Battery damage

[rajco]

Main battery flat (not known at the time) and tried to start engine. Result hab battery could not start engine and now I've nothing working in any part of the camper.

Am charging main battery, and check shows hab battery is fully charged.

Have checked most fuses and all OK, but suspect there's another fuse somewhere which I've not found.

 

Any advice much appreciated.

 

rajco

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

You haven't said what van, but most will have a starter battery and a habitation battery. If your van won't start (but it would be useful to know if the engine turns over but won't fire, or is completely dead), it should only be the starter battery that is involved.

 

With the engine off, the habitation battery should be disconnected from all engine support functions, and should only connect to the supply from the alternator, for charging, once the engine is running.

 

If the habitation battery had not disconnected properly when the van was last used the starter may have tried to draw power from it, but this would (should!!) have blown the fuse usually located at, or near, the habitation battery + terminal. If this happened it may explain why no electrics on your van are presently working, but the battery (I assume tested with a separate volt meter) shows full charge.

 

However, I would not replace that fuse once you've found it and verified its condition, as you first need to locate the reason why the starter would be drawing power from the habitation battery.

 

There is usually a relay, sometimes a pair of relays, often at the back of the engine bay near the scuttle, that control charging of the habitation battery and power to the fridge when the engine is running (details of your van should enable someone familiar with the make to guide you to this). It may be that this has failed in the closed position, so that the habitation battery is permanently linked to the starter battery and alternator. If so, you will need to replace this relay before dealing with the fuse at the habitation battery.

[rajco]

Thank you for your quick reply, Brian.

The camper is a Fiat Ducato 3ltr diesel automatic, 5 yrs old low mileage; all services done.

 

I have given it a 20 min run once a month during the winter and was surprised that it wouldn't start last week. The starter battery was flat (temp in garage 1C which didn't help! ) I have since this charged the starter battery using a charger.

 

I have since learned that in such circumstances I should have isolated the hab battery to prevent damage etc. caused by using this battery to start the engine.

 

Yesterday I spent time checking fuses and the state of the hab battery (which is fully charged) I don't think I've found all the fuses yet, especially the one near the red switch which isolates the hab battery. I suspect this is underneath trim near the red switch.

 

I don't fancy spending much time there today as it's still bitterly cold with a N wind, but I will try checking the hab battery circuit to see the present state of things.

 

Best regards,

Rick

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Still don't understand what the van is, Rick. :-) You say a Ducato, but whose conversion? Is it a self build, a panel van conversion, or a coachbuilt? This may have bearing on where the various bits and pieces are. You say 5 years old, so I assume first registered in 2012? If you can say what it is it is likely that someone on here has a similar - even identical - van, so will be able to give much more accurate information than my guesses. Make and actual model would be ideal.

 

If the charging relay (assuming there is one!) is doing its job, it should not matter how you charge the starter battery because there should be no connection between starter and habitation batteries unless the engine is running.

 

Not sure what you mean by the "red switch which isolates the hab battery". All vans tend to differ in detail, and none of mine have had such a red switch. That is why it will help if you say what make the conversion actually is. But, there should be a fuse at, or very close to, the + terminal on the hab battery, not near a battery switch unless the battery switch is co-located with the battery - in which case I wouldn't expect there to be any trim around.

 

Understand about the wind. It's none too warm down here, either! :-)

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian

 

I think that Rick lives at Saint-Séverin in Charente, which may complicate diagnosis if he has a motorhome not imported to the UK.

 

Hobby fitted a habitation-battery isolation switch on some of their models - you may recall that it was referred to here

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Battery-Charger-PC-100HB-T/37601/

 

but I’ve no idea if that’s relevant in this instance.

[Brian Kirby]

Ah, in which case that switch may well be the coupleur-separateur beloved of French converters. Font-Vendome, Campreve, or possibly even one of the smaller converters? But, assuming it is a PVC, there are so many possibilities when the larger firms are also taken into account.

[Derek Uzzell]

A coupleur-séparateur is just a voltage-sensing relay (description here)

 

http://forum.bivouac4x4.net/bidouilles/coupleurseparateur/index.html

 

that’s widely used in ‘foreign-made’ motorhomes instead of the UK’s traditional split-charge relay approach.

 

It can be separate or integrated into a ‘black box’ (eg. with CBE's PC modular electrical systems), but I’m doubtful that it would ever be manually switched.

 

It’s probable that the red switch Nick mentions is exactly what he says it is - an isolator switch

 

http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product_list/30

 

to disconnect the habitation battery when the motorhome will be unused for an extended period.

 

Presumably, having recharged the starter-battery Rick’s motorhome will now start and run OK. As the habitation battery is well charged but none of the habitation 12V circuits are working, a blown fuse does sound like a good bet.

[rajco]

Sorry for not giving camper details, I was fixated on the starter battery being flat. However Derek was spot on with my geographic details St Severin in SW France and the camper details Font Vendome bought new from them (near Brantome not far away).

 

I'm just thawing out after a couple of hours in a very cold camper garage where I removed the trim (sounds easy does'nt it) and checked four fuses behind the isolating switch. One 15, two 10, and one 7.5 all in good order!

 

My wife has just rescued me from a freezing garage (had to shut the doors of the garage against the strong wind) so I had to phone for release. Didn't have time to test whether all was now working, I assume there's no change as the fuses checked were not at fault.

[rajco]

Have just spent a happy hour!! in the camper. Removed trim from covering the hab Battery red switch and found a couple more fuses which both tested OK. Both batteries are charged but still no power to hab area of camper.

[Rayjsj]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-28 2:06 PM

 

Brian

 

I think that Rick lives at Saint-Séverin in Charente, which may complicate diagnosis if he has a motorhome not imported to the UK.

 

Hobby fitted a habitation-battery isolation switch on some of their models - you may recall that it was referred to here

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Battery-Charger-PC-100HB-T/37601/

 

but I’ve no idea if that’s relevant in this instance.

Blimey Derek, I reckon you are still getting a live feed from GCHQ, you seem to know everything about everybody, or do you just have a really good Rolordex.. ;-)

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-28 6:27 PM

 

A coupleur-séparateur is just a voltage-sensing relay (description here)...................

You're right, of course. I was thinking of the manual coupe batterie switch, as illustrated by Robinhood in your linked forum string. Possibly not relevant in Rick's case.

 

So, both batteries are fully charged. I'm assuming the van starts and runs OK, and it is just the hab electrics that are dead.

 

Rick, I still think you need to find the main 12V fuse, which should be on the + terminal of the habitation battery, or very close to it. It should be a much higher rated fuse than you have yet found. Ours is 50A, and is a jumbo flat fuse (red) in a holder on the actual battery terminal connector.

 

If you can't find it, Font Vendome should know where it is. I think you're about 25 miles from them, but maybe the van could use a run? :-)

 

If that fuse blew when you tried starting, it would have taken out all the habitation electrics. So, you have the symptoms, but do you have the fuse?

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian

 

This may be of interest (the risk of battery damage is mentioned in the posting of Mar 14 Avr 2015 - 21:26 by “Bdoni”.)

 

http://www.fourgon-passion.com/t3595-a-quoi-sert-le-coupe-circuit

 

The risk of battery damage is mentioned in the posting of Mar 14 Avr 2015 - 21:26 by “Bdoni”.

 

It’s also mentioned here (posting of Lun 13 Fév 2012 13:25 by “rejanjo”)

 

http://www.le-camping-car.com/forum/font-vendome-f80/brantome-pbs-batterie-moteur-coupe-circuit-t1411.html

 

(Not sure I believe that advice - I’d want confirmation/explanation from Font Vendôme.)

 

[Brian Kirby]

Interesting how confused they all are! Seems from one post you may have to buy the manual as an extra - but surely not? Perhaps it's all explained in the manual, but Rick never got his. Odd too, that one poster says he asked FV but they were "mute"! It is clearly a switch that can be put to various uses by various converters. However, from what Rick said, I'm still inclined to suspect that main 12V fuse - at least until it is found and eliminated.

[rajco]

Right Brian, we're both on the same wavelength.

In the hab batt compartment there is also the battery charger on top of which there is a green 30amp fuse.

It was the first that I checked ok and have this morning rechecked it - still OK.

 

I must have checked about 20 fuses all OK.

 

I've just read two or three posts in French written by French Font Vendome owners from which it's clear that the switch is an isolation device to prevent damage to the hab batt if the starter batt is too low to start the engine!!!

 

I'm going to Font Vendome this afternoon and hope for more info then. I have both batts charged, the cab electrics OK but nothing in the living area.

 

In searching for info I found something in the original paperwork (73 pages) which said that the switch was to prevent damage when starter battery was flat. We had never used the switch as the battery had never been a problem and with time passing, had been forgotten.

 

But the question remains as both batteries are now charged what has been damaged and how to repair it. I'm going to Font Vendome this afternoon for answers to some questions.

[rajco]

Gave the camper a good run.

Arrived at Font Vendome Brantome only to find they've decamped to the other side of Perigeux.

Arrived at Perigueux only to find all technicians away at the Marsac show.

Home again after 100kms fruitless journey.

 

Will take Camper to our local garage tomorrow - not expecting too much.

[Brian Kirby]

Annoying. Your ploy may work out, but the electrics on the habitation side won't be familiar to your local garagiste - unless he has an auto electrician on tap.

 

If you have a multi meter I think you may find it more productive to measure the voltage starting at the habitation battery, and just keep working your way back along the distribution cable until you find the point at which you have no volts. This should be at, or before, the main fuseboard, so not too difficult to trace.

[rajco]

A bit beyond my knowledge Brian. I've checked the hab batt which was 13.5 but not clear to me what to measure next.

It seems odd that having said that using the hab bat to start the motor could damage the battery, there it is, holding a good charge but "damage" is affecting the total habitation.

I must say I enjoyed the sunny run today with all the fwd section working as it should.

[aandncaravan]

The habitation battery is only at risk if it is a Gel or an Old fashioned, 'true' Leisure battery and you crank the Starter a long time.

Most habitation batteries these days are also reasonable Starter batteries, so very unlikely you have battery damage.

 

You may have either a burnt cable or fuse? If you can give me some idea of the Electronic components on the habitation side I might be able to guess the installation layout?

 

For example what make is the charger, the display/control and the Fusebox?

 

Most Motorhome Electronics manufacturers supply a suggested guide for the Motorhome builder on installation, rarely followed, but not usually too far out.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Allan

 

I believe Font-Vendôme uses Nordelettronica components (control -panel, fuse-box, charger, etc.) which you’ll be familiar with.

 

The attached photo is of the electrical installation of a 2014 “Brantome” model.

[rajco]

Thank you both for continuing the search.

 

In the photo it's clear that the "Brantome" is a bigger camper than our Venise which at 5m40 does not boast so much space and the under seat hab batt has fuses and the battery charger as well. The common item is the red and white security tape! Everything in this compartment checked OK. Also no smell of burnt wiring.

 

We did manage to get the name and phone no. of the Font Vendome electrician whom we can try to contact on Thursday.

 

Thinking of layout, which is cramped being a van conversion, from the front looking back -

Left hand side: isolater switch; sliding door; fridge; wardrobe; 230v socket; test panel;bed-head lights.

Rt side: hab batt; fuses; batt charger; toilet; bed.

Ceiling lights.

 

Never used:water heater.

 

[aandncaravan]

The fuses most likely to be affected are the two 'Strip' fuses in the two big Black holders directly above the battery,

I would guess from the setup you have that if the fuses are all intact, then it may be that the Fuseboard (Ne185?) has taken a hit? Is the control/display unit an NE152?

 

On the Nordelettronica pages http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/nordelettronica.php there is a picture of both an NE152 and an NE185 further down the page. The photo of the back of the Ne185 gives an idea of how complex the 'fuseboard' is.

 

The wires usually run from the Starter battery to the back of the fuseboard (usually B1 in the photo) and from the Leisure battery to the back of the Fuseboard (usually B2 in the photo).

It is the Fuseboard that will then connect the two batteries together when it senses a D+ signal. This box of tricks handles all power distribution/Control plus Alternator charge.

 

Under normal circumstances the Nordelettronica Fuseboard 'split relay' will be open so shouldn't allow any current flow from the Leisure battery to the Starter Motor so I don't understand how the power was drawn from the habitation battery. Unless there is a separate cable joining the two?

Normally the isolator switch, as in your photo, is wired to isolate the Hab battery from the NE185 Fuseboard.

 

 

Will the unit power on so power the habitation area lights if you either run the Engine or connect Mains EHU?

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

[Keithl]

Hi All,

 

A bit of a wild guess here but is it possible that the 'Red Isolator Switch' is not an isolator at all but an emergency starter switch? ie When turned 'ON' it connects both batteries in parallel to allow starting of the engine if you have a flat starter battery.

 

Try tracing the wires from the Red Switch and see where they go.

 

Keith.

[aandncaravan]

Keith, a good guess and a possibility, but if that was the case there would be no fuses between one battery and the other, or at least very big fuses that would take the load of Starting the engine.

Therefore shouldn't cause any issues if it was used like that.

 

The other reason I am not sure it is wired this way is because only the Starter battery ran down, not the habitation battery. Yet if they were linked directly, both batteries would have dropped low together?

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Let’s review the situation...

 

Rick (the original poster) lives in France at Saint-Séverin. He owns a 2010/2011 Font Vendôme (FV) “Venise” panel-van-conversion based on a Fiat Ducato X250 with 3.0litre motor and ConfortMatic transmission.

 

As far as I’m aware FV motorhomes have never been officially marketed in the UK, so it’s unlikely that hands-on information about the converter’s construction practices will be available from UK motorhome forums.

 

FV is part of the Trigano Group and the factory is based in Brantôme, about 30 miles from Rick’s home. There’s a throw-away line on a French motorhome forum warning that the FV factory’s policy is to insist that owners initially consult an FV dealership about problems and that the factory will not work on an FV motorhome unless this has first been agreed between the factory and the dealership. The nearest FV dealership to Rick’s home seems to be at Montrem (about 27 miles away).

 

http://www.destinea-perigueux.fr

 

Rick initially said “Main battery flat (not known at the time) and tried to start engine. Result hab battery could not start engine and now I've nothing working in any part of the camper” and this is seems to suggest that the vehicle’s habitation-battery did come into play during the starting phase. Brian Kirby explored this, but it was never established what actually happened when an attempt was made to start the motorhome.

 

It’s evident from French forums that FV motorhomes’ electrical system includes Nordelettronica components. It’s also plain that the ‘red switch’ is part of the standard specification. There seems to be doubt on French forums as to what the switch’s exact purpose is and how the vehicle’s owner is supposed to employ it. However, FV apparently does provide reasonable documentation. Rick says his documentation has 73 pages and advises “...that the switch was to prevent damage when starter battery was flat”.

 

There’s no doubt that the red switch is an isolation-switch and FV is not the only motorhome manufacturer to fit one. The Owner Handbook for Chausson A-Class models describes the thing as “A battery cut-off switch that deactivates all the habitation-area 12V circuits”. (Chausson A-Class motorhomes use Nordelettronica electrical kit, but this may be completely incidental.) The only warning given by Chausson about the switch is that, to avoid the possibility of habitation-area equipment being damaged, all such equipment should be turned off before the battery cut-off switch is switched off.

 

It might be helpful to know what the exact wording (in French) is in Rick’s documentation about the red switch. The assumption is being made that it is there to protect the habitation-battery when the motorhome’s starter-battery is heavily discharged and an attempt is made to start the vehicle, but alternative ‘theories’ are offered on French forums by FV owners who one might expect to have expert knowledge.

 

Allan (aandncaravan) asks if everything on the habitation side is completely ‘dead’, or are there any signs of habitation-area life when the motorhome’s motor is running or the motorhome is connected to a 230V power source. (eg. Does anything appear on the Nordelettronica control-panel? Is the battery-charger charging the habitation-battery?) It might be useful for this to be confirmed Yes or No.

 

It would have been nice if Rick had found a simple fuse failure, but that hasn’t happened. French forums mention instances of the habitation-area equipment in an FV motorhome stopping working (completely or in part) and a printed-circuit-board needing replacement. So Rick’s problem may relate to the ‘fuse-board’ or to the control-panel.

 

I don’t think inspired guesswork (or luck!) is going to resolve this and, as there’s a Font Vendôme dealership quite close to Rick’s home, that seems to be the logical place to take the motorhome for advice/attention.

 

 

[Billggski]

Hi Derek, are you going to audition for the next series of "Sherlock"?