spirou Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 As your daily politics descend to new lows, I'm ever more puzzled what the big deal is with the backstop? From what I can gather that's the only reason the deal hasn't been approved and all this nonsense with extensions started. Oddly enough I'd say a no deal exit would be preferable to all this nonsense, protests and constitutional crisis you've got going on. Anyway, I understand the reasoning of the open irish border and the good friday agreement and all that. But what I can't understand is why some believe a regular border, just like any other around the world, would suddenly spark a new violent revolution? Surely the irish on both sides have grown up over the past 30 years or so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 You're confusing Remoaners with adults :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted September 8, 2019 Author Share Posted September 8, 2019 I wouldn't be so proud of myself as you're all about the same as 5 year olds at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 I have discussed this with many Irish friends and all of them agree that a hard border will lead to a flash point for terrorists and ultimately the troubles will all kick off again not to mention the massive disruption to trade and the Irish economy on both sides of the border. The peace has been fragile and pockets of violence still continue but it has been "a peace". A no deal Brexit now severely threatens that. Of course the Brexiteers keep telling us a solution is easy and they can quickly solve it so you have to turn the question on its head "so why the fuss about HAVING the backstop"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 spirou - 2019-09-08 12:23 PM As your daily politics descend to new lows, I'm ever more puzzled what the big deal is with the backstop? From what I can gather that's the only reason the deal hasn't been approved and all this nonsense with extensions started. Oddly enough I'd say a no deal exit would be preferable to all this nonsense, protests and constitutional crisis you've got going on. Anyway, I understand the reasoning of the open irish border and the good friday agreement and all that. But what I can't understand is why some believe a regular border, just like any other around the world, would suddenly spark a new violent revolution? Surely the irish on both sides have grown up over the past 30 years or so? If you have the time and the inclination, have a look at the border between the Irish republic and Northern Ireland on Google Earth. It is only about 310 miles long, and has in the region of 260 road crossings. The actual number has not been defined. It is an ancient feudal border line that was never intended to be, and never has been, an international frontier. It wanders thither and yon, down the middle of roads, across fields, through villages, down rivers, across loughs, through the odd house, between a farm and its yard and barns etc. etc. Hardening it would require extensive negotiation between the UK and Ireland just to create a logical line that could be fenced. Some new roads would have to be built, as the same road at present crosses the border several times in the space of a few miles. The danger, as illustrated by the recent actions of the "Real IRA", would lie in breaking the undertaking in the Belfast Agreement, that no border installations will be constructed between NI and Ireland. The IRA haven't gone away at all, they are still around, and are still lethal. You are probably more familiar with the land frontiers between the EU with those bordering non-EU states to the east than any of us on here, so you will understand that trying to install those kinds of border controls on that border, while remaining within the provisions of the Belfast Agreement undertaking, is pretty much impossible. That is the real sticking point. The dual demands of the Belfast Agreement, and the EU for its external borders, cannot be reconciled. The problem with the border relationship between UK and ROI is that when you read the agreements on which it is based, they contain mostly "fudge" - intended to allow both sides to claim victory to the satisfaction of their intended audiences. EU external borders just do not fall into that category. They do not accommodate fudge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-08 1:36 PM "so why the fuss about HAVING the backstop"? Because it's not unilateral ;-) ....... It's just an excuse to keep us stitched up by the EU without an escape route *-) ......... Which is why it appeals to you surrender Monkeys and the EU :-| ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-08 7:15 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-08 1:36 PM "so why the fuss about HAVING the backstop"? Because it's not unilateral ;-) ....... It's just an excuse to keep us stitched up by the EU without an escape route *-) ......... Which is why it appeals to you surrender Monkeys and the EU :-| ........ But you do have an escape route. Boris and many other Brexiteers and the likes of FunnyJohn on here I think have said that a solution is very simple and can be done with technology so there you go then. Accept the backstop, implement your solution, no more backstop. Whats the problem? Unless of course they were all making it up. Surely not though eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 I believe NI voted remain in Eu, so treat it as a separate state,within in the Eu but part of uk,then the border will be the coast of uk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeco Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Brian, If the border between the two Irelands is that difficult why not use the Irish Sea as a border. Issue ID card to the NI residents and insist on passports for the Republic residents when visiting England, Scotland & Wales. Free movement for the Irish both sides of the Nth/Sth border. cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Geeco - 2019-09-09 8:29 AM Brian, If the border between the two Irelands is that difficult why not use the Irish Sea as a border. Issue ID card to the NI residents and insist on passports for the Republic residents when visiting England, Scotland & Wales. Free movement for the Irish both sides of the Nth/Sth border. cheers, You appear to have little understanding of Irish politics? What you are proposing there is a united Ireland and whilst it would please me and a lot of Republicans it would antagonize the unionists probably to the point of extreme violence. It would also be a breach of a international treaty - the Good Friday Agreement, so the unionists would have a right to object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-09-09 9:12 AM Geeco - 2019-09-09 8:29 AM Brian, If the border between the two Irelands is that difficult why not use the Irish Sea as a border. Issue ID card to the NI residents and insist on passports for the Republic residents when visiting England, Scotland & Wales. Free movement for the Irish both sides of the Nth/Sth border. cheers, You appear to have little understanding of Irish politics? What you are proposing there is a united Ireland and whilst it would please me and a lot of Republicans it would antagonize the unionists probably to the point of extreme violence. It would also be a breach of a international treaty - the Good Friday Agreement, so the unionists would have a right to object. So you admit that a border instigated by the EU would result in problems for Dublin and Brussels......... not Britain? ;-) ......... Kinda cancelled out Brians & Barry's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-08 10:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-08 7:15 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-08 1:36 PM "so why the fuss about HAVING the backstop"? Because it's not unilateral ;-) ....... It's just an excuse to keep us stitched up by the EU without an escape route *-) ......... Which is why it appeals to you surrender Monkeys and the EU :-| ........ But you do have an escape route. Boris and many other Brexiteers and the likes of FunnyJohn on here I think have said that a solution is very simple and can be done with technology so there you go then. Accept the backstop, implement your solution, no more backstop. Whats the problem? Unless of course they were all making it up. Surely not though eh? "Whats the problem?" We don't trust EU >:-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-09 10:07 AM Barryd999 - 2019-09-08 10:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-08 7:15 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-08 1:36 PM "so why the fuss about HAVING the backstop"? Because it's not unilateral ;-) ....... It's just an excuse to keep us stitched up by the EU without an escape route *-) ......... Which is why it appeals to you surrender Monkeys and the EU :-| ........ But you do have an escape route. Boris and many other Brexiteers and the likes of FunnyJohn on here I think have said that a solution is very simple and can be done with technology so there you go then. Accept the backstop, implement your solution, no more backstop. Whats the problem? Unless of course they were all making it up. Surely not though eh? "Whats the problem?" We don't trust EU >:-) .......... On what grounds? Its the UK that is the untrustworthy partner in all of this. The EU have clearly stated and its also documented in the WA that once a solution to the Irish Border is found then the backstop is removed. Simple as that. I presume the EU will be delighted when that happens but the real truth is that there isnt a magic unicorn solution to the border issue is there? It was yet another Brexiteer whopper of a lie. There is and has always only been one proper solution to avoid a hard border and that is membership of both the customs union and single market or remaining in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-09 10:12 AM pelmetman - 2019-09-09 10:07 AM Barryd999 - 2019-09-08 10:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-08 7:15 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-08 1:36 PM "so why the fuss about HAVING the backstop"? Because it's not unilateral ;-) ....... It's just an excuse to keep us stitched up by the EU without an escape route *-) ......... Which is why it appeals to you surrender Monkeys and the EU :-| ........ But you do have an escape route. Boris and many other Brexiteers and the likes of FunnyJohn on here I think have said that a solution is very simple and can be done with technology so there you go then. Accept the backstop, implement your solution, no more backstop. Whats the problem? Unless of course they were all making it up. Surely not though eh? "Whats the problem?" We don't trust EU >:-) .......... On what grounds? Its the UK that is the untrustworthy partner in all of this. The EU have clearly stated and its also documented in the WA that once a solution to the Irish Border is found then the backstop is removed. Simple as that. I presume the EU will be delighted when that happens but the real truth is that there isnt a magic unicorn solution to the border issue is there? It was yet another Brexiteer whopper of a lie. There is and has always only been one proper solution to avoid a hard border and that is membership of both the customs union and single market or remaining in the EU. "After much negotiation, and following a change in the French Presidency, Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom eventually joined the European Communities on 1 January 1973. Denmark and Ireland were so economically linked to the UK, that they considered it necessary to join the EEC if the UK did." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_and_the_European_Union Looks like they'd be better of joining the new World Kingdom Union :D ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-09 10:06 AM Fast Pat - 2019-09-09 9:12 AM Geeco - 2019-09-09 8:29 AM Brian, If the border between the two Irelands is that difficult why not use the Irish Sea as a border. Issue ID card to the NI residents and insist on passports for the Republic residents when visiting England, Scotland & Wales. Free movement for the Irish both sides of the Nth/Sth border. cheers, You appear to have little understanding of Irish politics? What you are proposing there is a united Ireland and whilst it would please me and a lot of Republicans it would antagonize the unionists probably to the point of extreme violence. It would also be a breach of a international treaty - the Good Friday Agreement, so the unionists would have a right to object. So you admit that a border instigated by the EU would result in problems for Dublin and Brussels......... not Britain? ;-) ......... Kinda cancelled out Brians & Barry's Only in Dave land! :-D In the real world, it is more likely to prove our reservations very well founded. The problem with this child-like solution is that adults will be prone to ask why the barriers have been erected, to which the inescapable reply must be, "because Britain decided to leave the EU - but forgot all about the Irish dimension in doing so". There is no way the UK could shrug off culpability in the eyes of the IRA. The thing you seem unwilling to understand is that the Irish Republicans are every bit as blind to reason, single minded, and stubborn, as you, but are very quickly provoked to murder and violence as their way of registering their disagreements. The only realistic solution is the re-unification of Ireland, which would require the full acquiescence and co-operation of your DUP mates (and other far less democratic Orange groups), who are sworn to resist the idea. If that is not achieved, the likely outcome would be that the UDA etc would kick off in the opposite direction. No straight banana!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-09 1:04 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-09 10:06 AM Fast Pat - 2019-09-09 9:12 AM Geeco - 2019-09-09 8:29 AM Brian, If the border between the two Irelands is that difficult why not use the Irish Sea as a border. Issue ID card to the NI residents and insist on passports for the Republic residents when visiting England, Scotland & Wales. Free movement for the Irish both sides of the Nth/Sth border. cheers, You appear to have little understanding of Irish politics? What you are proposing there is a united Ireland and whilst it would please me and a lot of Republicans it would antagonize the unionists probably to the point of extreme violence. It would also be a breach of a international treaty - the Good Friday Agreement, so the unionists would have a right to object. So you admit that a border instigated by the EU would result in problems for Dublin and Brussels......... not Britain? ;-) ......... Kinda cancelled out Brians & Barry's Only in Dave land! :-D In the real world, it is more likely to prove our reservations very well founded. The problem with this child-like solution is that adults will be prone to ask why the barriers have been erected, to which the inescapable reply must be, "because Britain decided to leave the EU - but forgot all about the Irish dimension in doing so". There is no way the UK could shrug off culpability in the eyes of the IRA. The thing you seem unwilling to understand is that the Irish Republicans are every bit as blind to reason, single minded, and stubborn, as you, but are very quickly provoked to murder and violence as their way of registering their disagreements. The only realistic solution is the re-unification of Ireland, which would require the full acquiescence and co-operation of your DUP mates (and other far less democratic Orange groups), who are sworn to resist the idea. If that is not achieved, the likely outcome would be that the UDA etc would kick off in the opposite direction. No straight banana!! Seeing as the IRA doesn't appear to be threatening a resumption of hostilities over Brexit :-| ........ Indeed it would actually appear to help their cause ;-) .......... I would deffo say you banana is bent :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-09 1:16 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-09 1:04 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-09 10:06 AM Fast Pat - 2019-09-09 9:12 AM Geeco - 2019-09-09 8:29 AM Brian, If the border between the two Irelands is that difficult why not use the Irish Sea as a border. Issue ID card to the NI residents and insist on passports for the Republic residents when visiting England, Scotland & Wales. Free movement for the Irish both sides of the Nth/Sth border. cheers, You appear to have little understanding of Irish politics? What you are proposing there is a united Ireland and whilst it would please me and a lot of Republicans it would antagonize the unionists probably to the point of extreme violence. It would also be a breach of a international treaty - the Good Friday Agreement, so the unionists would have a right to object. So you admit that a border instigated by the EU would result in problems for Dublin and Brussels......... not Britain? ;-) ......... Kinda cancelled out Brians & Barry's Only in Dave land! :-D In the real world, it is more likely to prove our reservations very well founded. The problem with this child-like solution is that adults will be prone to ask why the barriers have been erected, to which the inescapable reply must be, "because Britain decided to leave the EU - but forgot all about the Irish dimension in doing so". There is no way the UK could shrug off culpability in the eyes of the IRA. The thing you seem unwilling to understand is that the Irish Republicans are every bit as blind to reason, single minded, and stubborn, as you, but are very quickly provoked to murder and violence as their way of registering their disagreements. The only realistic solution is the re-unification of Ireland, which would require the full acquiescence and co-operation of your DUP mates (and other far less democratic Orange groups), who are sworn to resist the idea. If that is not achieved, the likely outcome would be that the UDA etc would kick off in the opposite direction. No straight banana!! Seeing as the IRA doesn't appear to be threatening a resumption of hostilities over Brexit :-| ........ Indeed it would actually appear to help their cause ;-) .......... I would deffo say you banana is bent :D ........ No but the UDA etc would, which in turn would lead to tit for tat violence from both sides and don't forget Doris has already threatened the return of direct rule. You are igniting a powder keg with no idea as to how and when it is going to explode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrad Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 All these posts show the problem. There are no answers. The two sides in NI have not matured socially since the Troubles ended in 1998. There are still walls dividing the two communities in Belfast, (London)Derry and elsewhere, guarded by police. Children still go to Nationalist or Unionist schools and are brought up to regard eachother as the enemy. What mystifies me is: why the border between NI and Eire was never mentioned as a potential source of contention during the referendum campaign by either side. If it was, it may just have swung the result so we were not in the mire we are in now, bogged down by an unsolvable problem; how to have two countries, one in the EU, one not, with no border. There will be one between UK and all other EU countries, but no-one has come up with a solution to the conundrum of no border but different countries! There have been vague suggestions of technology, but none is said to exist, and if it did, certainly won't be in place in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrad Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 All these posts show the problem. There are no answers. The two sides in NI have not matured socially since the Troubles ended in 1998. There are still walls dividing the two communities in Belfast, (London)Derry and elsewhere, guarded by police. Children still go to Nationalist or Unionist schools and are brought up to regard eachother as the enemy. What mystifies me is: why the border between NI and Eire was never mentioned as a potential source of contention during the referendum campaign by either side. If it was, it may just have swung the result so we were not in the mire we are in now, bogged down by an unsolvable problem; how to have two countries, one in the EU, one not, with no border. There will be one between UK and all other EU countries, but no-one has come up with a solution to the conundrum of no border but different countries! There have been vague suggestions of technology, but none is said to exist, and if it did, certainly won't be in place in time. Oops, seem to have posted this twice! How clever is that?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Conrad - 2019-09-09 8:14 PM All these posts show the problem. There are no answers. The two sides in NI have not matured socially since the Troubles ended in 1998. There are still walls dividing the two communities in Belfast, (London)Derry and elsewhere, guarded by police. Children still go to Nationalist or Unionist schools and are brought up to regard eachother as the enemy. What mystifies me is: why the border between NI and Eire was never mentioned as a potential source of contention during the referendum campaign by either side. If it was, it may just have swung the result so we were not in the mire we are in now, bogged down by an unsolvable problem; how to have two countries, one in the EU, one not, with no border. There will be one between UK and all other EU countries, but no-one has come up with a solution to the conundrum of no border but different countries! There have been vague suggestions of technology, but none is said to exist, and if it did, certainly won't be in place in time. Oops, seem to have posted this twice! How clever is that?! As usual, 60 something British Citizens are held hostage by a few hundred religious bigots. I have a suggestion that might break the deadlock. lease NI to the Russians as a Tank training ground. On the understanding that when the two sides can get along, we can take it back (or give it to the South if it is mangled too badly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Conrad, the border issue was raised during the campaign but nobody was listening. It was just batted away by the Brexit leaders as nothing to worry about and it would all be sorted out (presumably by someone else and some magic Unicorns). Those of us that tried to point it out were just accused of stirring up more project fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted September 10, 2019 Author Share Posted September 10, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-08 8:07 PM If you have the time and the inclination, have a look at the border between the Irish republic and Northern Ireland on Google Earth. It is only about 310 miles long, and has in the region of 260 road crossings. The actual number has not been defined. It is an ancient feudal border line that was never intended to be, and never has been, an international frontier. It wanders thither and yon, down the middle of roads, across fields, through villages, down rivers, across loughs, through the odd house, between a farm and its yard and barns etc. etc. Hardening it would require extensive negotiation between the UK and Ireland just to create a logical line that could be fenced. Some new roads would have to be built, as the same road at present crosses the border several times in the space of a few miles. The danger, as illustrated by the recent actions of the "Real IRA", would lie in breaking the undertaking in the Belfast Agreement, that no border installations will be constructed between NI and Ireland. The IRA haven't gone away at all, they are still around, and are still lethal. You are probably more familiar with the land frontiers between the EU with those bordering non-EU states to the east than any of us on here, so you will understand that trying to install those kinds of border controls on that border, while remaining within the provisions of the Belfast Agreement undertaking, is pretty much impossible. That is the real sticking point. The dual demands of the Belfast Agreement, and the EU for its external borders, cannot be reconciled. The problem with the border relationship between UK and ROI is that when you read the agreements on which it is based, they contain mostly "fudge" - intended to allow both sides to claim victory to the satisfaction of their intended audiences. EU external borders just do not fall into that category. They do not accommodate fudge! Land swap never crossed anyone's mind? I mean, it's not an easy solution as evidenced by our deal with Croatia (and their many border problems with all other neighbors) but short of unified Ireland that's the logical way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 spirou - 2019-09-10 7:37 AM Land swap never crossed anyone's mind? I mean, it's not an easy solution as evidenced by our deal with Croatia (and their many border problems with all other neighbors) but short of unified Ireland that's the logical way out. The Irish Government is just like Corbyn ;-) .......... They have both spent years demanding something :D ...... Yet they'd both sh*t themselves if it actually happened >:-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-09-09 1:34 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-09 1:16 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-09 1:04 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-09 10:06 AM Fast Pat - 2019-09-09 9:12 AM Geeco - 2019-09-09 8:29 AM Brian, If the border between the two Irelands is that difficult why not use the Irish Sea as a border. Issue ID card to the NI residents and insist on passports for the Republic residents when visiting England, Scotland & Wales. Free movement for the Irish both sides of the Nth/Sth border. cheers, You appear to have little understanding of Irish politics? What you are proposing there is a united Ireland and whilst it would please me and a lot of Republicans it would antagonize the unionists probably to the point of extreme violence. It would also be a breach of a international treaty - the Good Friday Agreement, so the unionists would have a right to object. So you admit that a border instigated by the EU would result in problems for Dublin and Brussels......... not Britain? ;-) ......... Kinda cancelled out Brians & Barry's Only in Dave land! :-D In the real world, it is more likely to prove our reservations very well founded. The problem with this child-like solution is that adults will be prone to ask why the barriers have been erected, to which the inescapable reply must be, "because Britain decided to leave the EU - but forgot all about the Irish dimension in doing so". There is no way the UK could shrug off culpability in the eyes of the IRA. The thing you seem unwilling to understand is that the Irish Republicans are every bit as blind to reason, single minded, and stubborn, as you, but are very quickly provoked to murder and violence as their way of registering their disagreements. The only realistic solution is the re-unification of Ireland, which would require the full acquiescence and co-operation of your DUP mates (and other far less democratic Orange groups), who are sworn to resist the idea. If that is not achieved, the likely outcome would be that the UDA etc would kick off in the opposite direction. No straight banana!! Seeing as the IRA doesn't appear to be threatening a resumption of hostilities over Brexit :-| ........ Indeed it would actually appear to help their cause ;-) .......... I would deffo say you banana is bent :D ........ No but the UDA etc would, which in turn would lead to tit for tat violence from both sides and don't forget Doris has already threatened the return of direct rule. You are igniting a powder keg with no idea as to how and when it is going to explode. The UDA might.......and the IRA might respond :-| ........... But it wont be OUR problem ;-) ......... Because what's the point of planting bombs in a country that no longer has any say? *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 The Backstop just became the Frontstop. "Phil Hogan’s appointment as EU Trade Commissioner is a very positive development for Ireland. We sought a major economic brief in the new European Commission, and I am very satisfied that we have secured it. He will work for Europe as a whole, but it's a definite advantage to have an Irish person in charge of this crucial brief over the next 5 years. He will take the lead on the EU’s post-Brexit trade deal with the UK, as well as Mercosur & trading relations with India, US & China. Phil did an excellent job in the Agriculture & Rural Development brief. He is widely respected in Brussels & across the EU as a skilled negotiator and someone who builds alliances. He has proven to be vociferous on Brexit, and I am sure that this will continue in his new role." Leo Varadkar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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