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Advice request - Water Leaks
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usergdf
Posted: 23 August 2011 3:55 PM
Subject: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
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Posts: 117
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Location: North East England, Rapido V68


We have a 6month old Autocruise Accent which has now leaked 3 times from the connection between the hot water feed and the tap in the kitchen unit. Twice , so badly, that this has flooded the floor of the van. On each occasion there has been a problem, and currently, the hot water feed to the tap is via a piece of plastic pipe pushed onto the plastic tail? of the tap and fastened with a jubilee clip. The problem is thought to be caused by a vibration along the water pipe when the pump is operating combined with expansion of the pipe from the hot water in it causing the pipe to be pushed off. Tightening the jubilee clip causes the plastic tail to split.

Autocruise use this jubilee clip method and my dealer says it is the best but a caravan repair engineer who came to fix the problem says that the push fit connectors are best.

I have a view as to which I think is best but I'd appreciate any thoughts people have.

Thanks

Dave
userBarney123
Posted: 23 August 2011 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
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Location: Essex,Hymer 660SL


Hi, you say you have a "6 month old" motorhome which has had 3 bad leaks !!!!
Do the honourable thing and take the motorhome back to the dealer and park it across the entrance to the dealership and demand to have it either repaired to a satisfactory state or get you money back.
You must be mad to put up with such shoddy dealings
userChrisK5
Posted: 23 August 2011 8:08 PM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
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Location: Exeter. Swift Kontiki 669


Barney123 - 2011-08-23 7:59 PM

Hi, you say you have a "6 month old" motorhome which has had 3 bad leaks !!!!
Do the honourable thing and take the motorhome back to the dealer and park it across the entrance to the dealership and demand to have it either repaired to a satisfactory state or get you money back.
You must be mad to put up with such shoddy dealings



DITTO, name and shame the dealers that what i say.
userTracker
Posted: 23 August 2011 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 


Whilst I agree that the supplying dealer should be sorting this for you I don't think an agressive approach will do you any favours just yet?

I would be inclined to phone or email the Autocruise factory or customer care - if they have one - and explain the problem because if anyone will know the answer it will be the guys who make 'em!
usergdf
Posted: 24 August 2011 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 117
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Location: North East England, Rapido V68


Thanks for those responses.

I've thought of the first one but legally I can't reject the van because they didn't all happen soon enough in it's life! The dealer is in breach of contract according to the 1979 Sale of Goods Act as faults are happening within first 6 months. This means he must fix at no expense to me including getting to his premises and home again when I leave the van (I haven't sprung that bit on him yet but will!)

I'm not the only person with an Autocruyise Accent with this problem - see Swift Forum - and have now been in touch with Swift because it isn't the only fault.

However, to the original question, push fit or jubilee clip, which is best?

Dave
userUsinmyknaus
Posted: 24 August 2011 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
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Location: Surrey. Knaus/Renault


Agree with others as to politely but firmly insisting that the dealer fixes this for you and as a matter of urgency as water can be very damaging and penetrates into crevices etc much further than one might think.

Your situation sounds similar to the recurrent problems I had over 2 years with my van. Based on my (bad) experience when I was a newbie to this game:

Is the dealer trying to avoid tackling the problem because it could be a huge amount of labour to dismantle the interior of the van to fully trace and repair the leak(s)? He may not get much compensation for his time at manufacturer warranty rates, depending on the manufacturer's policy/contract with him and especially if there is more than one leak, as there was in my van.

Very poor quality fittings at pipe junctions caused multiple leaks in my van in the first 2 weeks of use and recurred over 18 months. For each complaint, after cursory inspections, the dealer claimed there was no fault to fix and that the water was "excessive condensation from the fridge/freezer owing to insufficient application of frame heating by the user".

Later, 2 months before the warranty expired, the dealer refused to honour it all because the manufacturer had gone bust, so I had to fix the problems myself. I spent several days dismantling, tracing, replacing and testing all the pipes I could access without actually destroying fixed panels and cured 3 leaks, one a constant drip, drip and 2 weeping joints. Cost was minimal, just good quality jubillee clips but the time needed was huge owing to the extent and complexity of dismantling as the worst leak (of course) was buriied deep under a series of furniture joints and a main bulkhead between the garage and habitation area. While doing that job I found that the much-vaunted German workers had done a "Friday Special" on the main heating duct to the nearside circulation, fixing of which greatly improved the heating in the habitation area (something else the dealer had said did not need doing when I asked him to check it!).

So, be persistent and do not be swayed by the dealer prevaricating.

As to push fit or jubillee I'll defer to the more technical who should be along shortly - the failed clips on my van were flimsy spring fittings and I replaced them with jubillee clips as they are familiar to me and in the tightest spot, where the worst leak was, I did not think the bulkier push fitting I had seen would fit. The Knaus assemblers had left no free hose so every joint was under tension and thus no scope to make the fresh, clean, straight cuts with the correct tool, which I understand are an important element in ensuring a good seal with push fittings.

Bob

Edited by Usinmyknaus 2011-08-24 9:03 AM
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 24 August 2011 8:59 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 


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gdf - 2011-08-23 3:55 PM

We have a 6month old Autocruise Accent which has now leaked 3 times from the connection between the hot water feed and the tap in the kitchen unit. Twice , so badly, that this has flooded the floor of the van. On each occasion there has been a problem, and currently, the hot water feed to the tap is via a piece of plastic pipe pushed onto the plastic tail? of the tap and fastened with a jubilee clip. The problem is thought to be caused by a vibration along the water pipe when the pump is operating combined with expansion of the pipe from the hot water in it causing the pipe to be pushed off. Tightening the jubilee clip causes the plastic tail to split.

Autocruise use this jubilee clip method and my dealer says it is the best but a caravan repair engineer who came to fix the problem says that the push fit connectors are best.

I have a view as to which I think is best but I'd appreciate any thoughts people have.

Thanks

Dave


There are two types of water-supply system generally used in motorhomes. One uses flexible hoses and worm-drive clips and the other employs semi-rigid pipework and push-fit couplings. Each approach has its pros and cons, but either (if sympathetically installed) should be perfectly adequate.

My Hobby (like many German-built motorhomes) has flexible hoses held to taps by worm-drive clips: my previous Herald used semi-rigid pipework that connected to taps via push-fit couplings. I don't consider one system as being 'better' than the other, they are just different.

It's essential with a hose + clip system that the wall of the hose be soft, thick and resilient enough for the hose to be compressed tightly on to a tap's ridged inlet 'tail' by the clip but resist any potential damage the clip might cause to the hose. It's also imperative that good quality worm-drive clips be used that won't deform when tightened and that don't have sharp edges that might cut the hose. Tap outlets also need to be rugged enough to protect themselves from damage due to over-enthusiastic clip-tightening, But, if a motorhome has good-quality taps, hoses and clips, and the fitter knows what he/she is doing, a hose + clip system will be fine.

Semi-rigid pipework using "John Guest"-type push-fit connectors is probably simpler to connect to taps, but may prove a swine to disconnect. There's also the potential for a poorly-installed semi-rigid pipework system to be noisy when a pressure-sensitive pump is involved.

The diagnosis that "The problem is thought to be caused by a vibration along the water pipe when the pump is operating combined with expansion of the pipe from the hot water in it causing the pipe to be pushed off" sounds like clutching-at-straws guesswork.

If the hose (or the tap's outlet) were expanding when warm then, logically, the 'grip' of the hose-to-tap connection should improve. It might be better suggested that it's the metal worm-drive clip that's expanding as one might reasonably expect that to reduce the 'grip'.

I'm not convinced that "vibration" plays a part in your problem, but it's possible that the hose that keeps disconnecting itself from the kitchen tap could benefit from some extra support. If the hose could be secured, say, to the interior wall of the kitchen-unit somewhere near to the tap, to prevent any downwards 'tugging' of the hose on the tap's inlet, this might be sufficient to stop it coming off. If vibration at the tap-inlet were a factor, then tethering the hose more securely might help.

With a water-system using a pressure-sensitive pump, there will be a significant pressure constantly within the pipework and, if there's any weakness grip-wise at a tap connection, there's every chance that the connection will fail. If a hose (flexible or push-fit) hasn't got a good grip on a tap's inlet, then it will disconnect under pressure. If you had a good hose, a good hose-clip and a tap inlet able to tolerate the amount of clip-tightening needed to obtain a reliable connection, you wouldn't be having these problems.

I don't know what taps Autocruise use on the Accent, but it may not be practicable to convert your tap to take a push-fit connector (which may, or may not, be something you had in mind). There are adapters that allow semi-rigid pipework to connect to taps with 'hose + clip' tails, but such adapters still use a worm-drive clip for the adapter-end that connects to the tap's tail.

Your comment "Tightening the jubilee clip causes the plastic tail to split" seems to indicate that you've already had tails (or the complete tap) replaced due to damage occurring when the clips have been tightened hard. If that's correct, then your choices now seem to be either to insist that a different tap with more robust tails be fitted, or that the connection to the kitchen tap be re-made very carefully with a new tail (perhaps a new tap), a new piece of hose, a new clip, and with consideration being given to the hose getting extra support.

Although you've had problems with the kitchen hot-tap connection, there is (presumably) a similar type of hose + clip connection for the bathroom wash-basin/shower hot-water fitting and (again presumably) that's been problem-free (despite the expansion/vibration it must suffer!!) Basically, as long as the kitchen-tap Autocruise use for Accent is fit for purpose, it must be possible to obtain a reliable hose + clip hot-water connection to it.
userflicka
Posted: 25 August 2011 9:28 PM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 


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Location: NE Lincolnshire - M/H - 2012 Adria Sport S572SL


Hi gdf
If there is a "vibration" problem as stated by your dealer, it will most probably be at it's worst whilst the engine is ticking over when stationary. So it should be possible to check for any hose vibration at home.
IF, "vibration" is present it could be possible to secure the hose reasonably close to the Tap connection by using a Cable Tie with a self adhesive Mounting pad.

http://www.thetoolboxshop.com/auto-electrical-113-c.asp

Although I suspect that if the cause is "Vibration" the hose will be too short & may also need replacing with one slightly longer.

Edited by flicka 2011-08-25 9:31 PM
userBrambles
Posted: 26 August 2011 1:16 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 


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I think if the plastic tail is splitting when the hose clip is tightemed up then it may be it is the weak point of the connection. If it is breaking/splitting easily then maybe the plastic wall of the tail pipe is also easily deformed and loosens off with heat. Maybe better to find a different style of tail to connect to the tap or go for push fittings. Another option is to find an insert (straight piece of brass or stainless steel tube) which fits the tail pipe to reinforce it.
userRayjsj
Posted: 26 August 2011 10:08 PM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 


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gdf - 2011-08-24 8:40 AM

Thanks for those responses.

Swift because it isn't the only fault.

However, to the original question, push fit or jubilee clip, which is best?

Dave


In my opinion Stainless steel Jubilee clips are best, they can be made 'really' tight, where as push fittings are un-adjustable. I also agree with brambles, if the 'Tail' you are fitting the pipe over is deforming, you need to replace it with a brass or copper one, or an 'insert' as brambles says.
I had two water leaks on my 'Pre-Swift' Autocruise Starburst, (pump 'chattering' every 10 mins or so) but once found they were easily fixed by tightening the jubilee clips up.
I have looked over a few 'Swift' Autocruises (coachbuilts), and think that the quality isn't as good.
Ray

Edited by Rayjsj 2011-08-26 10:14 PM
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 27 August 2011 9:52 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 


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Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


The type of sink/tap used on the Accent can be seen on

http://www.autocruise.co.uk/uploads/Reviews/P46-47_MCM_LiveInTest.pdf

The Accent's kitchen-sink arrangement is conceptually similar to my Hobby's - a smallish stainless-steel sink with a fold-down tap and glass lid (though it has to said that it's easy to access the tails of the Hobby's tap, whereas it looks like it may be necessary to remove an Accent's oven to do this).

If the Accent's tap is like my Hobby's, I can't see how it would be practicable to fit a strengthening 'insert'' to its plastic tail without severely constricting the water's flow-rate, while replacement of the plastic tail by a metal or 'push-on fitting' type is probably also a non-starter. Leisure-vehicle tap connection-fittings aren't (as far as I'm aware) interchangeable: they either involve a hose-clip or a John Guest coupling and, if you want to change from the former to the latter (or vice versa), you'll need to obtain a complete new tap that has been manufactured with the appropriate tails.

As the problem evidently isn't unique to Dave's Accent (I lost the will to live part way through the Swift forum registration procedure, so I haven't read other owners' comments), Swift should be able to offer owners (and Autocruise dealerships) advice and (hopefully) a credible solution.

Dave's motorhome is still under warranty, so it's plainly the vending dealership's responsibility to rectify faults. Although Dave hasn't specifically said this, I suspect that his Accent's kitchen-tap isn't currently leaking but, because this has happened three times before, he is afraid (quite understandably) that it will happen again. If that assumption is correct, then it may be difficult for him to persuade his dealer to take preventive action to address a potential future fault (rather than an existing problem) unless Swift officially recognises the fault as being general to Accent motorhomes.
usergdf
Posted: 27 August 2011 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
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Location: North East England, Rapido V68


Thanks to all again for the advice.

It does read that as I originally thought the jubilee clip is the way to go. I asked because the dealer is going to put two taps in front of me, one of each, and ask me to decide and I wanted some other views.

I'm NOT going to pick as I'm certain if I do he will use the fact that I picked to worm his way out of future problems with it.

Dave
userandrew515
Posted: 27 August 2011 5:27 PM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
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My Autocruise Alto has twice been flooded because the hot water side of the sink tap has become detached from the plastic hose carrying hot water. On both occasions the hot water and pump were switched on. The hot and cold pipes leading to the sink tap (for the last 18") are both blue hosepipes. I suspect the blue pipe carrying hot water cannot tolerate heat and, when it is hot, the pipe softens and the pressure within the system (pump on) causes it to pop off. After the first incident the dealer said it was down to the installer (Autocruise) failing to tighten the jubilee clip. Tightening failed to solve the problem. At my suggestion and request for a heat tolerant pipe, the dealer has now sent me a section of red pipe to replace the blue. I hope it works! I note subscribers mention both "vibration" and "pipe too short" so the red pipe will be fitted a little overlong and secured midway just in case these points are relevant. I look forward to reading further posts and a flood free future.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 28 August 2011 8:55 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 


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andrew515 - 2011-08-27 5:27 PM

...The hot and cold pipes leading to the sink tap (for the last 18") are both blue hosepipes. I suspect the blue pipe carrying hot water cannot tolerate heat and, when it is hot, the pipe softens and the pressure within the system (pump on) causes it to pop off. After the first incident the dealer said it was down to the installer (Autocruise) failing to tighten the jubilee clip. Tightening failed to solve the problem. At my suggestion and request for a heat tolerant pipe, the dealer has now sent me a section of red pipe to replace the blue...


Are you saying that, prior to "the last 18" of the hose pipework leading to your Alto's sink tap, there is something other than blue hosepipe (eg. a different colour hose or semi-rigid plastic hose rather than the flexible stuff)? If so, could you provide more information, please?

Surprisingly (to me at any rate) there seems to be some price-related evidence that the blue and red flexible hoses commonly used in UK leisure-vehicles have different specifications, with the (cheaper) blue hose being marketed specifically for cold-water use and the (dearer) red hose for hot-water. I can't say I'm wholly convinced though, as semi-rigid plastic hose, although marketed in red or blue versions, has the same price and specification. I also note from my French camping accessory brochures that, although reinforced water hose is advertised in red, blue or uncoloured forms, there's no price difference and no advice that one type should be used for cold water and another for hot.

An advantage of using different coloured hose is that it's easier to establish which hose should be carrying hot water and which cold. This should be helpful at the motorhome/caravan manufacturing stage, as there's less chance of an installation mistake being made (eg. connecting a cold-water hose to the hot side of a tap). Presumably Hobby thinks that its workforce is bright enough to install a motorhome water system without hose-colour assistance (or Hobby employs a colour-blind workforce!) as all my Hobby's water hose is the uncoloured reinforced type.

There is a good deal of pressure in a leisure-vehicle's water system that includes a diaphragm-type pump and such pumps can produce significant pulsing/jarring within the pipework. Consequently, anything you can do (eg. securing the hose at a midway point) to encourage the hose to stay connected to the tap is bound to be a good idea.
userandrew515
Posted: 28 August 2011 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
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Thanks for your response. The last 18" of pipe work is the flexible garden hose type with blue fitted to both hot and cold. Ordinary red insulation tape marks the hot side to remind the fitter which one goes on the hot side. The tap has one red and one blue serrated concave rigid plastic tails. Five factors may play a role in the problem. 1. Pipe quality. 2. Pump pressure. 3. Jubilee clip (uneven circular grip). 4. Pipe/ tap tail sizes 5. Grill oven heat about 4" immediately below sink tap connections.
Unfortunately, the dealer sent me a red hose with a larger diameter (2/3mm larger internal and external) so there is no point in attempting a fix with this material. I seem to recall somebody posting a note regarding leaks caused by different pipe sizes.
Clearly the problem existed on delivery and we have not been able to enjoy full use of the van. It is about three months since the first flood and almost five months since delivery. We are fed up with being fobbed off and intend to give notice to rescind the contract and demand our money back.
andrew
userandrew515
Posted: 28 August 2011 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
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Me again. Missed your first point. The pipework prior to the "blue garden hoses" is proper red and blue water pipe with push fit connectors. The washbasin is connected without problem to these "proper pipes" with flexible stainless tails to the tap. Perhaps the solution is to replace the complete kitchen with stuff of merchantable quality and design. Surely the consumer should not have to tolerate these important issues with a very expensive product. Certainly domestic products with fundamental faults would be rejected straightaway!
Andrew
userBrambles
Posted: 28 August 2011 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 


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The problem with PVC hose is it usually only rated up to 50 deg C or some up o 60 degree C. It is ery difficult to find one suitavelk for higher temperatures. For hot water under pressure you are sailing very close to the wind as I thinkl in my case the hot watre on high setting is 60 degrees. PVC wil soften and permanently deform and lose its memory effect and then shrink when cooling...hence leaks at the clamped conections. You can get higher temperature PVC hose but I can't find any suitable.

The next stage would be go the easy route and use VMQ silicone rubber hose. This is readily available and would cope admirably with hot water and is a good solution to any issues regarding the hose if you are using clamped connections. So in comparision with bog standard PVC hose and clamps, I would prefer the push fitting route and corrosponding tube although it is not so good for getting around bends.

Another option is to buy a washing machine connection hose, and cut it to give you the lenghth of hose you need after checking of course it is the right bore size. But, PVC hose, generally is not really suitable for hot water. You can just imagine the Buyer at the motorhome builders..." I need some 15mm bore hose for 60 degrees water." Vendor..."Ah yes here is some PVC hose and it says 60 degrees. Buyer ..."Fine, I shall have 1000 meters please. Fitter .." this hose is no use". Buying department.." yes it is, the supplier says it is fine for hot water".

userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 29 August 2011 8:22 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 


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The reinforced water hose advertised in my French camping accessory brochures has pressure/temperature specification details provided. The 10mm diameter hose has a pressure resistance of 14 bars at 20°C and a temperature resistance of 7 bars at 60°C, while the 12mm diameter hose has a pressure resistance of 17 bars at 20°C and a temperature resistance of 8 bars at 60°C.

Leisure-vehicle water heaters can achieve temperatures above well 60°C (a Truma Ultrastore boiler’s maximum heat setting is 70°C), but I believe this is largely academic when it comes to hose + clip tap connections. As I said earlier “if a motorhome has good-quality taps, hoses and clips, and the fitter knows what he/she is doing, a hose + clip system will be fine”. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and there are many thousands of motorhomes (ancient and modern) with water systems using conventional reinforced hose and hose + clip connections that never suffer from the type of problem mentioned in this thread. Of course (as Bob found to his cost with his Knaus), if the motorhome manufacturer uses poor-quality taps, hoses and/or clips, and/or the fitter is incompetent, then it's a fair bet the system will leak.

It would appear from Andrew’s comments that Autocruise may be using hose + clip connections only for the kitchen tap, with the rest of the water system using semi-rigid pipe and push-fit connections. There are good reasons for mixing conventional flexible hose with semi-rigid pipe (eg. when connecting to a diaphragm water-pump), but Autocruise seems to be changing from semi-rigid pipe to flexible hose purely for the convenience of using a design of kitchen tap that has hose + clip ‘tails’. As far as I’m aware there is no adapter that permits semi-rigid pipe to connect directly to a hose + clip tail, hence the insertion of lengths of flexible hose.

Dave’s dealer has offered him the choice of two tap designs, one with hose + clip tails and the other with push-fit coupling tails. If Dave’s Accent’s water system matches Andrew’s Alto’s in having semi-rigid pipework except for the kitchen tap, then I echo Brambles’s preference and I’d opt for the push-fit tap and replace the existing ‘garden hose’ sections with semi-rigid pipe. I can’t say I’m fond of the thought that (in Andrew’s case at least) there’s a gas oven so close to the underside of the taps with (I assume) no heat protection between oven top and tap connections, but despite this, I believe choosing a push-fit coupling tap and replacing the present flexible hose sections with semi-rigid pipework has a high likelihood of providing long-term leak-free reliability.
userReeceCross
Posted: 11 July 2016 10:08 AM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
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Location: 74 Warren St WEST HILL


For preventing water Leaks, for pipework prefer John Guest - type push-fit connectors . Better compatible to connect to all types of Tap sizes. Use T - elbow for pipe fittings. At best deals , you can surely prefer John Guest fittings for Leak prevention.
usersara rutter
Posted: 13 July 2016 1:28 PM
Subject: RE: Advice request - Water Leaks
 
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Posts: 1



Hi there,

Call Paul at Spectrum Hose Ltd 01494 524332 , they are based in High Wycombe, Bucks but can do next day delivery for you anywhere as items in stock in there massive warehouse. Well worth a visit or a phone call. He also stocks John Guest Fittings.
Website shows there more popular items if you prefer shopping for items that way, hose assemblies can be made up straight away for you but a phone call can give you the answers to solve problems you may have, he will come up with an answer to help you I guarantee.

Fantastic knowledge on anything to do with hoses from water, hydraulic, air, gas, sanitation etc. He owns a 9 metre camper van which he regulary takes out and about .

hope this helps .

sara



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