"General failure" warning lamp.

[Brian Kirby]

This is the amber warning light (exclamation mark inside triangle) located on the instrument panel between the speedometer and the fuel gauge.

 

Vehicle is 2017 Euro 6, no AdBlue, 130 PS manual.

 

Took the van for a "walk" this afternoon, and noticed the above was lit after about 3 miles, and stayed lit until we got home, after about a further 15 miles. The van drove absolutely normally: no other warning lights on, no message on the control panel (multi function display, not reconfigurable), no beeps.

 

The light was steady: not flashing (so not airbag).

 

Remaining possible causes (taking account of options fitted): fuel inertia cut off activated, light failure, fuel filter sensor failed, audio system failure, oil pressure sensor failure, water in fuel filter.

 

Got home, looked at above possible causes, and went out to explore. Turned on lights, with and without ignition on (no warning light): all functioning normally. The audio system is aftermarket (van delivered from new with no radio), so discounted that (presumed no interface). Discounted fuel cut-off as van ran perfectly without any hesitancy. Discounted fuel filter as serviced in December, and driven over 100 miles since with light not on.

 

That left low oil pressure or water in fuel. Started engine: all normal, no amber warning light! Blipped throttle, turned lights on and off again, tried brakes, tried hazards. Presume oil pressure normal. Water in diesel? I don't believe in miracle cures!

 

Any suggestions? Many thanks.

 

[Robinhood]

Brian,

 

I have had a single, similar occurrence with the current 'van.

 

The warning light extinguished with an "ignition recycle".

 

A few years ago, having the requisite laptop, I invested in MultiECUscan software and cables, and I was able to check that there were no stored error codes. (It is a well worthwhile investment if you do a good bit of touring).

 

I haven't had any recurrence, nor any other symptoms.

 

You may wish to read the following (go through to the end, as the most relevant stuff is well down the thread).

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/fiat-ducato-waning-light-any-ideas.180886/

 

Deneb, being a poster here as well, may want to add his two pennorth.

 

Edited to add:

 

Read this one as well, Brian

 

https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/476079-starting-procedure-ducato.html

[tonyishuk]

My Fiat throws up an occasional code that appears. I invested in an OBD reader from Amazon.

 

I reset the code and it reappeared some months later. I reset it again and it has not appeared since (18 months plus).

 

I also have a VW that pops up the occasional code, similarly gets reset.

 

To my way of thinking,; some data transmissions from sensors get mixed, leading to a false fault, or the sensor itself is the problem, and not lets forget the Fiat earth strap sagas!

 

Short and sweet, invest in a OBD reader, clear the fault reading, if you can, if the error returns regularly you obviously have a fault that needs rectifying. If not, it’s the Fiat ghost reading making an appearance.

 

http://obdii.pro/en/model/fiat Maybe of use ?

 

Rgds

[onecal]

Oil pressure sensor Brian may be the issue also check all connections under your front swivel seats .All earths may need checking Hopefully you have not a fault with your instrument cluster

[weldted]

Hi Brian, 2019 Euro 6 2.3 150 Comformatic 2620 miles. So far had low oil pressure warning light failure twice, low oil level warning twice, check transmission gear not available. Each time turned engine off on restart no lights, except first low oil pressure warning light failure on the first time stopped to check started up still on, drove 20 miles home slowly. Next time started no light Fiat can't find any faults. Bit concerned as taking van to USA later this year for six months?

[Deneb]

Brian, as it has gone off with a new ignition cycle my inclination would be to just wait and see if it happens again before doing anything else.

 

I had an SRS failure warning when driving about 2 years ago now. About 2 minutes later the warning light and message went off and it has never recurred.

 

If it does come back and you can still find no obvious visible cause, I can recommend the MultiEcuScan software as Robinhood says.

 

The alternative would be to get the van read for fault codes at a dealer, but they normally charge for the privilege - unless you know a friendly independent garage or home mechanic locally with a full systems Fiat scanner?

 

But if the warning lamp has extinguished, you may find there are no codes stored, particularly after a couple more ignition of and on events.

 

I have seen a few reports of a similar issue and a faulty sensor for that warning lamp being declared as the cause though.

 

Just to add, the two links referenced by Robinhood are worth reading, particularly the warning re proper starting procedure. I found that description in a technical service bulletin issued by Fiat. I used to have access to a frozen copy of the online workshop information on a USB pen. Unfortunately the USB pen became corrupted and Fiat had withdrawn support for it in the interim, so I no longer have access to the full information :'(

[Brian Kirby]

Thank you all for the information and links. I'll bear these in mind and monitor what happens next time I start the van, and then decide whether to go further. It is possible I may have fired the starter too soon - I wasn't paying close attention (which is why I can't be sure it had extinguished at that point, but came back on a couple of miles or so down the road), but I usually let the lights go out before doing so.

 

Thanks again.

[onecal]

Good advise but I would have it checked as oil pressure sensor is failing or reported failing quite a lot The job of getting to the sensor is not so easy to replace the offending part

[Deneb]

onecal - 2020-01-05 6:12 PM

 

Good advise but I would have it checked as oil pressure sensor is failing or reported failing quite a lot The job of getting to the sensor is not so easy to replace the offending part

 

I do wonder though, is the failing sensor diagnosis based on a specific DTC to that effect, and if so are the technicians aware of the technical bulletin relating to the oil sensor signal not plausible DTC P250A-64 simply being caused by ignition on-off events in rapid succession or failing to wait for dashboard self test to complete before starting?

 

I have seen several instances of dealer technicians mis-diagnosing easily resolvable issues based on lack of knowledge of or failure to check for relevant TSBs, although not Fiat related!

[Robinhood]

...just for clarity, we need to be sure what "sensor" we are talking about.

 

The Ducato (or at least many models of it) has an oil pressure sensor, and an oil level sensor.

 

The P250A code, AFAIK, refers to the level sensor, not the pressure sensor.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the oil level sensor is designed to work in that interval after turning on when you are waiting for the dash lights to go out (since after you actually start the engine, the oil is being dragged out of the sump, thereby potentially invalidating the reading). Certainly the display only functions when going to "MAR", then "AVV", and I think there is a minimum engine-off interval between active displays.

 

If the ignition is switched rapidly from "off" through "MAR"to "AVV" (without waiting for the warning lights to extinguish at "MAR") then it is feasible that this measurement process is not completed, thereby throwing a fault code indicating an "out of range" value.

 

I know it's only a theory.....but... (I interpret the Fiat training manual as supporting the way it works).

 

The decision provoked me into heading out to the 'van with my laptop for one of my irregular checks - absolutely no fault codes in any of the ECU modules.

:D

[Deneb]

Robinhood - 2020-01-05 8:33 PM

 

...just for clarity, we need to be sure what "sensor" we are talking about.

 

The Ducato (or at least many models of it) has an oil pressure sensor, and an oil level sensor.

 

The P250A code, AFAIK, refers to the level sensor, not the pressure sensor.

 

 

The bulletin however relates to situations where the generic warning light that Brian mentions, has been illuminated for no apparent reason, and the P250A code possibly being present. So in relation to Brian's original query, whichever oil level sensor "might" have caused the generic warning light to activate could be a moot point if it is not actually faulty ;-)

 

ISTR on the latest Euro 6 vehicles, there is yet another dash warning light labelled as an "oil pressure warning lamp failure warning lamp"!!!

[onecal]

I think faulty signals to the ECU can cause problems here which gives incorrect light signals. Sometimes replacing the pressure sensor solves the problem,,,quite a pig of a job. Yes the amber light should be for the oil level but from experence replacing this alone does not fix the issue, Wiring loom also needs to be checked.

I think it would be prudent at this stage to have a proper diagnostic check done which may help to give a little insight into what fault codes it actually puts up (it may not) and take that it may be a serious fault not to be ignored until proved otherwise

Again I would not be too worred about the codes themselves as even an faulty wired reversing camera can sometimes bring up this warning light .

[Cattwg]

I had a similar scenario yesterday. From the days when we had to wait a few seconds for the glow plugs to heat up, I’d fallen into the habit of turning on the ignition, putting my seat belt on and then staring the vehicle. Yesterday for some reason I went from ignition to turn on with no pause. The amber ! in a triangle came on. No apparent problems so I drove the 4 miles home. Used the ‘van today, back to my usual routine and no amber light.

So it would seem that, as suggested on the forum there is a definite “starting procedure” for the Fiats and possibly other modern diesel vehicles.

I shall be more aware in future.

Cattwg :-D

[spospe]

The starting procedure for a Ducato is shown in the driver's handbook at:

 

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/803246/Fiat-Ducato.html?page=3#manual

 

and it does say to wait for the lights to go off before attempting to start.

[onecal]

It is a Generic failure indication which should be accompnied by a decidated message in the display, but I am afraid so many faults are linked to this display light most do not bring anyting up (or fault code)

As I mentioned previously even an incorrectly wired reversing camera can bring it up,,,, One should never overlook a light even if spurious,,,

 

[Deneb]

It is good practice on all modern vehicles to allow the self-check to complete before attempting to start the engine. There are numerous ECUs controlling various functions on vehicles which communicate across a number of networks in the vehicle. These all have to awaken from their sleep or low power state, establish communication and where necessary prepare the vehicle to be started.

 

My old 2002 Mondeo diesel could sometimes be coerced into failing to operate the starter motor and displaying an immobiliser fault warning lamp by attempting to start the engine prematurely. The cause was an implausible pressure signal from the fuel rail sensor preventing the engine from starting. Switching off the ignition, waiting 30 seconds before turning it on again and waiting for the self test to complete always resolved it.

 

Onecal, I understand what you are saying about the warning light, but if as in Brian's case it has so far only appeared once, since extinguished and not recurred, with no obvious faults present. Should the warning light appear again, I would agree that it ought to be investigated. If the lamp has only been triggered once during a single driving cycle and since failed to reappear, the likelihood is that there will not even be any pending fault codes to diagnose at this time.

 

I can only refer back to my mention of the SRS failure warning that occurred on my van, a single episode that lasted at the most 2 minutes during the course of a single journey and that has never occurred since in the following 2 years. Admittedly I had the equipment to check for DTCs (of which there were none) and the capability to check for obvious visible faults, but I would not have visited a dealer for a single intermittent fault warning that apparently resolved itself, only to be relieved of over £100 for the privilege of being told that they could find nothing wrong. Should it have happened again, then I agree it would merit further investigation, but as Brian's warning lamp is not permanently illuminated and repeatable on subsequent drive cycles I would recommend adopting a wait and see approach for now.

[onecal]

I agree 100% and I am sure Brian may be taking this route and hopefully all will be well Sadily it's not always brought up by incorrect starting procedure and in fact with so many have been driving diesels over the years it has become second nature to wait for the glow plug light to go out (in fact some times many wait too long),This has caused concern for many Motorhome owners as the light is generic and can be triggered by so many other faults from fuel filter to a blown bulb. I think this may be a worring point for many an owner as many know it's not always just down to an incorrect starting procedure, it's there to make you aware , to check, even waiting as you say, to see if it comes up again, especially if it has no follow on message.

[Brian Kirby]

I've resurrected this string as I now have what I'm told is the answer. :-)

 

To racap: as in the OP above, this light on the dash (orange triangle) would fail to extinguish following cold start-up. This behaviour first became apparent about a month after the van had its first, two year, service, when we took it for "walkies", some time in mid December last.

 

Once illuminated, it would stay on until the engine was stopped. Turning ignition on and off made no difference, neither did starting and stopping the engine. The light would fail to extinguish when the other dash lamps extinguished, as it should have.

 

However, once the van had been driven a sufficient distance to fully warm it up, if it was then stopped and allowed to stand for half an hour or so, on re-start the light extinguished as normal. No other lights ever stayed on, no warnings ever appeared.

 

The failure to extinguish was not consistent, but always arose following a cold, but never following a hot, start. Given the advice provided in posts above, I had to get the van to the garage with the light on, and let them check the fault codes while the light was illuminated and the engine still running.

 

Then, some time around March/April this year, I became aware that the light had begun to extinguish as it should, and thereafter it continued doing so, so I assumed it had merely been a temporary fault that had rectified itself - until, that is, this Monday when, in preparation for its first MoT, I was going around checking that all the lights were functioning - for which, turn on the ignition.

 

Now, one last thing. Our drive slopes gently up from the road. Up until the light began extinguishing I had been parking it nose up, but at around that time I had decided to reverse it up the drive, as it was then easier to load, and we were toying with a few days away (eventually taken in Somerset in September). Having emptied it after that trip, following a further drive around outing, I reverted to parking nose up as less water the runs down into the windscreen scuttle drain. This, it seems, may have relevance.

 

Checked lights, returned to cab and, lo and behold, General failure light still on. The MoT had been booked for today (Wednesday), so I called the garage and advised them that the General Failure light problem had again arisen, and asked if, while they had the van for the MoT (and assuming the light failed to extinguish when starting up for my trip to them), they would see what the code reader told them. They would, it did, and they did! :-)

 

The result from their code reader was "Fault P250 A/3 = Oil level Sensor Calibration = download latest software and install as required". The technician said it was apparently due to corrupted software, and the update was intended to fix the problem. He added that they had previously updated several with the same fault. Cost: £78 + VAT! So, nose up, sensor thinks low oil level, nose down, sensor happy? Really? Possible, but what of vans parked on "proper" hills??

 

So part of this is for anyone with a similar problem - in case it is worrying them. Our van is a Fiat "bitsa" (Euro6 without Addblue, with some components X250, and others X290) 2.3L 130PS, six speed manual, on "Maxi" chassis. Build date is 29/03/2017.

 

The other part of this is to ask if anyone has a view on why I should be expected to pay for this software update?

 

The explanation I was given was that it is now out of warranty, which is true, but it seemed to me that a software update to rectify an acknowledged fault should not in any case be deemed a warranty issue. This is surely a matter of a manufacturer remedying his own faulty software, which should be at his expense, in the same way that other defects are remedied, either as recalls or as other, non safety critical, service modifications. So I can't see any justification for the charge. Anyone agree? If so, I'll take it up with either Fiat or the garage.

[Deneb]

I agree, and would take it up with Fiat. It's not as if you asked for the newest software to be downloaded just because there's an update. You had a demonstrable issue, for which the software update is apparently the recognised solution. Therefore, whether in warranty or not, the "fault" must have existed from new (or whenever the software was last updated post manufacture, which is most likely never) so I would argue that it's a manufacturing defect.

 

Good to get to the bottom of it though!

[twbm]

99.9% sure this isn't relevant, but because of the 0.01% ....

 

Equivalent light came on my Skoda Octavia ... long story short, it was telling me that low air pressure had been detected in a tyre, but there's no specific light for that.

[rayc]

It is a good thing that a software update sorted it as replacing a duff oil level sensor is a major job involving getting behind the alternator /exhaust / dpf and removing it from the block. Very fiddly and no room to work, the subframe may have to be removed.

[Derek Uzzell]

A GOOGLE-search on "ducato fault P250 A/3” produces the following results

 

https://tinyurl.com/y5u2mfkq

 

Most interesting, perhaps, is this November 2017 Fiat Forum thread

 

https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/455379-euro-6-amber-oil-can-warning-light.html

 

I’d want a credible technical explanation of what the purpose of the “latest software” was. If its purpose is to correct a Fiat-recognised problem with the original software (eg. some sort of ‘coding’ fault) then I certainly would not expect a Ducato owner to have to shell out to have the revised software installed. If it replaces software that has become corrupted during usage of the vehicle, there MIGHT be some justification for charging if the Ducato is outside the warranty period.

 

I don’t think Brian has said whether the garage (presumably a Fiat Professional agent) that would install the latest software normally serviced the motorhome. When the Fiat Professional agent at Gloucester has serviced my 2015 Ducato, they’ve installed software revisions as part of the exercise without any prompting from me and cleared error codes at no cost.

[Brian Kirby]

rayc - 2020-11-25 6:01 PM

 

It is a good thing that a software update sorted it as replacing a duff oil level sensor is a major job involving getting behind the alternator /exhaust / dpf and removing it from the block. Very fiddly and no room to work, the subframe may have to be removed.

I do not yet know that the update has sorted the problem, because it has literally only just been installed, and the van was still well warmed when I started it to drive home. It will need to be cold started a number of times to prove that.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-11-25 6:31 PM

 

A GOOGLE-search on "ducato fault P250 A/3” produces the following results

 

https://tinyurl.com/y5u2mfkq

 

Most interesting, perhaps, is this November 2017 Fiat Forum thread

 

https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/455379-euro-6-amber-oil-can-warning-light.html

 

I’d want a credible technical explanation of what the purpose of the “latest software” was. If its purpose is to correct a Fiat-recognised problem with the original software (eg. some sort of ‘coding’ fault) then I certainly would not expect a Ducato owner to have to shell out to have the revised software installed. If it replaces software that has become corrupted during usage of the vehicle, there MIGHT be some justification for charging if the Ducato is outside the warranty period.

 

I don’t think Brian has said whether the garage (presumably a Fiat Professional agent) that would install the latest software normally serviced the motorhome. When the Fiat Professional agent at Gloucester has serviced my 2015 Ducato, they’ve installed software revisions as part of the exercise without any prompting from me and cleared error codes at no cost.

You're right, Derek, I didn't. Due to age and mileage, the van has only been serviced once, last December, by the same Fiat Professional garage. This was the first MoT. The technician spoke of corrupted software, though the print-out speaks only of "oil level sensor calibration". The implication is that the latest software is the cure for (presumably) mis-calibration of the sensor. My impression was that the technician, while perfectly competent, had merely plugged the van in, got the fault code, and followed Fiats instructions to download and install the software to fix the problem.

[Brian Kirby]

Deneb - 2020-11-25 4:09 PM

 

I agree, and would take it up with Fiat. It's not as if you asked for the newest software to be downloaded just because there's an update. You had a demonstrable issue, for which the software update is apparently the recognised solution. Therefore, whether in warranty or not, the "fault" must have existed from new (or whenever the software was last updated post manufacture, which is most likely never) so I would argue that it's a manufacturing defect.

 

Good to get to the bottom of it though!

I have no notification of an earlier update when the van was serviced last December. As the fault only appeared after that service I suspect that for the previous two years use the fault was not present. It does point to some event during the service that might have corrupted the software, though reference to the "latest" software implies a software change from that originally installed. He also reported having to rectify "several" vans with the same update. All I actually asked was if they could plug the van in to read the codes, rather than request new software. The upgrade seems to be the logical response, so I have no complaint about that, but I thought charging me to fix Fiat's apparently defective software a bit cheeky! Just made me wonder of the oil level sensor design had been changed, and the software was for a different version?