Daytime Running Lights

[mike19841]

Just about to buy a new (2014) Bessacar 462. It does not have daytime running lights which I thought was compulsory on all vehicles from 2012. Can anyone advise please.

[Robinhood]

....the cut-off date for the legislation on DRLs is aligned with the type-approval date of the vehicle model, not the year of sale, or even manufacture.

 

If your 'van is built on a base vehicle that got its type approval before the cut-off date (which is most likely the case) then it won't (need to) have DRLs.

 

 

[Tracker]

Our van does not have DRLs but it does have a light switch!

[Billggski]

Check when the base vehicle was built, it could be up to two years before the motorhome body was added.

[Robinhood]

...further to my above, this clarification cut and pasted from the AA site.

 

====

 

European legislation adopted in 2008 required dedicated daytime running lights (DRL) to be fitted to all new 'types' of passenger cars and small delivery vans since February 2011. Trucks and buses followed from August 2012.

 

Daytime running lights are designed to come on automatically when the engine is started - all other lights should remain off.

 

Note: This does not mean that every new car first registered after February 2011 will have DRL fitted. The requirement only applies to models that go through the European whole vehicle type approval process after that date i.e. new or substantially facelifted models.

 

====

 

The EWVTA on the Bessacarr in question will have been undertaken before the cut-off date for DRLs, (and production continued after), hence the non fitment.

 

An easy and cheap enough addition if you want them:

 

http://www.ledcom.co.uk

 

[Rayjsj]

mike19841 - 2014-08-09 11:58 AM

 

Just about to buy a new (2014) Bessacar 462. It does not have daytime running lights which I thought was compulsory on all vehicles from 2012. Can anyone advise please.

 

 

If it has a Fiat X250 cab, then the Daytime running lights can be programmed OFF in the menu for the variable controls. It's in the handbook. I know this because I programmed mine OFF. I hate the things. I should state that mine are the Headlights, not the snazzy little LED strips that the latest models have, I don't mind those, as they do not dazzle. Mine is a 2012 model. Ray

[Tracker]

Rayjsj - 2014-08-09 6:52 PM

I know this because I programmed mine OFF. I hate the things. I should state that mine are the Headlights, not the snazzy little LED strips that the latest models have, I don't mind those, as they do not dazzle. Mine is a 2012 model. Ray

 

Why Ray?

 

If your lights dazzle in the daytime maybe they are out of adjustment and you won't know until MOT time 2015?

 

Surely anything that reduces the risk of collision has to be a good thing?

 

Which is why we tend to travel with side lights on and at worst it costs nowt and does no harm?

[colin]

Further to robin's post, I have a 2013 reg Suzi with no DRL's, but I thought all x2/50's had them fitted for couple of years.

p.s. haven't all the 'black dash' onwards x2/50's got DRL's?

[Robinhood]

colin - 2014-08-09 7:53 PM

 

Further to robin's post, I have a 2013 reg Suzi with no DRL's, but I thought all x2/50's had them fitted for couple of years.

p.s. haven't all the 'black dash' onwards x2/50's got DRL's?

 

....still an option only (no 692) on all Ducatos in what I think was the last set of details operative for the X/250 (from Apr 2013).

[Derek Uzzell]

This earlier forum-thread discusses the mysteries of DRLs and the Ducato:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-Side-lights-Is-my-van-legal-/33578/

 

As I understand it, it has not been possible to drive a Ducato using just the ‘side lights’ (as Tracker does) since the introduction of the Euro 5 version in mid-2011.

 

All Ducato Owner Handbooks (including the handbook relating to the very latest X290 ‘facelifted’ Ducato) that include a section on Daytime Running Lights also include the rider "for versions/markets, where provided”. But ‘basic’ DRLs should be fitted as standard to all X290 Ducatos marketed within the EU, with LED DRLs as an option.

 

It’s worth being aware that the standard specification of a vehicle marketed in one country may differ significantly when the vehicle is marketed elsewhere. For example, the UK brochure for the latest Ducato states that Electronic Stability Control (ESC) is a standard feature. Conversely, although the French brochure has a similar-looking section on ESC, there’s no indication that ESC is standard for France--marketed X290s. Consequently, if one bought a new X290-based LHD motorhome in France it’s likely you'd need to opt (and pay extra) for ESC, whereas, if you bought the same motorhome in RHD in the UK, you’d get ESC as standard.

 

The French vehicle marketplace seems to be relatively laid back about ‘safety’ features. In 2004, when I was considering obtaining a new Ford Transit-based LHD motorhome from France, I was startled to discover that antilock braking was an option for France-marketed Transits, although standard for Transits marketed in the UK and Germany.

[Muswell]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-08-10 8:55 AM

 

The French vehicle marketplace seems to be relatively laid back about ‘safety’ features. In 2004, when I was considering obtaining a new Ford Transit-based LHD motorhome from France, I was startled to discover that antilock braking was an option for France-marketed Transits, although standard for Transits marketed in the UK and Germany.

 

I remember that many years ago Volvo based their advertising in the UK on safety. They tried the same approach in France but dropped it after a while because the French didn't see safety as a great virtue. I think they then moved to a status/image campaign

[Tracker]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-08-10 8:55 AM

As I understand it, it has not been possible to drive a Ducato using just the ‘side lights’ (as Tracker does) since the introduction of the Euro 5 version in mid-2011.

 

.

 

Another good reason not to buy a Euro 5?

 

Progress eh?

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-08-10 8:55 AM

 

 

It’s worth being aware that the standard specification of a vehicle marketed in one country may differ significantly when the vehicle is marketed elsewhere. For example, the UK brochure for the latest Ducato states that Electronic Stability Control (ESC) is a standard feature. Conversely, although the French brochure has a similar-looking section on ESC, there’s no indication that ESC is standard for France--marketed X290s. Consequently, if one bought a new X290-based LHD motorhome in France it’s likely you'd need to opt (and pay extra) for ESC, whereas, if you bought the same motorhome in RHD in the UK, you’d get ESC as standard.

 

 

I was intrigued by this, as I thought Fiat were making quite a play of the standardisation of ESP.

 

On the French site, the X/290 brochure appears silent on the issue of standard provision of ESP (ESC). (the UK site has a brochure for the X/290, and a Technical book only for the X/250 :-().

 

The (X/250) French brochure certainly (specifically) shows ESP as an option, but if I use the X/290 "configurator" to specify a vehicle, it does not give ESP as an option (though you can add Traction+, for which I think ESP is a prerequisite, for €200).

 

I suspect that ESP is now standard across the board.

 

Edited to add:

 

The above confirmed by the reference to ESC in this press release:

 

http://www.fiatprofessionalpress.fr/press/article/477

[Derek Uzzell]

Robinhood - 2014-08-10 10:26 AM

 

I was intrigued by this, as I thought Fiat were making quite a play of the standardisation of ESP...

 

 

That had also been my understanding.

 

This is the French price-list for Rapido’s 2015 collection as posted last month on a French camping-car forum

 

http://camping-car.vraiforum.com/t689-Tarifs-Rapido-collection-2015.htm

 

Rapido chooses to refer to the ESC system as “ESP” and two FIAT options are shown in the list - one for ALKO-chassis models and the other for non-ALKO models. Both refer to “ESP et TRACTION+” and the prices are €900 or €550 respectively.

 

Now, if ESC is standard on all X290 Ducatos irrespective of the national marketplace a) the Rapido option prices are truly exorbitant for the Traction+ feature alone and b) features that are integrated into the basic ESC system and button-controllable by a driver should be identifiable visually by studying the vehicle’s dashboard.

 

AntiSlip Regulation (ASR) is an integral part of ESC and can be disabled by the driver by pressing a dashboard button marked “ASR OFF”. The latter is the rightmost button of a horizontal set positioned beneath the heating/ventilation controls.

 

These are links to adverts for two 2015 X290-based Rapidos

 

http://www.idylcar.fr/fr/camping-cars/neuf/Rapido/640-7372.html

 

http://www.idylcar.fr/fr/camping-cars/neuf/Rapido/640-7382.html

 

with a thumbnail photo showing the dashboard in each case. It’s plain that there’s no ASR OFF button so, logically, neither vehicle has ESC.

[Robinhood]

....hmmm

 

Given the French news release, and the fact that I can't configure any French X/290 Ducato (Van or Chassis) with ESP(ESC) as an option, only the addition of Traction+, there's something odd here.

 

Of course, the details for the 2015 range are sparse on the Rapido website, so the circumstances may become more clear when it is updated with the underlying chassis spec.

 

It is, of course, entirely possible that Rapido have ordered a batch for conversion without ESP as a cost-saving exercise, but it would be a bit méchant.

 

;-)

[Rayjsj]

Tracker - 2014-08-09 7:02 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2014-08-09 6:52 PM

I know this because I programmed mine OFF. I hate the things. I should state that mine are the Headlights, not the snazzy little LED strips that the latest models have, I don't mind those, as they do not dazzle. Mine is a 2012 model. Ray

 

Why Ray?

 

If your lights dazzle in the daytime maybe they are out of adjustment and you won't know until MOT time 2015?

 

Surely anything that reduces the risk of collision has to be a good thing?

 

Which is why we tend to travel with side lights on and at worst it costs nowt and does no harm?

 

Rich,

I get annoyed when other drivers drive during Daylight with their Headlights on, (except in poor visibility of course). I cannot just turn on my Sidelights (no facility to, as Derek Says.). So I will possibly get some 'aftermarket' LED front lights at some time, as i don't find them so intrusive. But until then my Headlights stay off in Daylight. (until MOT time). My Headlights don't dazzle at night,as far as I know, no irrate flashes anyway. Being able to program them OFF was a bonus. Ray

 

ps. Perhaps the OP can Program his ON, if he has a Euro 5 ? just a thought.

[Derek Uzzell]

Robinhood - 2014-08-10 2:08 PM

 

...It is, of course, entirely possible that Rapido have ordered a batch for conversion without ESP as a cost-saving exercise, but it would be a bit méchant.

 

;-)

 

That would be odd, but Rapido does (seemingly) obtain chassis from Fiat with no radio. Fitting Pioneer-branded audio equipment has been a Rapido feature for quite a while and, earlier this year, I asked a French Rapido dealer whether, if one did not opt for any of the Pioneer units, a standard Ducato radio would be provided instead at no extra cost. He told me that, if a buyer did not choose one of the Pioneer-based audio options, the motorhome would be delivered to the dealership without a radio.

 

I’ve dug out a quote for a 640 model given to me in March 2014 by a French Rapido dealer. This included a price of €552 for “ESP” and the prices for cab-blinds and entrance-door fly-screen were within one euro of the figures for those options in the 2015 price listing. I might believe that the €550 price for "ESP et TRACTION+” in the 2015 listing has just been cut-and-pasted from the 2014 listing and all it really relates to is TRACTION+, but that wouldn’t explain the apparent lack of an ASR On/Off button on the dashboards of the Rapidos in the advertisements I gave links to.

 

I’ll see if I can get some information about this from the Rapido factory.

 

Another oddity (nothing to do with DRLs) about X290s is that it’s evidently possible to specify Fiat 16” alloy wheels for non-Maxi chassis that would normally have 15” wheels. (This was claimed to be the case before full X290 details were officially released and it’s shown as the final option on the Rapido price-list.) The standard tyre for Ducato motorhomes’ 15” wheels is 215/70 R15C and I understand that X290 motorhome chassis will have Michelin's "Agils Camping” tyres factory-fitted. But, unless a significantly lower-profile tyre is fitted to the 16” wheels, opting for that size wheel will raise the vehicle’s overall gearing. I’m not aware of any tyre suitable for a motorhome that would allow 16” wheels to be fitted to a Ducato in place of 15” wheels and not raise the gearing and I don’t believe that the 16” wheels option is paired with a lower final-drive ratio. Raising the overall gearing is not the greatest idea for a motorhome as it affects the reverse ratio as well as all the forward ratios. As lower-powered coachbuilt Ducato motorhomes (eg. the 130bhp version) have been shown to be unable to reach their maximum speed in 6th gear, raising the overall gearing would result in even more 6th-to-5th gear-changing. I also wonder how raising the original overall gear-ratio by fiiting larger wheels might affect the ‘logic’ of a ComfortMatic gearbox.

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-08-11 8:10 AM

 

That would be odd, but Rapido does (seemingly) obtain chassis from Fiat with no radio.

 

 

....yes, but this is common across the (continental) industry, and a somewhat easier "delete" option than an otherwise standard fit ESP. (and in France, at least, the standard offering for the X/290 chassis cab is "predisposition radio", but no unit)

 

Derek Uzzell - 2014-08-11 8:10 AM

 

Another oddity (nothing to do with DRLs) about X290s is that it’s evidently possible to specify Fiat 16” alloy wheels for non-Maxi chassis that would normally have 15” wheels.

 

...yup - already seen these in the flesh on the first of the 2015 Autocruise 'vans. (Not going to be quite as easy to quickly check whether a 'van is built on the Maxi chassis now ;-) )

[Muswell]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-08-11 8:10 AM

 

 

Another oddity (nothing to do with DRLs) about X290s is that it’s evidently possible to specify Fiat 16” alloy wheels for non-Maxi chassis that would normally have 15” wheels. (This was claimed to be the case before full X290 details were officially released and it’s shown as the final option on the Rapido price-list.) The standard tyre for Ducato motorhomes’ 15” wheels is 215/70 R15C and I understand that X290 motorhome chassis will have Michelin's "Agils Camping” tyres factory-fitted. But, unless a significantly lower-profile tyre is fitted to the 16” wheels, opting for that size wheel will raise the vehicle’s overall gearing. I’m not aware of any tyre suitable for a motorhome that would allow 16” wheels to be fitted to a Ducato in place of 15” wheels and not raise the gearing and I don’t believe that the 16” wheels option is paired with a lower final-drive ratio. Raising the overall gearing is not the greatest idea for a motorhome as it affects the reverse ratio as well as all the forward ratios. As lower-powered coachbuilt Ducato motorhomes (eg. the 130bhp version) have been shown to be unable to reach their maximum speed in 6th gear, raising the overall gearing would result in even more 6th-to-5th gear-changing. I also wonder how raising the original overall gear-ratio by fiiting larger wheels might affect the ‘logic’ of a ComfortMatic gearbox.

 

Do you know if they recalibrate the speedometer to recognise the bigger wheels?

[colin]

Maybe they just use the Maxi diff

[mike19841]

Thanks for all the suggestions although discussions seem to have ranged somewhat wider than anticipated.

 

Looks like a visit to the after market using the link that has been so kindly provided.

[Tracker]

Muswell - 2014-08-11 9:07 AM

 

Do you know if they recalibrate the speedometer to recognise the bigger wheels?

 

 

According to our sat nav our van's speedo is about 5% optimistic at most speeds so maybe bigger wheels and tyres just make the speedo less optimistic, bearing in mind it is theoretically illegal to have a speedo read less that the actual speed?

 

If you know the 16" tyre size it is possible to calclate the rolling circumference and compare it to the 15" tyre.

[Muswell]

Way OT but I hadn't realised the legal requirement for speedo accuracy was so generous. In the UK a speedo can read 110% + 6.25 mph fast but must never read slow...so you could be doing 60 but your speedo could show 72! If you fit a 215/65 tyre you get the same diameter for the 16 inch wheel but if you stuck with the same profile you would be about 3.5% faster, so still within your 5%.

 

I wonder how such a change affects the working of the ECU?

[Billggski]

Saw some very neat DRL's at the Stafford show, they could be at Malvern. £100 and fit into the x250 grill above the spotlights.

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-08-11 8:10 AM

 

Another oddity (nothing to do with DRLs) about X290s is that it’s evidently possible to specify Fiat 16” alloy wheels for non-Maxi chassis that would normally have 15” wheels. (This was claimed to be the case before full X290 details were officially released and it’s shown as the final option on the Rapido price-list.) The standard tyre for Ducato motorhomes’ 15” wheels is 215/70 R15C and I understand that X290 motorhome chassis will have Michelin's "Agils Camping” tyres factory-fitted. But, unless a significantly lower-profile tyre is fitted to the 16” wheels, opting for that size wheel will raise the vehicle’s overall gearing. I’m not aware of any tyre suitable for a motorhome that would allow 16” wheels to be fitted to a Ducato in place of 15” wheels and not raise the gearing and I don’t believe that the 16” wheels option is paired with a lower final-drive ratio. Raising the overall gearing is not the greatest idea for a motorhome as it affects the reverse ratio as well as all the forward ratios. As lower-powered coachbuilt Ducato motorhomes (eg. the 130bhp version) have been shown to be unable to reach their maximum speed in 6th gear, raising the overall gearing would result in even more 6th-to-5th gear-changing. I also wonder how raising the original overall gear-ratio by fiiting larger wheels might affect the ‘logic’ of a ComfortMatic gearbox.

 

225/65 R 16 CP on this year's Autocruise PVCs.

 

;-)