Mick H. Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 so has the latest money grabbing scheme against motorists in london been discussed on here or can every motorhomer afford to pay £100-00p a day to drive even to the fringes of London,' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingpete Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 It has come up in several threads. I am one of the afflicted, living in London, keeping van in Kent. Every time I need to bring it home to load, it will cost £100 to park on my drive. No concessions on offer from TFL. But if you 'van is petrol, no charge. Seems even fire engines and dustcarts wil have to comply. Ambiguity in the ap;lication for Non GB regd vahicles. If they stay here they pay, if passing through looks like exempt. Get a imported van and keep quiet ! :-> Go to their website tfl.gov.uk/lezlondon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick H. Posted December 3, 2007 Author Share Posted December 3, 2007 Wingpete - 2007-12-03 5:28 PM It has come up in several threads. I am one of the afflicted, living in London, keeping van in Kent. Every time I need to bring it home to load, it will cost £100 to park on my drive. No concessions on offer from TFL. But if you 'van is petrol, no charge. Seems even fire engines and dustcarts wil have to comply. Ambiguity in the ap;lication for Non GB regd vahicles. If they stay here they pay, if passing through looks like exempt. Get a imported van and keep quiet ! :-> Go to their website tfl.gov.uk/lezlondon Have to convert to petrol or gas conversion I suppose.Been on the website,frightening.Visited Crystal Palace last weekj,Great site,it will hit them. Thanks for input. Mick H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twooks Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 like the way the M25 just sneaks in at the NE corner, used to live around there! oh well, another good reason to avoid that place B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick H. Posted December 3, 2007 Author Share Posted December 3, 2007 twooks - 2007-12-03 8:37 PM like the way the M25 just sneaks in at the NE corner, used to live around there! oh well, another good reason to avoid that place B-) You don't have to pay if you are on the M 25 even if it enters the zone Mick H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twooks Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Mick H. - 2007-12-03 8:42 PM twooks - 2007-12-03 8:37 PM like the way the M25 just sneaks in at the NE corner, used to live around there! oh well, another good reason to avoid that place B-) You don't have to pay if you are on the M 25 even if it enters the zone Mick H. even if you're parked up for several hours :-> :-> :-> :-> B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I can drive 'old smokey' into LEZ as it's petrol, also any deisel 4x4 that is 'car' based i.e. disco, presumably they don't produce any particulates *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Had a letter from them concerning my lorry £200 per day charge plus £1000 fine if it doesn't comply to Euro 2 regulations (for emissions). This is going to put so many companies out of business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 It's gonna make breathing in London cleaner too. If it ain't hurting, it ain't working I'm afraid. Welcome to beginning to reap what we as a society have been sowing for the past century or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 BGD - 2007-12-03 10:58 PM It's gonna make breathing in London cleaner too. . What makes London so special ? Do they think or believe that no-one else has a problem. It's so easy to make statements like that when it doesn't affect you. Would you be so flippant if someone made a £100 or £200 daily charge on you for driving to your performance in a club, or as you lived in a certain area, to get to work, or drive to hospital,school, the shops .How long do you think you could survive. Remember, it's a daily charge. Food prices are going to increase because of the increased costs of getting it to shops, along with virtually everything else. Make no mistakes, it's nothing to do with protecting the climate, it's about greed and making yet more money from motorists. Just because you don't live in the LEZ (or even the country, if applicable) dont get complacent, because if it's allowed to work within the M25, then other councils are going to try the same. It will be happening where you live before very long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Syd Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 twooks - 2007-12-03 9:07 PM You don't have to pay if you are on the M 25 even if it enters the zone Mick H. even if you're parked up for several hours :-> :-> :-> :-> B-) Just a question I go via the M25 several times a year and so far have never found it to live up to it's "Britains Biggest Car Park" name. Tell me do you still get huge traffic jams on it or are they things of the past Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Syd: M25 is o.k. as long as you don't want to travel in the morning or late afternoon , the rest of the day can be o.k. as long as no-one sneezes. I believe the worst section is to the north west of London, round to Heathrow ,which fortunately, I don't use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick H. Posted December 4, 2007 Author Share Posted December 4, 2007 donna miller - 2007-12-04 8:16 AM BGD - 2007-12-03 10:58 PM It's gonna make breathing in London cleaner too. . What makes London so special ? Do they think or believe that no-one else has a problem. It's so easy to make statements like that when it doesn't affect you. Would you be so flippant if someone made a £100 or £200 daily charge on you for driving to your performance in a club, or as you lived in a certain area, to get to work, or drive to hospital,school, the shops .How long do you think you could survive. Remember, it's a daily charge. Food prices are going to increase because of the increased costs of getting it to shops, along with virtually everything else. Make no mistakes, it's nothing to do with protecting the climate, it's about greed and making yet more money from motorists. Just because you don't live in the LEZ (or even the country, if applicable) dont get complacent, because if it's allowed to work within the M25, then other councils are going to try the same. It will be happening where you live before very long. I think it's time that we copied the French on this one.If they dont like a government decision they totally black it and make it unworkable.Lorries refuse to deliver within the area, coaches refuse to do trips in the area, campervans dont visit the area,it wouldn't take long,but I'm afraid the british havn't the right temprement for a revolution,the lorry drivers tried a few years ago and didn't get the right support,but I understand there was a bit of heavy mob encouragement to get them back. Anyway I shant be driving to London after July. Mick H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick H. Posted December 4, 2007 Author Share Posted December 4, 2007 malc d - 2007-12-04 11:02 AM Syd: M25 is o.k. as long as you don't want to travel in the morning or late afternoon , the rest of the day can be o.k. as long as no-one sneezes. I believe the worst section is to the north west of London, round to Heathrow ,which fortunately, I don't use. I dont use the M25 that much living in Salisbury but whenever I have it hasn't been that bad, better than driving through town thats for sure. Mick H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 The M25 is fine except for road works and accidents which, due to the high traffic flow, quickly cause long tail backs - specially at peak times. At peak times just the sheer volume of traffic can cause the 'ripple' effect (often caused by nothing more sinister than two trucks side by side for a long period) which can make you sort of bounce from ripple to ripple with alternate slow and relatively quick stretches. It's frustrating but you soon learn that any progress on the M25 is something to be grateful for because if it does grind to a halt you could be sat in very slow moving congestion for a long time. Either way it is still probably better than the alternatives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 donna miller - 2007-12-04 8:16 AM BGD - 2007-12-03 10:58 PM It's gonna make breathing in London cleaner too. . What makes London so special ? Do they think or believe that no-one else has a problem. It's so easy to make statements like that when it doesn't affect you. Would you be so flippant if someone made a £100 or £200 daily charge on you for driving to your performance in a club, or as you lived in a certain area, to get to work, or drive to hospital,school, the shops .How long do you think you could survive. Remember, it's a daily charge. Food prices are going to increase because of the increased costs of getting it to shops, along with virtually everything else. Make no mistakes, it's nothing to do with protecting the climate, it's about greed and making yet more money from motorists. Just because you don't live in the LEZ (or even the country, if applicable) dont get complacent, because if it's allowed to work within the M25, then other councils are going to try the same. It will be happening where you live before very long. With great respect Donna, if you think about it, it does affect me. And every human being on this planet, and all other living things on this planet. And until we all start to finally realise that, and get out of our personal greed and "NIMBYism", the remains of this planet that we leave for future generations is gonna be a disaster. Voluntarism plainly doesn't work in the face of such widely spread personal human greed me-now behaviours within the rich, industrialised West. So the only other way to change personal behaviours within a democratic system is via the use of taxation - to make it less attractive for people to continue to adapt beahaviour "A", and to encourage them to move more often to behaviour "B". Like I said before, really waking people up to the environmental catastrophe they are collectively causing; and getting them to change their behaviours is in my view critical. So, it's gotta hurt before it starts to work. And initiatives like LEZ in London are certain to be (if you'll excuse the pun) just the tip of the iceberg. We've all (including me) had it too good for too long, and now it's really got to be change time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parke Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Global warming or not does not give any politican the right to 'rip off the tax payer' in the name of something which has still, I suggest, not been proved to be 'beyond reasonable doubt'. All the huffing and puffing by the Greens and the Brown will not change a blooming thing unless the Indians, Chinese and North Americans seriously take emissions on board. (Which, with, especially the first two, a growing production base, they are not going to 'shoot themselves in the foot' are they?). Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 I'm sorry but how does charging a hard working company, £1000 per week,per vehicle to deliver goods to the inner/outer London area. Do anything for the enviroment. Those deliveries still have to be made, emissions are still made, but the councils reap the pickings. Care for the enviroment, yeah right. Education may be the answer, but you dont educate people by taxing them out of existence. BGD.You appear to show concern about the planet, do I take it you are willing to show your support by scrapping your pride and joy,buying a tent and going everywhere by pushbike. Or are you happy to just to let others pay the price for you and your freedom. I certainly dont want to argue or fall out with you, but as I said, It's very easy to make the comments you have, when you live 100s of miles away. Mike P. Well said, the British are a nation of whingers, yet are unprepared to commit to protest against the very things they complain about. In 1990 I sat for nearly 2 weeks on the approach roads to the Mont Blanc tunnel when the Italians and French went on strike and blockaded the roads and border crossings. Then a couple of years ago, I sat on the Severn bridge in the fuel protests for 2-3 hours before the police came along and threatened to arrest all the drivers, what happened, they all started up their engines and went home. What many people don't realise is that those fuel protests were so close to shutting down the largest fuel depots in south Wales. If only they had held out a bit longer, but it would seem 99% of people are only bothered about protecting themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Here's a piece from the Telegraph which I found thought-provoking. Sorry it's quite a long article, but I didn't want to snip out only parts of it: "Among other duties, Gavron leads the task of mitigating London's impact on climate change, no mean feat. When the new Greater London Authority (GLA) came into being, its vision was to develop London as an exemplary sustainable world city, and that goal underpins and interconnects all the strategies that are looking ahead to 2025. The new transport plan to be enacted early next year is a key aspect of that, because surface transport accounts for slightly more than 20 per cent of the city's pollution. The challenge for London was how to accommodate a rapidly growing population, as Gavron explained when I met her last week. "We could have done what they did after the war, which was to export people and jobs into the shires. That would not have been sustainable," she said. But what about transport? "We had to hugely increase the public transport network. There had been under-investment throughout, but particularly in transport. Our long-term objective is to give people choice of how, where and whether they travel; to make public transport acceptable, to reduce the need to travel by car and to offer carbon-efficient alternatives." The first act was to invest in the quantity, quality and reliability of buses, and the enforcement of bus lanes. That promised the quickest win, and bus use has gone up by 40 per cent as a result. The longer-term second phase is a rail renaissance, with Crossrail and increased Tube train frequency; far more people are using them already. Cashless travel, with Oyster cards, speeds the movement of people and reduces costs. The aim is also to increase cycling and walking, with transport and air quality benefits. So what about road travel and the impact of congestion charging? "That has worked better than we expected; traffic is 21 per cent down, and cars are down by a third; that is 70,000 fewer cars a day. What is still too variable is the congestion level; that depends on roadworks and a number of other factors," said Gavron. The result has been the fastest shift out of the car in any urban area. Bigger shifts have taken place elsewhere, but over a longer time. As for the greening of London, the GLA had to "be the change" and put its own house in order first. It started with its vehicle fleet, trialling three hydrogen-powered buses, with more to come; it is also procuring hundreds of hybrid diesel-electric buses and eco-efficient cars, encouraging fleet managers and businesses to do the same with awards and promotions. It hopes thereby to increase the market for such vehicles and so reduce their price and expand their use. Other measures have been discussed such as pay-per-mile road pricing (currently no plans) and extending the congestion zone (ruled out). The plan is for car use in the zone to be free for those emitting less than 120 grams of CO2 per kilometre, with a daily charge of £8 for cars emitting 120-225g/km and £25 for those emitting more. Will even that be enough to get the super-rich out of their gas-guzzlers and on to buses or bicycles? I doubt it. Many motorists complain about both the congestion charge and congestion. By their actions, they are demonstrating that the charge is not high enough. Are they part of the problem or part of the solution? They could "be the change" too. They could also consider saving more than money, such as our children's health. Recent research by the University of California showed that children living in cities risk long-term lung damage and that city pollution is a major cause of asthma. London's aim is to improve air quality as well as mitigating congestion and climate change. Greater London will become a Low Emission Zone next year for coaches, buses and lorries, and later for larger vans, in order to reduce diesel particulates. Ken Livingstone and Nicky Gavron hosted the first C20 summit in 2005 (the second took place in New York least year). C20 signifies the gathering of representatives of 20 key cities to discuss and work together on environmental and development initiatives. Much may be learned from smaller cities (such as Trondheim in Norway, which pioneered congestion charging) because they can change faster than big ones. The Large Cities Climate Leadership Group was formed and subsequently enlarged to C40, to stimulate collaboration and innovation, to form procurement alliances and to act as champions for other cities including those in emerging economies; the Clinton Climate Initiative is partnering with C40 as its service organisation. The next C40 meeting, the first of a series of mini-summits, takes place in London next week. It is a workshop on congestion and transport, bringing together 120 transport officials from 35 cities to share their experience. "Be the change that you wish to see in the world," was what Gandhi called for, and what we all find so hard to manifest, especially dedicated motorists, when it comes to the environment. To that end, your comments on the intent and execution of the London plan are welcome, provided they are made with similar broad environmental and social objectives. Those who only want to assert their own freedom to pollute and congest as they please are in a shrinking minority and are increasingly boring. " It clearly ain't going to go away so, frankly, in commercial terms it rather seems that it's now change-behaviour time, or continue to refuse to change, and instead prepare to die a slow death as customers increasingly switch to other distributors who have changed, and thus whose costs and therefore charges are lower........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick H. Posted December 4, 2007 Author Share Posted December 4, 2007 BGD - 2007-12-04 2:17 PM donna miller - 2007-12-04 8:16 AM BGD - 2007-12-03 10:58 PM It's gonna make breathing in London cleaner too. . What makes London so special ? Do they think or believe that no-one else has a problem. It's so easy to make statements like that when it doesn't affect you. Would you be so flippant if someone made a £100 or £200 daily charge on you for driving to your performance in a club, or as you lived in a certain area, to get to work, or drive to hospital,school, the shops .How long do you think you could survive. Remember, it's a daily charge. Food prices are going to increase because of the increased costs of getting it to shops, along with virtually everything else. Make no mistakes, it's nothing to do with protecting the climate, it's about greed and making yet more money from motorists. Just because you don't live in the LEZ (or even the country, if applicable) dont get complacent, because if it's allowed to work within the M25, then other councils are going to try the same. It will be happening where you live before very long. With great respect Donna, if you think about it, it does affect me. And every human being on this planet, and all other living things on this planet. And until we all start to finally realise that, and get out of our personal greed and "NIMBYism", the remains of this planet that we leave for future generations is gonna be a disaster. Voluntarism plainly doesn't work in the face of such widely spread personal human greed me-now behaviours within the rich, industrialised West. So the only other way to change personal behaviours within a democratic system is via the use of taxation - to make it less attractive for people to continue to adapt beahaviour "A", and to encourage them to move more often to behaviour "B". Like I said before, really waking people up to the environmental catastrophe they are collectively causing; and getting them to change their behaviours is in my view critical. So, it's gotta hurt before it starts to work. And initiatives like LEZ in London are certain to be (if you'll excuse the pun) just the tip of the iceberg. We've all (including me) had it too good for too long, and now it's really got to be change time. So did you go out and enjoy bonfire night that went on for about six weeks. The polution that ws caused by that little event must be huge,But that was celebrating the demise of an anti government person. IT AINT JUST VEHICLES, WAKE UP. Mick H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 A feature on the subject from MMM: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/channel/articleitem.asp?c=1&article=157 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 BGD - 2007-12-04 2:17 PM donna miller - 2007-12-04 8:16 AM BGD - 2007-12-03 10:58 PM It's gonna make breathing in London cleaner too. . What makes London so special ? Do they think or believe that no-one else has a problem. It's so easy to make statements like that when it doesn't affect you. Would you be so flippant if someone made a £100 or £200 daily charge on you for driving to your performance in a club, or as you lived in a certain area, to get to work, or drive to hospital,school, the shops .How long do you think you could survive. Remember, it's a daily charge. Food prices are going to increase because of the increased costs of getting it to shops, along with virtually everything else. Make no mistakes, it's nothing to do with protecting the climate, it's about greed and making yet more money from motorists. Just because you don't live in the LEZ (or even the country, if applicable) dont get complacent, because if it's allowed to work within the M25, then other councils are going to try the same. It will be happening where you live before very long. With great respect Donna, if you think about it, it does affect me. And every human being on this planet, and all other living things on this planet. And until we all start to finally realise that, and get out of our personal greed and "NIMBYism", the remains of this planet that we leave for future generations is gonna be a disaster. Voluntarism plainly doesn't work in the face of such widely spread personal human greed me-now behaviours within the rich, industrialised West. So the only other way to change personal behaviours within a democratic system is via the use of taxation - to make it less attractive for people to continue to adapt beahaviour "A", and to encourage them to move more often to behaviour "B". Like I said before, really waking people up to the environmental catastrophe they are collectively causing; and getting them to change their behaviours is in my view critical. So, it's gotta hurt before it starts to work. And initiatives like LEZ in London are certain to be (if you'll excuse the pun) just the tip of the iceberg. We've all (including me) had it too good for too long, and now it's really got to be change time. I accept the need to reduce pollution but the trouble with using taxation is that not all people are affected equally. The London congestion charge and these latest LEZ plans will not affect the better off. They are not banning any vehicles,so does that mean it's o.k. to pollute if you can afford it ? (I'm sure they could make quite a difference in London just by turning off some of the lights). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 I know where I would like to put my size 15 carbon footprint!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Wow Clive ... were you a Yeti in a former life, that's one heck of a shoe size! 8-) I wonder what would happen if there was an accident on the M25 and you had to be diverted off it and into the exclusion zone ... would you be charged I wonder???? *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 yes you would be charged even if ordered off by the police...this lez is just a con at £100 per day if livingstone really wanted to he could charge the same as germany about 10e per day....as an ex haulage contractor who still keeps in touch i can tell you that several hauliers are moving their older non compliant vehicles up north so theres no overall gain on the greenhouse front it has just moved so i effects everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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