A Frame fines

[hymer1942]

Hi All, Is there anyone out there who was fined in Spain last year or so for towing a car on an A Frame.

 

Please not some one you know or a friend, or someone you have heard about but just if YOU have been stopped and fined. I have been stopped but not fined, it would just be nice to get past the Tales.

 

Barrie

[hymer1942]

Morning all, Just about what I had expected, up to now 146 views for no fines. Barrie

[Derek Uzzell]

As you were seeking feedback from a forum with a small active membership and specified that respondents to your inquiry a) towed with an A-frame, b) visited Spain while doing so and c) had been fined, the likelihood of you getting a 'hit' seem pretty small.

 

There was a lot of discussion about this on the MHF forum towards the end of 2010 which you might want to look at (if you haven't already done so) and, as the MHF forum's active membership is much larger than this one's, you might try asking on that forum to see if you have more luck.

 

Views don't mean much. I don't A-frame tow but I've viewed your posting more than once out of general nosiness. I tend to view anything that MIGHT interest me and, unless it's immediately apparent from the thread's title that I won't be interested in it (eg. "Vets near Calais?") I'll need to view a thread at least once to decide whether or not it does interest me. I'm sure other forum members act similarly.

 

(I've a feeling the same inquiry was made before on this forum, but I can find any sign of it. If that's so, then I think that didn't get any response either.)

[hymer1942]

Hi Derrick and thanks for your reply, but what you do get on here and elsewhere is lots of what I term {Rubbish ] people who here things third hand etc. A great example of this was the [ Gassing ] saga.

what I am trying to prove if you take the hearsay out you are left with very little. Barrie

[BGD]

This might help understanding a bit, so just to repeat, once again:

 

The law in Spain is perfectly clear on this point.

 

Towing a vehicle with another vehicle is specifically forbidden by national law here.

It is "Ley Nacional".........that means it applies right across the country, and is not amendable by any of the semi autonomous regions.

 

 

 

There are no ifs, no buts; the law here is not muddy or unclear.

 

The law says that you CANNOT tow any vehicle with another vehicle on any Spanish road.

(I heard that exactly the same restriction applies in Portugal too - but I DO NOT have first hand knowledge of the law there, so this could be simply hearsay)

 

 

 

Now, that said, you have to understand a bit about the Spanish peoples (and Police) approach to obeying/enforcing laws.

There are lots of laws here in Spain which were/are observed more in the breach than obedience.

 

The Spanish do not tow any vehicle with another (eg in the case of breakdown) because this no-tow law has been in place for decades....and every vehicle insurance contract here always automatically includes provision for a "grua" (one of those flat-bed breakdown recovery vehicles) service if you break down anywhere in the country.

 

So far as I'm aware utterly no-one in Spain sells/fits "A-frames" at all, on the basis that there's absolutely no market for them here, as using them would be illegal.

What the Spanish motor homers do if they have a car with their MH, is carry the car on a "proper" trailer. That IS perfectly legal across Spain (subject to all the rules about lights, brakes, max weights etc....)

 

Now, so far as "foreigners" are concerned, Traffico (the Guardia Civil traffic Police who enforce road laws everywhere outside of towns/villages) used to be fairly relaxed about minor "technical breaches" of Spanish traffic laws.........'cos of language difficulties, paperwork reading difficulties, a lack of knowledge about legalities in other EU countries; and also because they were usually tasked with concentrating on far more serious crimes like drink-driving, no insurance (very common here, as insurance costs are very high).............so I'm guessing that in reality almost no foreign A-frame car towing motorhomer has been stopped/fined etc in years gone by; just as no foreigner has been stopped/fined for not having a red and white chevron thingy attached to their push bikes that overhang the rear of their MH.

 

BUT, and here's the kicker............things have recently changed. Really changed.

 

Spain is in deep financial poo.

The Government has implemented a wide range of austerity/cost-cutting measures since 2010.

One of them is that from 2011 onwards the Guardia Civil Traffco nationally must, instead of being largely funded by general taxation, be SELF-FUNDING.

The only way they can raise the massive funds to pay for their costs is by?

Yep. Issuing fines.

 

The fines money doesn't go straight to them, it goes into the general treasury "pot" but the Hacienda (the Spanish Inland Revenue) are now keeping account of all such fines, to offset them against the costs of the Guardia Civil.

Now, Mr Guardia Civil Traffico Officer knows very clearly that if he doesn't maximise his revenue generating ability, either he or his fellow officers are gonna get made redundant/lose their grace-and-favour barrack accommodation/lose their pension, etc etc.

Therefore he and all his fellow officers have embraced this get-a-lot-more-money-in necessity with what can only be described as overwhelming enthusiasm..........more and more day by day.

 

Often they now carry card-swipe machines - if you get nicked for speeding/crossing a solid white line/not wearing seatbelt/wearing flip-flops instead of "proper" footwear, they want the fine money off you there and then.

If you ain't got it, your vehicle is impounded and you get taken to a cashpoint, or home, in order to get the dosh.

Also the fines have gone up a lot. Expect 100 euros or more for minor traffic infringements.

 

 

 

Now, I have NOT heard of any Brit getting done/having their car impounded this year for towing a car on an A-frame. But then most of the motorhome forums I read are Spanish, and they wouldn't have heard, 'cos they don't do it.

All I can tell you as a fact is the Traffico are desperate to gather cash in, and that it is clearly, and well-known, as illegal to do A-frame car towing anywhere in Spain. It's of course also bloody obvious if you are breaking the Spanish law by doing it.

 

So, as in previous years, it's a gamble to do it here. But the risk of getting nicked for that, or other driving offences, has gone up a lot since Jan 2011.

 

Still probably a hundred times less likely to get nicked here for summat than back in radar-trap/camera/ANPR Big Brother blighty; but I guess it's a lot more likely now than ever it used to be.

 

In the end of course it's totally up to you to decide............

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

Funny enough on your "direct crossing to Spain" thread. there is a discussion regards A frames...

 

With all the chatter re this topic it would be pretty foolish IMO to assume people are not getting fined and told to unhook..Simply based on lack of response to this thread

 

takes your lovely E Bike and relax! lol.

[Crawf]

Hi Barrie

Apologies in advance for not sticking strictly to the remit. There was a similar enquiry in MMM letters in May asking much the same thing. I recall that the person wanted evidence to somehow clarify the legislation as there appeared to be much variation in interpreting the legality of towing with an A frame and moreover there seemed to be a range of penalties that could be imposed.

My understanding on the matter is that in Spain if you take out vehicle insurance there is a built in charge for the 'Grua Club' as it is illegal to tow another vehicle yourself unless of course it is on a properly registered trailer. So I think when the Guardia Civil or Police Municipal see a vehicle being towed by a camper in this way, they don't regard A frames as exceptional and either let it pass on with or without comment because it is a tourist situation or fine the person because technically it is an offence. In other words, whether or not we think braked A frames are as safe as towing trailers, A frames, I suspect, are not mentioned in their traffic manual - at least not for private use.

As to trying to get some recognition and approval for towing with A frames, Spain is notoriously slow to comply with even the most major EC legislation and on top of that fact there is the additional difficulty of the autonomous regions who then have to instigate any changes that are endorsed by central government. The reason for the variation in levels of penalty for towing is because whereas the autonomous regions are required to uphold the law they are entitled to set their own charges.

Hope this is of some help.

Crawf

 

[BGD]

I'll include the whole Directive document for you, but the bit that stresses that motorhomes are specifically prohibited from towing any other vehicle (other than on a proper trailer) on any Spanish roads is in Section 8, near to the bottom of the Directive.

 

I got this (in Spanish) a while ago from a Spanish motorhome forum, who got it from the Guardia Civil Traffico Headquarters. This is the actual Spanish law with regard to motorhomes that Guardia Civil Traffico officers are charged with enforcing.

I've translated it into English:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Instrucción 08/V-74 (In English)

 

INSTRUCTION 08/V-74 FROM THE SPANISH DIRECTOR GENERAL OF TRAFFIC RELATIVE TO MOTORHOMES

 

MINISTRY OF INTERIOR

 

 

 

Instruction 08/V-74

 

The steady growth that has been experienced in recent years in the use of motorhomes in Spain together with the lack of specific regulation of some aspects related to this activity, has led to the adoption at the plenary session of the Senate for a motion urging the Government to take the necessary measures to support the development of this practice and regulate the use of motorhomes.

 

For this reason, the Director General of Traffic has recognised the need to collect and interpret in a single document, all regulatory aspects that relate to motorhomes, and to include in traffic and motor vehicle legislation.

 

1. - CONCEPT

 

Annex II of the General Rules of Vehicles, approved by Royal Decree 2822/1998, of December 23, defines a motor home as "a special purpose vehicle built, including living accommodation, and containing at least the following equipment: seats and table, beds and bunk beds that can be converted into seats, kitchen and wardrobes or the like. This equipment will be permanently fixed or attached to the living compartment. The seats and the table can be designed to be easily disassembled. "

 

This and other definitions of “vehicles” are the result of the disappearance of any existing guidelines on the matter. Specifically the Commission Directive 2001/116/EC of 20 December 2001 by which technical progress is adapted to Ruling 70/156/EEC on the approximation of laws of Member States concerning the approval of motor vehicles and trailers, paragraph 5.1 of section A of Annex II refers to a motorhome as "any special category M vehicle manufactured to include accommodation with the following minimum equipment: seats and table, beds that may be converted from the seats, kitchen and wardrobes. This equipment will be firmly fixed or attached to the habitable zone, although the table may be designed to be easily removable."

 

Category M vehicles are "motor vehicles with at least four wheels, designed and manufactured for the transportation of passengers" and although the Ruling (116/2001/CEE) does not say so explicitly, it can be inferred that if having a maximum capacity for eight seats (excluding the driver), we are referring to M1 vehicles. However, section 1 of section C of Annex II Instruction 2001/116/EC, referring to the types of bodywork of passenger cars (M1), mentions the following: AA saloon, AB saloon with a rear hatch, AC shooting break, AD coupé, AE Convertible and AF Multi Use, not referring to Motorhomes in the said paragraph 1, but does so in paragraph 5, within another category of vehicles called "special vehicles" (1).

 

Therefore, allowing that it deals with vehicles of category M1, the body/coachwork is not included in the category for passenger cars but in the category of so-called "special vehicles", which is not surprising since they are built on the chassis of commercial vehicles used commonly for the manufacture of vans and light trucks, where the length typically ranges between 5.50m. and 8m, the average height is around 3m. and the maximum permissible weight is very frequently 3,500 kg, and in some cases even more, characteristics that have nothing to do with the usual passenger car, and which affects manoeuvrability, braking distance, behaviour, turning, etc.

 

Therefore, notwithstanding the existence of a series of vans, where the interior has been conditioned with accommodation, commonly known as "Camper", it can be concluded that motorhomes are normally "special purpose vehicles of category M1", whose existence is referred to, among others, in Article 2.2 of the Instruction 2001/116/EC of the commission, thus are different to passenger cars and therefore worthy of specific regulation in some precise areas such as in determining the maximum speed limits on roads outside of town. However, in other aspects such as circulation, stopping and parking, motorhomes are governed by the rules applicable in general to all motor vehicles.

 

2. - MAXIMUM SPEED

 

Article 48.1 a) General Rules of Circulation, approved by Royal Decree 1428/2003, of November 21 establishes the speed limits for motor vehicles on main roads out of towns under the following terms:

 

A) Motor Vehicles

 

1.On motorways and freeways (autovias): passenger cars and motorcycles 120km/h; buses, vehicles derived from passenger cars and adapted hybrid vehicles, 100km/h; lorries, articulated vehicles, tractor lorries, vans and passenger cars with trailers of up to 750 kg., 90 Km/h; remaining passenger cars with trailer: 80 km/h.

 

2.On conventional roads marked as freeways (autovias) and on the rest of conventional roads as long as these have a hard shoulder of 1.50m. or more in width, or more than one lane for one of the directions of traffic: passenger cars and motorcycles, 100 Km/h; buses, vehicles derived from passenger cars and adapted hybrid vehicles, 90 Km/h; lorries, articulated vehicles, tractor lorries, vans and passenger cars with trailers 80km/h.

 

3.On the rest of roads out of town: passenger cars and motorcycles 90 Km/h: buses, vehicles derived from passenger cars and adapted hybrid vehicles, 80km/h, lorries, articulated vehicles, tractor lorries, vans and passenger cars with trailers 70km/h.

 

4.On any kind of road where circulation of such vehecles is permitted: three wheel vehicles and quads, 70 km/h.

 

As motorhomes are “special category M1 vehicles" and different to passenger cars, it is considered justified not to apply the same speed limits, outside of town, as passenger cars, but to apply the speed limits for other vehicles of category M (destined for the transport of passengers), which results in the following speed limits:

 

- On motorways and freeways .................................................. ............. 100 Km/h

 

- On conventional roads marked as roads for motor vehicles and roads with a hard shoulder of at least 1,50m. width or with more than one lane for one of the directions of traffic .................................................. .................................................. ..... 90 Km/h

 

- On the rest of roads, out of town .................................................. .......... 80 Km/h

 

The above speed limits apply to motorhomes which are driven without trailers, classified on their ITV card with the following codes:

- 3148 (mixed vehicle/accommodation)

- 3200 (unspecified motorhome with MMA less than or equal to 3,500 kg.)

- 3248 (motorhome with accommodation with MMA less than or equal to 3,500 kg.)

 

Motorhomes classified with codes:

- 3300 (unspecified motorhome with MMA over 3,500 Kg.)

- 3348 (motorhome with accommodation with MMA over 3,500 Kg.)

- 2448 (Van with accommodation)

will be governed by the same speed limits as for lorries (on account of their higher maximum permissible weight ( MMA) and other vans; thus their speed limits are 90 Km/h on motorways and freeways, and 80 km/h on conventional roads.

 

On urban roadways, regardless of the classification code, motorhomes will be subject to the general speed limit for all vehicles of 50km/h, as stipulated in Article 50 of the General Traffic Regulations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. - STOPPING AND PARKING

 

Under the heading "Stopping and parking," the General Traffic Regulations regulate in Chapter VIII (Articles 90 to 94), the rules applicable to these manoeuvres, regarding places where these manoeuvres can be made, method and form of execution, position of vehicle, Municipal Ordinance and prohibited places, which must be observed by all vehicles in general.

 

3.1 urban roadways

 

Regarding places where stopping and parking in urban streets should be carried out, Article 90.2 of the General Traffic Regulations indicate in the second paragraph what should be observed in effect of the provisions of the ordinances decreed by the Municipal Authorities, in connection with which Article 93 states:

 

1. The regime of stopping and parking in urban streets will be regulated by municipal ordinance, and the necessary measures may be taken to prevent the obstruction of traffic, including time limits for the duration of parking or stopping, as well as the precise corrective measures, including the clamping or towing of the vehicle when a valid parking ticket is not displayed which authorises parking in zones limited by time or exceed the time limit granted and until the identity of the driver can be ascertained.

 

2. In no event may the municipal ordinance oppose, alter, distort, or cause confusion with the precepts of this regulation.

 

One of the most frequent complaints made before the Traffic Department by users of motorhomes is the prohibition to park which is applied to these vehicles, in part or in entirety, on the urban streets and which some municipalities incorporate into their ordinances.

 

These regulations are made under Article 7 of the articles of the Law on Traffic, Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety, approved by Royal Decree 339/1990 of March 2, which give municipalities a series of competencies, within that law, including:

 

 

b) The regulation by Municipal Traffic Ordinance on the use of urban roads, making compatible the fair distribution of parking among all users, with the necessary flow of traffic, as well as the establishment of limited parking, to ensure the rotation of parking, ..”

 

Therefore, in the opinion of the General Director of Traffic it is indisputable that the exclusion of certain users must be necessarily motivated and based on reasonable objections such as the external dimensions of the vehicle or the maximum permissible weight (MMA) of the vehicle but not by use of subjective reasons such as: possible uncivilised behaviour by some users such as noise at night, dumping of garbage or waste water onto the public road, monopolization of public space by erecting structures and furnishings or other situations of abuse against which local authorities have effective legal tools to be used in a non-discriminatory manner against all violators, whether users of motorhomes or any other type of vehicle.

 

Motorhome users are permitted to carry out manoeuvres of stopping and parking in the same conditions and with the same limitations as any other vehicle.

 

With regard to the mode and manner of implementation of stopping and parking, Article 91 of the General Traffic Regulations states that these exercises "should be made so that the vehicle does not hamper the circulation of traffic nor is a risk to other users the road, especially observing the positioning of the vehicle and avoiding that the vehicle is able to move in the absence of the driver.

 

As to the positioning of the vehicle, the cited Article 92 of the General Traffic Regulations state:

 

"1. Stopping and parking will be conducted by placing the vehicle in parallel to the kerb of the street or roadway. As an exception, an alternative positioning will be permitted when the characteristics of the street or roadway or other circumstances so warrant.

 

2. Any driver who stops or parks the vehicle must do so in a way that allows a maximum use of the remaining space available.

 

3. In the case of a motor vehicle or motorcycle, when the driver has to abandon the vehicle, the following rules should be observed, where applicable:

a) Stop the engine and disconnect the ignition and, if leaving the vehicle, take the necessary precautions to prevent its unauthorized use.

b) Engage the hand-brake.

c) In a vehicle equipped with gearbox, leave the first gear engaged if parked on an upward slope, and the reverse gear engaged if parked on downward slope, or, in the parking position if automatic

d) When the vehicle is superior to 3,500 kilograms of maximum permissible weight (MMA), a bus or coach or a combination of vehicles, and when stopping or parking is conducted in a place with a marked slope, the driver must also use proper wheel blocks; stones, bricks or other items not specifically intended for this use cannot be used, nor by resting one of the wheels on the kerb of the pavement, nor by inclining the wheels towards the centre of the road on upward slopes nor outwards on downward slopes. The wheel blocks must be removed from the road after use and prior to driving away.

 

 

The General Traffic Regulations do not establish any other conditions for stopping or parking a vehicle, so, therefore the General Directorate of Traffic believes that while any vehicle is parked properly, without exceeding markings on the delimitation of the parking space, nor exceeds the time permitted (if any), it is irrelevant whether the occupants are inside the vehicle or not, and thus motorhomes are no exception, so long as any activity or occupancy in the interior does not extand to the exterior by the setting up of elements which surpass the perimeter of the vehicle such as stalls, awnings, levelling devices, stabilizing devices, etc.

 

3.2 intercity routes (Highways)

 

Article 90.1 of the General Traffic Regulations defines the places where stopping and parking should be carried out on intercity routes noting that this should be done as far away from the roadway, on the right hand side, leaving part of the hard shoulder free for transit.

 

In general, on motorways and highways it is forbidden to carry out manoeuvres of stopping and parking for all vehicles, except in areas specially assigned for these manoeuvres.

 

The General Traffic Regulations, Article 91, on stopping and parking on intercity routes concerning the method and manner of implementation are already covered in the previous point, as well as the considerations in relation to parking in urban streets and the presence of people inside a vehicle correctly parked, without prejudice to the possibility of parking in areas of service stations or on private land where other conditions can be agreed with the owners.

 

Other concepts in some way associated with the parking of motorhomes, such as camping and overnight stays are not included in the rule on circulation of motor vehicles and road safety, therefore, this agency cannot pronounce on the definition or on the implications.

 

 

 

4. - SEAT-BELT USE AND RESTRAINT DEVICES

 

Seat belts or other approved restraint systems, properly fastened by the driver and passengers of motor homes in both urban and intercity routes must be used.

 

Failure to meet this obligation by certain people depending on their size and age to match the following requirements:

 

1. - Front seats: It is forbidden to circulate with minors under twelve years of age in the front seats unless they use devices approved for that purpose. Exceptionally, when the height of the minor is equal to, or in excess of, 135 cm, children of twelve years may use as such a device the same seat belt for adults that are equipped in the front seats.

 

2 .- Other seats: People whose height reaches 135 cm and does not exceed 150 cm may use either an approved restraint system adapted to their height and weight or seat belts for adults that are equipped in the these seats.

 

3 .- In motorhomes that are not equipped with approved safety devices specially adapted to the size and weight of the users, children under three years of age will not be permitted to travel and those older than three years that have failed to reach the 135-centimeter, can not take a front seat.

 

The rules as set out completely exclude the possibility of occupying the beds or bunks of a motorhome whilst in circulation, due to the obvious risk to the occupants in the event of sudden braking, collision or rollover, but you can occupy seats equipped with approved retention systems, provided that the number of people travelling in the vehicle, either in the cockpit or in the living area, does not exceed the legally permitted places that are recorded in the documentation of the vehicle.

 

5. - EQUIPMENT

 

The minimum equipment which a motorhome should carry, will be in accordance with Annex XII of the General Rules of Vehicle, as follows: One set of replacement light bulbs, in prime condition and the necessary tools to change the light bulbs; two portable, red, triangle devices to forewarn of danger; a spare wheel or a temporary wheel with the necessary tools required to change the wheel or an alternative system, which offers sufficient guarantee for the mobility of the vehicle.

 

Likewise, when drivers and/or passengers leave the vehicle and occupy the road or the hard shoulder on intercity routes a high-visibility reflective vest, certified according to the Royal Decree 1407/1992, of November 20, must be used.

 

6. - TECHNICAL INSPECTION (ITV Testing)

 

According to Royal Decree 711/2006, of June 9, in which certain royal decrees relating to the ITV inspection of vehicles and vehicle spares and parts and the approval of vehicles, has been modified, therefore the General Vehicle Regulations, approved by royal decree 2822/1998 of December 23, the following frequency of inspection applies to motorhomes:

Age of vehicle:

- Up to four years: exempt.

- More than four years: every two years.

- More than ten years: annual

 

 

7. – SERVICE AREAS OR REST AREAS

 

These are facilities designed specifically to service or host motorhomes providing a range of necessary services for these vehicles, primarily: parking, drinking water supply and place to empty deposits.

 

Unlike Camp Sites, service or host areas provide the physical space strictly necessary to park the vehicle and can be publicly or privately owned.

 

There are about 60 such facilities in Spain, for which, through the motion by the full Senate on May 9, 2006, the Government was urged to create a traffic road sign within the road signal service area.

 

The General Directorate of Traffic believes that, without prejudice to the future design and inclusion in the official catalogue of traffic road signs of a specific design indicating the location of a service or host area for motor homes, the current signal S-122 "other services” in the official catalogue of traffic signs added to Annex I of the General Rules of Circulation allows this need to be satisfied by including a simple pictogram.

 

 

 

 

8. - AUXILIARY TRANSPORT VEHICLES

 

It is very common for motorhomes to transport auxiliary vehicles, usually bicycles or a motorcycle or a moped of small cylinder capacity. This practice is authorised provided an approved cycle carrier or platform for this purpose is used and when this overhangs the perimeter of the motorhome, the following conditions are met in accordance with the provisions of Articles 15 of the General Rules of Circulation:

 

a. If it protrudes from the projection in plant of the motorhome, at the rear, up to 10% of its length and if only one vehicle (indivisible load), 15%.

 

b. All appropriate precautions should be taken to prevent damage or hazard to other road users, and the protruding element should be protected to minimize damage by possible rubbing against it or collision.

 

c. If a carrier, it should be marked by the signal V-20 referred to in Article 173 and whose features are set out in Annex XI of the General Rules of vehicles. This signal is placed at the rear of the cargo so as to constantly be perpendicular to the axis of the vehicle.

 

Consultations have also been made on the possibility of a motorhome being allowed to tow a car; but that possibility is prohibited by Article 9.3 of the General Rules of vehicles that prohibits the circulation of a motor vehicle dragging another, except when it is damaged or broken down and cannot be towed by another vehicle specifically intended for that purpose, in which case it is allowed only to tow to the nearest town or village where it can be detained without hindering the traffic, and always provided they are not travelling on a motorway or highway.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, the circulation of a combination composed of a motor vehicle and a trailer or semi trailer on which another vehicle is transported, is allowed if the combination meets the conditions for driving on public roads and is approved according to Directives 70/156/EEC and 94/20/EC and also does not exceed the maximum permitted length for these combinations which is that of 18.75 meters for trailers and 16.50 meters for semi trailers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be made public for general knowledge.

 

Madrid, Jan. 28, 2008

 

THE DIRECTOR GENERAL

 

Pere Navarro Olivella

 

TO BE DISTRIBUTED TO ALL UNITS OF THE AGENCY

__________________

[Guest pelmetman]

Thanks for the heads up Bruce on the clamp down, I'll have to order one of those reflective board thingy's;-)

[vindiboy]

So Barrie what do you think, is it worth the risk ? well done BGD super post.

[hymer1942]

Hi all and thanks for the replies, yes Malc I will be taking the car. I would just like to add Spain need the tourist more than a few fines for A frames. And again its back to what is kegal in your country of origin. Barrie. PS still no one on here who has been fined.

[colin]

hymer1942 - 2011-09-27 6:10 PM

 

Hi all and thanks for the replies, yes Malc I will be taking the car. I would just like to add Spain need the tourist more than a few fines for A frames. And again its back to what is kegal in your country of origin. Barrie. PS still no one on here who has been fined.

 

Try this, start a thread asking who has been fined for using a mobile phone whilst driving. I would guess you will get no replies confirming this, but we all have seen people using mobiles whilst driving and the government claim to have issued thousands of fines.

[BGD]

hymer1942 - 2011-09-27 6:10 PM

 

Hi all and thanks for the replies, yes Malc I will be taking the car. I would just like to add Spain need the tourist more than a few fines for A frames. And again its back to what is kegal in your country of origin. Barrie. PS still no one on here who has been fined.

 

 

 

Hi Barrie - just in case there's still somehow some ambiguity in your mind about the laws here despite what I wrote earlier...........please be clear that it's got nothing whatsoever to do with "what is legal in your country of origin".

It is illegal to tow a car behind your motorhome via and A-frame on any road in Spain.

That is the law in Spain. It matters not whether you can or cannot do so legally in any other country. You are breaking the law of Spain if you do so in Spain.

If you drive on Spanish roads, the Guardia expect you to obey Spanish law........and you are liable to a very hefty fine and/or impounding of your car if they decide to stop you for breaking that law.

 

Now, whether you decide to take that gamble and A-frame tow illegally is of course entirely up to you. But if you decide to do so here in Spain, please do not do so thinking in error that you are somehow not committing a road traffic offence here.

 

The issue I guess is simply whether you think the new, nationwide Guardia Traffico unprecedented blitz on drivers across the country will affect you; ie what are the chances that you'll be stopped, and if so whether you can afford to pay the fines on the spot , and how you'll then get your car separately (driven) out of Spain after it's release from impounding.....but only after the fines are confirmed by Guardia to the local Pound as paid.

 

Please be aware everyone that all of these Traffico vehicle inspections, documentation checks, offence notifications, penalty fining, impounding documentation and release documentation procedures are of course conducted, verbally and in writing, entirely in the language of this country.........in Spanish.

 

For any first-timers coming to Spain, please also be aware also that the Police and Guardia here carry big truncheons, and guns. Very big and very real guns.

And they do not mess about having to be all nice and polite like the hamstrung politically-correct Police now have to be in the UK. They are used to being obeyed, and they WILL use force to back up an instruction that you do not obey.

If a Spanish Police Officer or Guardia Civil officer tells you to do something, my very strong advice would be to do it; immediately, politely, smiling and without argument, and certainly without any sudden movements, or showing any sort of aggression at all to them.

If you do lose your rag with them and start shouting/being aggressive, you really WILL be going to hospital before you then go on to jail.

 

Just my personal views.

 

[Rayjsj]

Crawf - 2011-09-27 12:10 PM

 

Hi Barrie

Apologies in advance for not sticking strictly to the remit. There was a similar enquiry in MMM letters in May asking much the same thing. I recall that the person wanted evidence to somehow clarify the legislation as there appeared to be much variation in interpreting the legality of towing with an A frame and moreover there seemed to be a range of penalties that could be imposed.

My understanding on the matter is that in Spain if you take out vehicle insurance there is a built in charge for the 'Grua Club' as it is illegal to tow another vehicle yourself unless of course it is on a properly registered trailer. So I think when the Guardia Civil or Police Municipal see a vehicle being towed by a camper in this way, they don't regard A frames as exceptional and either let it pass on with or without comment because it is a tourist situation or fine the person because technically it is an offence. In other words, whether or not we think braked A frames are as safe as towing trailers, A frames, I suspect, are not mentioned in their traffic manual - at least not for private use.

As to trying to get some recognition and approval for towing with A frames, Spain is notoriously slow to comply with even the most major EC legislation and on top of that fact there is the additional difficulty of the autonomous regions who then have to instigate any changes that are endorsed by central government. The reason for the variation in levels of penalty for towing is because whereas the autonomous regions are required to uphold the law they are entitled to set their own charges.

Hope this is of some help.

Crawf

 

Just another point , a trailer bought in the UK cannot be 'Registered' , it shares the same registration no. as the towing vehicle. There is NO way of separately registering a trailer or Caravan. SO, why does this seem to cause such a fuss in Europe ?? It is NOT illegal in the UK for Foreign registered vehicles to show a Differant registration plate on a towed trailer or caravan from the towing vehicle.

After all !! doesn't the EU constitution say that 'if a vehicle is legal in it's country of origin (within the EU) then it is legal THROUGHOUT the EU ' ? If 'Braked A-Frames' were 'made legal' in the UK properly by a Court case, a precedent would be set. Then 'They' Braked A-Frames would be legal for UK Motorhomers to tow throughout the EU (including Spain). otherwise integration is a farce. Ray

[Rayjsj]

BGD - 2011-09-27 9:50 PM

 

hymer1942 - 2011-09-27 6:10 PM

 

Hi all and thanks for the replies, yes Malc I will be taking the car. I would just like to add Spain need the tourist more than a few fines for A frames. And again its back to what is kegal in your country of origin. Barrie. PS still no one on here who has been fined.

 

 

 

Hi Barrie - just in case there's still somehow some ambiguity in your mind about the laws here despite what I wrote earlier...........please be clear that it's got nothing whatsoever to do with "what is legal in your country of origin".

It is illegal to tow a car behind your motorhome via and A-frame on any road in Spain.

That is the law in Spain. It matters not whether you can or cannot do so legally in any other country. You are breaking the law of Spain if you do so in Spain.

If you drive on Spanish roads, the Guardia expect you to obey Spanish law........and you are liable to a very hefty fine and/or impounding of your car if they decide to stop you for breaking that law.

 

Now, whether you decide to take that gamble and A-frame tow illegally is of course entirely up to you. But if you decide to do so here in Spain, please do not do so thinking in error that you are somehow not committing a road traffic offence here.

 

The issue I guess is simply whether you think the new, nationwide Guardia Traffico unprecedented blitz on drivers across the country will affect you; ie what are the chances that you'll be stopped, and if so whether you can afford to pay the fines on the spot , and how you'll then get your car separately (driven) out of Spain after it's release from impounding.....but only after the fines are confirmed by Guardia to the local Pound as paid.

 

Please be aware everyone that all of these Traffico vehicle inspections, documentation checks, offence notifications, penalty fining, impounding documentation and release documentation procedures are of course conducted, verbally and in writing, entirely in the language of this country.........in Spanish.

 

For any first-timers coming to Spain, please also be aware also that the Police and Guardia here carry big truncheons, and guns. Very big and very real guns.

And they do not mess about having to be all nice and polite like the hamstrung politically-correct Police now have to be in the UK. They are used to being obeyed, and they WILL use force to back up an instruction that you do not obey.

If a Spanish Police Officer or Guardia Civil officer tells you to do something, my very strong advice would be to do it; immediately, politely, smiling and without argument, and certainly without any sudden movements, or showing any sort of aggression at all to them.

If you do lose your rag with them and start shouting/being aggressive, you really WILL be going to hospital before you then go on to jail.

 

Just my personal views.

 

MMMM ! I WAS thinking of coming to Portugal and Spain to follow the 'Peninsular War' trail in January/February, but my reaction to bullies whether in uniform or not is to totally ignore them and walk away (whether they have guns or not !) I don't react angrily... just walk or drive away AND i certainly don't obey them. SO, perhaps I shoudn't come Eh. I won't be towing an A-Frame But I will have British plates and in light of what you have said, will probably be a target for an 'easy buck'. Either that or carry an even BIGGER gun. >:-) Ray

 

(just my personal views on Spanish Police)

[BGD]

Whatever Ray.

 

I was simply trying to help someone who asked for facts. Anyone is free to criticise or ignore them.

[hymer1942]

Thanks again for all your replies, nearly up to 500 hits and still no one who has actually been fined, Barrie

[hallii]

In the event of an accident, your fault or not, then any transgressions minor/major or whatever will suddenly become of interest to the Spanish police.

 

I was pulled over for not coming to a dead stop at a "STOP" sign I was apologetic and agreed that I was at fault, I escaped without a fine, BUT two policemen spent about 10 minutes checking everything on the M/H. All documents, tyre check, seat belts, bike and rack security (I did have a stripey board), triangles for breakdown, spare bulbs, everything. They were polite and very thorough.

 

My advice is that if you get pulled for any minor error, best make sure everything to do with your vehicle is 100%.

 

H

[JamesFrance]

hymer1942 - 2011-09-28 1:46 PM

 

Thanks again for all your replies, nearly up to 500 hits and still no one who has actually been fined, Barrie

 

Barrie maybe you will be the first to tell us it has happened to you.

 

We have a friend whose car hit a bump in the road and ended up in the back of his motorhome. Since then he has always towed a fully legal trailer.

 

When we towed a small yacht on a trailer behind an Autosleeper Rambler about 20 years ago, I used to see the wheels about a foot above the road quite often if I looked in the mirrors. Mind you Spanish roads have improved a lot since.

[hymer1942]

Morning all, after all the doom and gloom and getting on for 700 hits stilll looking for the first to be fined. As far as me being the first, I wont be happy but it will not be the end of the earth either. I will just have to find an alternative destination for winter. Barrie

[mike 202]

Hymer 1492,

 

YOU are the sort of person who will not listen to good advice, SO I suggest that you do not waste any more of our time by putting posts on this forum and wasting our time in trying to give you good advice.

This is the first time ever that I have wished that someone who totally wastes our time gets their come uppance, but in your case I have broken my rule. If I see any posts from you in the future I personally will not comment even if I have good information to pass on.

 

Hasta la Vista

[crinklystarfish]

Hi Barrie,

Judging by your returning interest, it's ever so possible that at least 650 of the hits so far have been your own. I admit that I'm responsible for a couple because I'm always amused at the apoplexy induced by anything to do with A Frames. They are always good for  giggle.

Singularly stupid things that in the vast majority of cases are a sticking plaster fix to the unpalatable truth that users of them would unquestionably be far better served by a nice caravan.

Why anyone would avoidably impair the freedom that non-RV sized motorhomes are supposed to bring is lost on me. 

Think of the Spanish fines as a cretin tax and be happy.

[rolandrat]

Mike, Barries original question was about asking if anyone had been fined, not hearsay, then there have been follow ons and some very good advice as well. I think what he is trying to establish is if some have been fined then fair enough, end of story. Based on that then if some have then it would be fool hardy to take his motothome into Spain towing his car. Maybe the question should have asked how many have been to Spain towing a car and not been bothered by the police.

[Rayjsj]

Do folks not look around when travelling or on sites ?? there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of motorhomes about, towing cars with properly braked A-Frames.

Now, i don't have one (yet) , but I fail to see what the 'problem' is legally ? they are perfectly safe, The Americans have been using them for Years without an epidemic of fatalities, otherwise i am sure they would have banned them long ago.

SO, why should they not be made legal 'Properly by name and Precedent' and clear up all the uncertainty , In This Country. ???

A trailer is unwieldy, difficult to load, Store, both at home and on site, needs checking for road-worthiness and conformity and generally a extra 'pain'. An A-Frame (properly braked,either electronically of physically) does the job just as well and as safe, can be stored in the boot of the car, does not need storage at home and can be checked over for road worthiness (by a specialist if required) without having to 'Tow' it. So, what is the problem ?? (apart from being a potential 'Cash Cow' for the Spanish Policia) Ray :D

 

And No, I hav'nt noted anyone saying they had been fined either ! Just a lot of 'Anti-A-frame' Bile.(as usual).

[hymer1942]

Mike, your struggling to read, I did not ask for any advice, but just if anyone had actually been fined. Barrie