Yorkyrunner Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 Its probably been covered numerous times but open to any good advice on airsuspension for an Aclass(Fiat based) Who to go to to get it fitted, should I fit it back and front, which is best to fit and costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 I refer you to the following thread at the head of this forum’s main page. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/ALL-FORUM-MEMBERS-PLEASE-READ/47195/ You need to identify the “Aclass(Fiat based)” motorhome - make, model and year of manufacture would be a start. Retro-fitting air suspension to the front of a Ducato will be expensive. Retro-fitting air suspension to the rear of a Ducato with an AL-KO chassis will be expensive. Retro-fitting ‘full’ air suspension to the rear of a Ducato with a non-AL-KO chassis will be expensive. Retro-fitting ‘air assistance’ to the rear axle of a Ducato with a non-AL-KO chassis can be relatively inexpensive (say £400 for a straightforward system). Retro-fitting ‘full’ air suspension to front AND rear will be very expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 My advice, in addition to Derek's, is to decide what you are trying to achieve. Air suspension may not be the best solution or might be just part of the solution. When I set off in 2014 on the same path you are, I spoke to VB Air Suspension and Goldschmitt (Travelworld/Erwin Hymer Centre). Both gave me good advice. From reading their website and documents plus the advice, I worked out what I wanted and how much I was willing to pay. Then I sought quotes from them and AS Air Suspension. Glide-Rite was another firm I considered. I went for semi air suspension on the rear axle from Goldschmitt for c£2000. Had I decided on full air suspension, I would have gone to VB Air Suspension c7,000+. Five years ago, Alko chassis air suspension systems were rare. There will be more choice now but the importance of working out what you want to achieve remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 There is a three page article on suspension and levelling systems in the latest issue of MMM which has just arrived! I haven't read it yet but it may be worth getting a copy. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickybeau Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 I was quoted well over £5k to fit full Air on my Ducato light chassis. I fitted auxiliary air bags bought from eBay (Euroair) for under £300. After faffing about for months looking unsuccessfully for someone to fit it, I bit the bullet, crawled under the van and fitted it myself in a few hours. I’m not fully happy with the pipe runs and site of the dials at the moment and intend to revisit that in the near future but they work and don’t leak while allowing me to legally run a heavier weight for continental touring that is usually 5-6 weeks at a time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Keithl - 2019-05-28 11:05 AM There is a three page article on suspension and levelling systems in the latest issue of MMM which has just arrived! I haven't read it yet but it may be worth getting a copy. Keith. The article is on Pages 212-216 of the July 2019 issue of MMM magazine. It should give a ball-park idea of the cost of the various ‘air’ system types according to a motorhome’s particular chassis specification. Contact details of possible suppliers are also provided. There’s also a useful summary here https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/motorhome-levelling-and-air-suspension-systems-explained and a GOOGLE-search on “motorhome air suspension” will retrieve lots more stuff. Richard (Dickybeau) mentioned fitting an air-bellows kit to his Burstner A-Class motorhome in this April 2019 forum thread https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Euroair-auxiliary-suspension-on-B-rstner-A-Class/51749/ It’s perhaps worth emphasising that just retro-fitting an ‘air’ system won’t automatically increase a motorhome’s authorised maximum overall or axle weight limits. To uprate such limits will require a separate ‘bureaucratic’ exercise that Richard (or a 3rd-party) will have carried out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Does your motorhome have an AL-KO- Chassis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkyrunner Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 Hi sorry for delay we were travelling back today from a break. I appreciate all the advice will look at the options , I thought it would be a straight forward choice. we have a fiat based chassis light apparantly and the weight is 3850 kgs max so just looking at a system that assists i think as its got a large garage but I prefer to put 2 e bikes on bike rack freeing up more space to carry long term stuff including spare wheel.Its the overhang is what worries me ,at present it seems fine but I worry a bit about getting on and off ferries. I could start another thread on the fact that modern vans are getting longer but the manufactureres do not put a good chassis wheelbase to match,hence the overhang.After I posted the original queiry I remembered I had had it fitted to our original 6mtr Tribby about 11years ago it worked atreat on that as we had a back box on the bike rack and the bikes on a towball mounted but it was a harsh ride and the wheels were at each corner so perfect balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Yorkyrunner, If you are concerned about dragging your rear end then have you had your MH weighed? And specifically rear axle weight? Adding rear air suspension will not help if you are already overloaded so you must check weights before proceeding. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Yorkyrunner - 2019-05-28 10:14 PM ...we have a fiat based chassis light apparantly and the weight is 3850 kgs max so just looking at a system that assists i think as its got a large garage... I’ll just repeat (despairingly!!) what I said in my response to your original posting You need to identify the “Aclass(Fiat based)” motorhome - make, model and year of manufacture would be a start. If that information had been known when you asked the question, much more focus could immediately have been given to answering it. Even if you aren’t certain which chassis-type your motorhome has, many forum-members would know if the motorhome’s make, model and year is stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-05-29 9:18 AM Yorkyrunner - 2019-05-28 10:14 PM ...we have a fiat based chassis light apparantly and the weight is 3850 kgs max so just looking at a system that assists i think as its got a large garage... I’ll just repeat (despairingly!!) what I said in my response to your original posting You need to identify the “Aclass(Fiat based)” motorhome - make, model and year of manufacture would be a start. If that information had been known when you asked the question, much more focus could immediately have been given to answering it. Even if you aren’t certain which chassis-type your motorhome has, many forum-members would know if the motorhome’s make, model and year is stated. Possibly a Mobilvetta K Yacht from earlier posts! https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Spare-Wheel/51780/ https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Mobilvetta-K-Yacht/51647/ Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Your post yesterday makes it clear what you are trying to achieve and why so I would speak to VB Air Suspension for their advice on what is the best solution. The advice given on this site and in July's MMM (my copy has just arrived) is useful, as was the past advice I received from this site when I had your dilemma, but when it comes to the nitty gritty, you need a firm that can devise the right system for your van - and it might not be air suspension. Oh, and don't overload the garage beyond its capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 If it’s a Mobilvetta K Yacht model, then it would be useful to know exactly which model it is. Mobilvetta’s owm website indicates that the larger models (over 7 metres in length) were built on a Fiat Ducato ‘light’ chassis with a ‘heavy’ chassis as an option, but also with an AL-KO chassis as an alternative. It would appear that 2018 K Yachts were marketed by Marquis in the UK with a 3650kg maximum weight but (as shown in this advert) that 2019 models have a 3850kg maximum. https://www.marquisleisure.co.uk/motorhomes/stock-item/mobilvetta-k-yacht-tekno-line79-39739 There is some on-line indication that having a 3850kg maximum, rather than the more normal 3650kg, carries a small weight penalty, suggesting the possibility that it involves technical changes. If that’s correct, the model might already have air assistance on the rear axle. I’m pretty sure that the Marquis-sold K Yachts are all on a Fiat Ducato ‘camping-car’ chassis (not on an AL-KO chassis) but it would be wise to confirm this. Retro-fitting a rear-axle 'air-assist’ kit to a Fiat chassis should be straightforward and quite cheap: if the chassis were AL-KO, retro-fitting air-assist would be considerably more expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Current Fiat Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis with a maximum overall weight of 3500kg have front and rear axle-load maxima of 1850kg and 2000kg respectively, and those axle-load maxima don’t change when the alternative maximum overall weight of 3650kg is chosen. A motorhome built on a Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis usually has either 15” wheels with 215/70 R15CP tyres with a 109 load index (2060kg maximum axle loading) or 16” wheels with 225/75 R16CP tyres with a 116 load index (2500kg maximum axle loading). If the maxima overall weight of a Fiat Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis is uprated to 3850kg but the maximum axle loadings are unchanged, if the 3850kg maximum is to be fully exploited there’s every chance that the 2000kg rear-axle loading will be exceeded and, if the vehicle has 215/70 R15CP 109 tyres, that the rear tyres will also go beyond their 2060kg axle-load limit. (If the tyres are 225/75 R16CP specification, they probably should be OK in that respect.) The trouble is that (as some forum-members have discovered) if a motorthome with a long rear overhang is heavily loaded behind the rear axle-line, the resulting leverage reduces the weight on the front axle but moves the ‘lost’ weight to the rear axle. Although the loaded motorhome may then still be within its overall maximum weight limit, its rear axle may be well overweight. It would be worth confirming how the 3850kg maximum overall weight has been achieved and what maximum axle-load values the motorhome manufacturer’s data-plate carries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Derek is quite right. When we had the Chausson uprated (on the light chassis) we had to have rear air suspension and change the tyres fir ones with a heavier load rating. The problems for us then were the same - with NOTHING in the garage or on the back the rear axle was at the 2000kg limit. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 I fitted air bags years ago purely to ease my saggy bottom........increasing my load on paper wasn't a option back then :-| ......... Have to say it was a investment worth having drive wise......and my Back end is still quite pert :D ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 The current (July 2019) issue of MMM magazine contains a review of a 2019 Carado T449. This motorhome is a low-profile design, 7.40m long and based on a Fiat Ducato light’ camping-car chassis. The standard gross weight is 3500kg with 3850kg being an option. The review says about the optional 3850kg upgrade ...priced at £219 and just a paper exercise, there are no chassis changes. This seems to be confirmed by the 2019 Carado catalogue that defines the optional gross weight upgrade as Weight increase to 3,850 kg Fiat (without changes made to chassis) The catalogue also states that the basic specification for all 2019 Carado motorhomes includes 215/70 R15C tyres and although 16” wheels (with consequentially larger tyres) are also an option, I can’t see any indication that those wheels/tyres must be specified if the 3850kg option is chosen. Seems odd to me as, if an ‘absolutely no technical changes’ gross weight of 3850kg is now available for a Ducato light, why are many motorhome manufacturers still just offering an on-paper upgrade from 3500kg to 3650kg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 We have a 2012 Elddis Aspire 255 on the Peuguot light chassis. It was originally sold rated at 3500 kgs, it was then offered with a paper excersise to bring it up to 3700 kgs owing to it's poor payload. Wishing to increase this I spoke to SVtech for advice. To bring it to 3850 kgs involved fitting a semi air kit to the rear axle myself taking around 3 hours and to get the 2240 kg rating for the rear axle increasing the 215/70/R15 to 225/70/R15 tyres. I emptied the van measured the height to the ground from the rear jacking points the fitted the kit and tyres, loaded the van then slowly increased the air bag pressure to acheive the same height from the jacking points 2.1 bar. Got the certificate from SVtech sent off the logbook to the DVLA all sorted. Ride much better and stops the Towbar grounding on the ferry ramps. Original tyre were getting down so we're due for replacing anyway larger size was an extra £11 each, kit and paperwork came out at around £870. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Uprating motorhome weight maxima via SVTech (and other firms) will not be authorised by the vehicle’s manufacturer, but Yorkrunner has purchased a Ducato-based brand-new motorhome where its original gross weight is 3850kg and his primary interest is not to increase that weight further, but to retro-fit some sort of ‘air’ suspension system. This 2017 forum thread discussed the ability to increase the gross weight of a Ducato ‘light’ motorhome to 4000kg and its maximum axle-loadings to match. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Upgrading-fiat-light-to-4000kg-/46144/61/ However, the procedure involves modifications by Goldschmitt as listed here https://magazine.camperonline.it/accessori/Goldschmitt-2014-2015.pdf As Yorkyrunner’s motorhome’s gross weight is already 3850kg, retrofitting any type of ‘air’ system should have no effect on the vehicle’s UK ‘road tax’ class (presumably Private/HGV), though his insurer may need to be told about the modification and (potentially) it could impact on the vehicle’s warranties. One of Yorkyrunner’s concerns is the (very real) possibility of grounding the motorhome’s rear end when boarding/leaving a ferry, so a straightforward rear-axle ‘air assist’ system seems the most effective (and least costly) approach. Avoiding grounding when using ferries would involve gaining extra rear ground clearance at the time, but this enhanced clearance would not be needed when the motorhome was being driven normally. So an ‘air assist’ system with an on-board 12V compressor that would allow the driver to increase (and subsequently reset) the rear ground clearance would be the logical way to go. Such systems are offered on-line for DIY-fitting costing from £300 upwards. This link https://www.rhinoinstalls.co.uk/vb-semiair---x250--x244--2002---current--fiat-ducato--citroen-relay--peugeot-boxer quotes a supply-and-fit price of £1095 for a VB SemiAir system (with compressor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Yorkyrunner - 2019-05-27 8:23 PM Its probably been covered numerous times but open to any good advice on airsuspension for an Aclass(Fiat based) Who to go to to get it fitted, should I fit it back and front, which is best to fit and costs. Having said that Derek, yorkyrunner has not specified what his rear axle weight is plated at and he does intend hanging two e-bikes on the back. If he hasn't done so already it would be prudent to check the current axle weights against the plated weights just to confirm he will remain within limits - especially as he already has a large garage. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 david lloyd - 2019-05-30 1:09 PM Having said that Derek, yorkyrunner has not specified what his rear axle weight is plated at and he does intend hanging two e-bikes on the back. If he hasn't done so already it would be prudent to check the current axle weights against the plated weights just to confirm he will remain within limits - especially as he already has a large garage. David Exactly what I asked two days ago... Keithl - 2019-05-28 10:25 PM Yorkyrunner, If you are concerned about dragging your rear end then have you had your MH weighed? And specifically rear axle weight? Adding rear air suspension will not help if you are already overloaded so you must check weights before proceeding. Keith. But Yorkyrunner hasn't logged on since, so... Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Three things are needed... 1: Confirmation of the make and EXACT model of motorhome Yorkyrunner owns. 2: The four weight-related values that are on that motorhome's manufacturer’s ‘data-plate’. (I’ve attached an example of a Rapido data-plate that shows that this particular motorhome’s maximum overall weight is 3800kg, its train (towing) weight maximum is 5300kg and its front and rear maximum axle-loads are respectively 1750kg and 2240kg.) 3: Information on the specification of the motorhome’s tyres (eg. 215/70 R15CP or 225/75 R16CP) It seems unlikely that motorhome manufacturers currently building models on a Fiat Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis with a gross weight of 3850kg will have retained the normal 1850kg and 2000kg front and rear axle-load maxima, or increased the rear-axle load maximum without uprating the normal 215/70 R15CP tyres. But stranger things have happened with motorhomes and it would be sensible to establish that those assumptions are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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