rights issue was one of the main concerns of Labour and the Lib Dems and partly responsible for the huge delay in Brexit getting through. The Brexiteer Tories simply cannot be trusted. Everyone should know that by now.

As for Freedom of movement, its a massive benefit. We know now that EU workers make a huge contribution to both the economy and the country as a whole. More than none EU workers and much more than native Brit workers. We have already seen the damage before we leave with fruit now rotting in the fields and a huge drop in applications (Down 96%) from EU nurses and NHS staff. They would have been useful recently huh? The right to work, live, study and of course travel unrestricted across Europe is fantastic. The only reason Brexiteers see it as a dirty word is some of them just dont like funny foreigners and were convinced by the the likes of Farage, The Daily Mail and The Express over twenty years that EU immigrants were all spongers and a drain on our services when in fact the opposite is true it turns out.

You are not placing me on the spot by the way. This should all be stuff anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for four years should know without having to provide evidence anymore. The time for all that is over anyway. Its up to you and your Brexit government to deliver what you promised.


First the £10 for £1 issue. The headline says: ..."It’s an estimate based on a study, not solid fact,".... Not solid fact. We have already seen how accurate these forecasts are (not.)

Second the trade deficit: "The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£72 billion with the EU in 2019. A surplus of £23 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£95 billion on trade in goods. The UK had a trade surplus of £46 billion with non-EU countries. ..." So £95 billion is a small amount is it?

Third: Freedom of Movement. Are you aware that EU countries also have a shortage of low skilled labour and farmers in Germany cannot recruit enough farm labourers? So Freedom of Movement isn't solving that issue even before COVID.
"Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26

BERLIN, May 22 (Xinhua) -- German farmers are increasingly suffering from a shortage of seasonal workers who traditionally come from eastern Europe during harvest periods, the German Association of Agricultural Employers (GLFA) warned on Tuesday.

GLFA president Burkhard Moeller told press that strong economic growth in countries like Romania and Poland also meant that fewer people were attracted by the prospect of short-term jobs in German agriculture. "Looking forward, we see problems," Moeller said.

In 2016, a total of 286,000 seasonal migrants came to Germany to assist farmers during the harvest of popular consumer crops such as strawberries, asparagus and grapes.

In order to prevent resulting logistical bottlenecks from posing a threat to agricultural production the future, the GLFA demanded easier access to seasonal labor in the war-torn country of Ukraine."

Healthcare; Taken from 2010 "By 2020 Europe may be short of two million healthcare workers
Today, healthcare professions make up ten percent Europe’s workforce. The EU Commission calculates dramatic shortages in healthcare provision in the next decade unless countermeasures are taken now. " THe current situation throughout Europe is critical despite FoM.

So, why not bin the EU's useless FoM rules and welcome labour from outside the EU? Not exactly rocket science.

Environmental and worker's rights issues: You are merely speculating the worst case scenario. The UK has better worker's rights than most of the EU member countries and are not lacking in environmental regulations. You are trying to spread scare stories based on your own personal fears - nothing else.

As you might by now realise I haven't got my head in the sand and neither did I not make a point of financial gain being a benefit for Brexit. The UK has the worst deal of any EU member country. It makes financial, political and legal sense to leave. No longer can MPs hide behind the "EU Policy" or "EU Law" excuses and no longer will the UK be paying £ billions into the EU for it to be given out to other countries so they can spend that money on German, French, Dutch and Italian goods. No more paying Phillips and Bosch over the odds for their goods when Matsui and Hitachi can provide better goods for less. There are far more reasons to leave than to stay. If you got your own head from up your rear end you might actually see that.


Why bother plagiarising other peoples "opinions", just post the link. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-05/23/c_137198680.htm

So the Brexiteers are worried about Germans not getting enough workers now. Well I go to the bottom of our stairs! If you read the link I posted regarding the £10 for £1 it was scrutinised by the CBI and the summary is its a fair assumption. Its impossible to quote facts on something like this down to the nearest pound but for sure its a positive rather than a negative which is why as I said from the top of this the vast majority of economists would agree.

That deficit is not much in the great scheme of things no. Whats worrying though is how you think we will address that deficit by cutting ourselves off from the world and putting barriers to trade up. Even the Brexiteers own economists predict Brexit will be the end of whats left of manufacturing and the bulk of our economy is services and the main reason for that is our gateway into the Single market. So pray do tell, what will we be flogging to who in this brave new world?

Singapore on Thames I suspect. That wont be much good if you are one of the many who work in Automotive or live in the North East which is the only net export manufacturer in the country and stands to be the hardest hit by any kind of Brexit.


I included the source of the quote. It is in the line above the word BERLIN "Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26"

You are trying so hard to discredit me that you can't see the facts before your eyes.

Again and again you post speculation with no evidence behind them, just opinions or speculation that suit your cause whilst ignoring any opinions that contradict them. "Cutting off from the World"? How many countries are part of the WTO? I'll bet it is quite a few more than there are in the EU. You really are blind to the bigger picture.

Look around you. The EU is a protectionist self-serving monolith that does the UK no favours. Their attitude to the UK's decision is nothing short of scandulous. They are acting like some American Mafia trying to bully and browbeat a former member country to abide by their ways. The UK is their biggest market. Can you honestly see them cutting off free trade that suits them 2:1 after losing the UK's annual contributions?

And I'm not worried about the Germans losing workers. They will overcome that. In fact they are flying in thousands of Bulgarians and Romanians to pick crops on short term contracts. But, again you miss the bigger picture. Even with FoM rich countries cannot get enough cheap labour from within the EU and EU rules prevent member states from recruiting from outside the EU. But why let facts get in the way of your opinions?


I am not trying to discredit you, you are doing a good job of that yourself.

There are 164 countries in the WTO but not a single country trades solely on WTO membership. Pretty much everyone is part of some kind of trading bloc.

I am sure the EU does not want to lose the trade its members have with the UK or make it difficult but as Bullet has pointed out to you it has to protect its members one of which it seems is a country you actually now live in. Ferkin Ell!

This was the big gamble of you Brexiteers. You assumed the EU would just cave because the UK is somehow "Special" but as a total we only amount to (I Think without looking) 8% of the EU 27's trade. Whereas nearly half of ours is with the EU 27. Let that sink in. I think its great that they are protecting and supporting their members. We chose to go rogue and so far it seems your gamble that they need us more than we need them has gone tits up. Well maybe not so much for you as you dont even fecking live here and are yourself an immigrant living in France thanks to Free movement of people. You really couldnt make that one up.

Edited by Barryd999 2020-07-06 10:04 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 6 July 2020 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


jumpstart - 2020-07-06 7:12 AM...………….. Funding low wage countries to make their economy more efficient and competitive with other EU countries only increases their wages to even the standard,at our cost.

Are you arguing that the above logic will have different results if instead we trade with non-EU countries? That, I thought, was the whole point of both the EU and the WTO.

As those low wage countries become high wage countries, they will begin buying more from the rest of the world, so that everyone benefits.

That is the logical basis on which the EEC/EU was founded. So, if the same logic is to apply to the rest of the world, where it is to be considered good, why is it not good when applied to the EU, as you seem to be arguing?
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