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Another newbie question - the move from Diesel


stagger321

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Hi there.

As per a prev post I am new to this game, and looking for our first largish MH.

As someone who has worked in the motor industry for many years, I have seen the recent shift from fossil fuels to a HEV and BEV in the car industry. In fact a number of manufacturers are stating their intentions to not offer diesel/petrol options some time soon.

In the UK, recently Diesel-gate (and Brexit) have had a huge impact on sales in the car industry. All we currently see for eco-friendly vans and Trucks are coming from people like Elon Musk /Tesla. Nothing much from anyone else. As we know most of the powertrains for the larger vans are coming from people like Fiat, Pug, and Ford.

 

I understand the reliance on Diesel in the Motorhome/Truck sector - all that Torque, and some extra economy over Petrol, buy hey, Electric gives you a boot-full of Torque, and its instant.

 

Obviously Battery technology and range has a lot to do with this, but what are peoples thoughts going forward?

 

I truly believe these next few years are the last hurrah for the infernal (sic) combustion engine, and therefore at this early stage of potential Motorhome ownership, don't wish to invest a large sum of money on a Euro-5 or Euro-6 diesel when tax's, LEZ's and resulting and residual decline will affect my new purchase. Neither do I wish to own anything older and less good for the environment.

 

Thoughts?

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My thoughts are that anyone with any doubts about buying a motorhome, whatever the reason, should not. Especially if they are going to borrow money or dip into a pension pot. Anecdotal comments from the recent NEC Show suggests people are thinking this way. If, however, you have the money and are keen, then I would go ahead. Anecdotal evidence from the NEC suggests there are people minded this way.

 

I don't see the motorhoming in future being just a diesel issue. It's far more complex to me and sadly, I cannot comprehend all the inter related issues from whether it is right to chop down trees to grow bio fuels to how we are going to generate electricity. Add in politicians who will do whatever they think will keep them in power and the general incompetence of Governments/Local Authorities over hundreds of years, and the mist becomes a fog.

 

I can foresee more Park & Ride Schemes. That doesn't bother me because I use them. These schemes wear a green hat but are often more to do with just too much traffic than diesel engines. I'm quite happy mixing motorhoming and public transport.

 

If I was thinking of buying a motorhome now, I would get a big sheet of paper and write down everything I think will affect my decision and why [i use mind maps/spider diagrams]. Then I'd stare at this for days on end until the shape of a decision appears. It is crystal ball gazing!

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Previous enquiry about buying a motorhome on this link

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Newbie-MH-purchaser-after-buying-advise-/50545/

 

The potential impact on motorcaravanning of restrictions on diesel-fuelled vehicles was discussed in these earlier forum threads

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Diesel-vehicles-banned-/46764/

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Diesel-Demonisation/49616/

 

I echo Brock’s advice. There’s no realistic near-future alternative to the diesel engine to power motorhomes of the type currently most commonly bought. Development using different fuels and/or electricity is targeting smaller lighter vehicles so, if future-proofing is top of one’s priority list, the logical choice would be to not buy an large expensive diesel-fuelled motorhome, but to buy a large caravan and a tow-car with a more ‘acceptable’ powerplant. Then, even if the tow-car might need to be replaced to meet regulation changes, at least the original caravan could be kept.

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Motorhomes start life as light (sometimes heavy) commercial vehicles which are then converted to provide living accommodation. In the process, they gain a lot of weight, as an inevitable consequence of which their usable payloads are savaged. Now add in the weight of batteries to give the vehicle sensible driving range (say 400 or so miles) charges, and on present driving licence restrictions, a C1 licence will be required to drive just about any motorhome.

 

In addition, anywhere you stop overnight will need to offer charging facilities, which would pretty well rule out wild camping and many aires etc. If all the vehicles arriving at camp sites will then require charging facilities for their traction batteries, the existing site electrical installations will be liable to require upgrading to cope with the added load, with inevitable consequences for cost.

 

Of course, this will not all happen at the same time, as electric vehicles will only gradually replace present vehicles but, if that is the direction we are to take, that is the direct consequence I foresee.

 

Batteries do not last forever, so over time there will be a growing need for battery recycling, imposing environmental issues as well as bringing extra cost.

 

All that additional electricity has to be generated somewhere, and then conveyed around the country to feed all those charging points. So, more wind farms, solar farms, and surely tidal power stations, will be required to feed the demand, all themselves consuming energy and (finite) raw materials for their construction and all having to be financed.

 

Current energy consumed by road transport is estimated to be 55,970 MW (oil equivalent). Total national generating capacity is currently about 71,000MW, so we'd need about 125,000 MW in total. That is a lot of extra generating capacity if all road vehicles are to go electric. So, is this all just a comforting pipe dream?

 

I think future generations will have to find alternative ways to fuel vehicles (hydrogen?), or travel lower distances, less often. Where that leaves your own plans, I leave you to fathom! :-D

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stagger321 - 2018-11-07 11:51 AM

 

 

 

 

 

I truly believe these next few years are the last hurrah for the infernal (sic) combustion engine ………………….

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

I think you are being unduly pessimistic ( or maybe optimistic ? ) if you think there will be much change from current practices in the " next few years ".

 

 

How long will the new infrastructure take t build nationwide ( charging points ) ?

 

 

…………...and what about travelling around the rest of Europe in our electric cars - will they all be ready ?

 

I can't envisage much change in less than 20 years.

 

 

:-|

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I don't see a viable alternative for the principle high mileage desinged user of light commercials.

 

Maybe there is a case for diesel or petrol electric hybrid motive power as that seems to work well for smaller vehicles giving lower fossil fuel use but at the much higher cost of two engines plus batteries.

 

I suspect like most things change will be cost driven and when the cost of petrol/diesel rises enough along with politically imposed punitive taxation, then change could happen quite quickly - but what to is anybody's guess.

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Folks, - thanks for the comments, advise etc.

For the record, I don't consider myself a Pessimist, or necessarily an Optimist, although these days I tend to be much more cup half-full than I used to be.

I am a realist, and when I make the wrong call and don't get it right, I am am happy to roll with the resulting punches.

 

When it comes to sizeable investment the ONLY reason I ask this is to ensure I have covered the bases, and that's why I ask questions - not because I am nervous.

I know I will miss some, and am happy to live with the consequences.

 

I can afford to invest here. I do not live on the breadline fortunately, and now is the right time - for many reasons. But - I like to invest wisely - and not at any cost. I realise that all MH residuals decrease over time. Thats life, but I would rather my cash is used wisely and not something where the residuals plummet.

 

So, provided our rental goes OK next year I will be buying a MH. Its a given. And my budget is not small.

 

The comment about 20 years away. Believe me, working in the car industry R&D, I know that not to be the case. Things are moving way faster then that - (Brexit dependant) maybe UK could lead that - who knows, but Euro countries will be out there too.

The only thing standing in the way of widespread rollout of BEV's is countrywide infrastructure - charging units etc. Yes, that has to improve.

 

 

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For many years we were easily able to afford a new motorhome but we preferred to buy used because we avoided the dreadful problems that so many new vans come with and a used van did the job just as well for us at significantly less outlay.

 

Things are changing and if you want to be 'allowed' into towns and cities these days especially abroad then maybe a new Euro 6+ engined van is the only way to go just now - until who knows what?

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The i-phone was launched 11 years ago and look at where the smart-phone has got now. Twenty four years after the Lancaster bomber was in action the Concorde had its maiden flight and men landed on the moon. A lot of money is being invested in electric vehicle development and there are some very clever people working on the technology. I think the tipping point will be much sooner than 20 years and will be near the point when diesel engines are effectively banned from cities.
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I agree, if the charging issues were overcome and 'range anxiety' abolished in so much as you could charge up almost anywhere whilst you take a break or have a meal then we could very quickly see all electric only vehicles become the norm.

 

That seems unlikely so development will be hampered until the charging infrastrucure and the generating capacity to feed it catch up - meanwhile diesel, hybrid and range extending ICE vehicles are the only viable choices for those for whom small commercial vehicles are purpose designed, motorhome coversions being an incidental smaller scale spin off.

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Personally I would still go for Diesel at the moment, and just get on and enjoy Motorhoming.I think the future , particularly for large vehicles , will be electricity, powered by fuel cells, powered by Hydrogen.

Brian B.

Ps. One problem of course, with electric battery power, is heating the vehicle without reducing it's range too much.

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stagger321 - 2018-11-07 3:41 PM

 

The comment about 20 years away.

 

Believe me, working in the car industry R&D, I know that not to be the case

 

. Things are moving way faster then that - (Brexit dependant) maybe UK could lead that - who knows, but Euro countries will be out there too.

The only thing standing in the way of widespread rollout of BEV's is countrywide infrastructure - charging units etc. Yes, that has to improve.

 

 

 

I'm well aware that the industry is very advanced - I just can't see the government getting the infrastructure complete inside 20 years.

 

Theoretically we could all buy electric cars before this Xmas - but would have great difficulty using them.

 

 

;-)

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malc d - 2018-11-07 4:45 PM

 

I'm well aware that the industry is very advanced - I just can't see the government getting the infrastructure complete inside 20 years.

 

Theoretically we could all buy electric cars before this Xmas - but would have great difficulty using them.

;-)

I'm a lot more optimistic about it than this. Its not like the technology doesn't exist.

In 20 years time driverless cars will be commonplace - that's also something that is not Tomorrows world. Its reality already.

I started in the Car industry nearly 30 years ago when we had hardly any CAD design stations, it was almost entirely woodbine smoking males hunched over a massive long office of drawing boards.

Now everyone has the computer, and a digital camera - and, yes, its called a mobile phone.

 

20 years is a long, long time when it comes to technology.

Political hiccups aside, public charging stations will be common place sooner than you think, as will battery hookups at home.

Not sure you realise that there are already 16,500 public charging points in the UK.

https://www.goultralow.com/how-do-you-charge-an-electric-car/electric-car-chargers/

This is Today's world, not Tomorrows world.

Just saying.

Peace :-D

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I've had a look through recent back copies of 'Trucking' and 'Buses' for an insight into what the future for fuel may hold. Some common themes include improving road layouts and traffic flows, auto boxes are now almost a standard item plus numerous other driver aids, vehicle engineering such as regenerative braking, and driver training. Satnavs could focus on the least polluting routes - some modern trucks already have terrain anticipating satnavs linked to auto boxes.

 

Within 5 years, buses have leapt from hybrids to all electric. The former are now well established, the latter catching on. Mercedes have a bus that is charged from above at dedicated places. Apparently, China's bus builder is well ahead of the game on battery technology. Stop-Start technology is used and bus engines are being brought up to Euro 6 standard. The cost of the latter can be £25,000, about 16% of the cost of a new bus. There is a trial in Southampton where a bus sucks in air, purifies it, and pushes the air out of the rear; the aim being to improve the air quality to the surrounding community.

 

Electric delivery trucks are now coming on to the market. We used to call them milk floats! The new ones will have a longer range and carry more.

 

All electric HGVs are unlikely as yet. LPG, Methane/diesel mix, BioMass - gas/wood mix, Hydrogen, Liquified Natural Gas, recycled waste oil, Biofuel mixes, are all being tested in lorries on our roads.There is, I think, a battery powered diesel train being trialled in England

 

Who knows what all this means to motorhomers but at a guess I reckon within 5 years we might have to have our engines reprogrammed to take alternative fuels whist retaining the existing engine, and old motorhomes face a big bill for bringing the engine into an acceptable Euro rating. More environmentally friendly public transport and restrictive use of our motorhome - I can just imagine the CMC having to put up bus stops so we go out for the day. The Driving Test will include more environmentally friendly driving techniques. Caravanners will be OK, they could just stick a horse on the front and use the CMC stables.

 

Oh and before all this happens, Hymer will have concluded their trial of a driverless motorhome which it is carrying out with Mercedes. Finally, remember, Corporal Jones in Dad's Army solved the lack of

petrol problem so we're not all doomed.

 

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Time and Tide wait for no man!

If you want to enjoy the pleasures and freedoms of motorhome touring - get on and do it.

In my experience as you get older you become a little less adventurous and although you have more time you may have less inclination to use your vehicle.

Our touring freedoms limitations and emission zones are already with us to a certain extent, but there is still plenty out there to see and do and alternative routes or transport systems to use to compliment our touring, with a bit of effort and research.

 

I can understand your thought on the residual value of your considerable investment, but new technology such as electric vehicles are probably not going to be mainstream in the near future....there are factors with regard to payload and infrastructure to overcome first, as pointed out by other postings.

 

With regard to environmental issues you can if you choose compensate for that according to your conscience in other ways with lifestyle choices and daily living. I bet owning a diesel causes less pollution than jetting off abroad several times a year into airconditioned hotels.

I hope that my Eco house with super insulation, airtightness, MVHR, Solar Panels and rainwater harvesting and very low energy use, compensates for my 12 year old diesel motorhome and 4000 miles a year. I have never owned a diesel car and my last car was 15 years old when it was scrapped and my current Honda Jazz is 61/2 years old. You may be judged, but you can keep your own conscience clear.

 

A comment was made about owning a car and caravan, which would enable you to stay more environmentally friendly now and to update your vehicle more easily in the future, but that is a very different choice. There would also be considerable resources used in the production of updating vehicles.

Fred

 

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I don't believe anyone in industry or government has any idea what the future is, its a matter of dreaming up another stage 'somewhere further forward' in the hope it might be progress.

 

1. Plastics are a typical result of the biggest shambles of all time. It was all about employing people sooner than planning what happens to it.

 

2. The phrase climate change is another farce, plant more trees is the cry but they exude tons of carbon with evaporation from the soil plus leaf die-back ... it employs people.

 

3. Greenhouse gasses ... stop all land farming ... remove all animals and stop building houses. It would disappear overnight.

 

4. Rubbish could be burnt within Incinerators with catchments it the chimney so simple but oh no its too simple, the needs are employment.

 

5. The planet is warming ... blame the people so more can be employed to talk about it, the facts of the universe mean little !

 

6. The facts are ... its employment versus simplicity ... what powers a vehicle matters not.

 

I was born in the 20's and have experienced most ... all we have now are continuous lies !

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Henry Ford thought the petrol engine was to be short lived, he got it completely wrong.

There have been practical (for most people) electric cars for many years, must be over 10 years since gf brought one home from work.

The only electric motorhome I've heard discussed had a 70 mile range, which would mean we couldn't make any of our normal coast runs on one charge, not good for a journey on a Friday night after work, let alone the often hundreds of miles a day needed to get to many of the areas we go.

At the moment I can only see electric motorhomes being practical as a PVC on a maxi chassis with 4t MAM, will mean younger drivers with no choice but to take a further test. Someone will need to come up with a practical hybrid, and vans are well behind at the moment on this, although didn't Nick mention something from Fiat being developed?

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stagger321 - 2018-11-07 5:10 PM

 

20 years is a long, long time when it comes to technology.

 

Political hiccups aside, public charging stations will be common place sooner than you think, as will battery hookups at home.

 

Peace :-D

 

 

 

I wonder what the home charging set- up will be for people who live in high rise flats.

 

 

;-)

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With regards to EVs it's not the infrastructure that we should worry about but where is the electricity coming from if you were to calculate the energy that is provided by liquid fuels and replace it with electricity it becomes very daunting.

I am not sure what the excess generating capacity is in the UK and Europe but boosting it means only one thing,more power stations.Wind power,no wind no power I recently returned to the UK for family reasons and toured in a rental motorhome wind farms are spoiling someof the nicest scenery in the UK,I also read an article about a wind farm in the UK that at a standstill was consuming power to power it's infrastructure .Hydro,don't think there is much or any in the UK .

That leaves two alternatives thermal or nuclear thermal defeats the principle and we all know what nuclear means.

 

I live in NZ and when I immigrated in the 70's the company I worked for was pluggin a CNG system developed in the USA I ran a Range Rover on it for many years (dual fuel petrol CNG) CNG lacked a bit of power but it was clean and the infrastructure was pretty good and you could fuel up all around the country,we also had LPG not sure what its usage is now, not much but CNG died the death many years ago.

If I was chosing a MH today I would still go for diesel or petrol,it's the particulates with diesel that is driving the diesel thing petrol is cleaner but not as economical but it's probably limiting in your base vehicle choices.

Watch the EV thing when other people have proven whether it works or not then jump in,if your still around .

Motorhomes are to be enjoyed not worrying about where your going to get your next fill,try it in Australia where it can be 500ks to your next fuel.

 

P.S.How clean is battery manufacturing and how much can be recycled we could go for horse power or oxen but as someone has already said not good for global warming "methane" and what about all the horses**t or bulls**t on the motorways it'l do the roses good though.

 

 

 

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jjsbc - 2018-11-07 10:16 PM

 

With regards to EVs it's not the infrastructure that we should worry about but where is the electricity coming from if you were to calculate the energy that is provided by liquid fuels and replace it with electricity it becomes very daunting.

 

 

 

 

Overnight when most are expected to charge their vehicles there is quite a bit of spare capacity, as I type this there is around 15GW spare, daytime there is less to spare, and around 6pm we get close to zero spare.

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stagger321 - 2018-11-07 4:41 PMFolks, -. The only thing standing in the way of widespread rollout of BEV's is countrywide infrastructure - charging units etc. Yes, that has to improve.

Based on Brian's comments re infrastructure costs/needs I think that is one big ONLY THING!
 
Great debate thank you.
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When your in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the day charging your MH that's stretching the power supply.

Yeah great, at home charging overnight so you go home and charge it overnight "from the middle of France"

Think on this it takes about 20 mins to charge a small EV how long for a large EV how long to fill a diesel tank how large would an EV station have to be to accommodate lots of EVs imagine the equivalent of EV re gas station it would have to be huge .

So it takes 20 mins for a charge you turn up at an EV charge area and have to wait for a plugin ? then charge it if your out of luck maybe 40 mins.

 

You arrive at your destination at 6pm want to charge it so you can leave early am you are not going to wait until the power infrastructure can cope you will do it NOW.

 

Sorry buy a diesel

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I always imagine that the people who plan the future of travel in the U.K. all live in nice houses, with a drive or their own parking space - ( and have public transport passing their door several times every hour as an alternative ).

 

In the real world, many people don't live like that.

 

I just can't imagine a street of terraced houses - with no front garden - where cars are parked in the road.

 

Will every house have a cable crossing the pavement - or some kind of " parking meter " planted outside every house ?

 

:-|

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There seems to be plenty of ‘incidents’ of parking rage reported these days in congested cities and towns. Seems likely that many people cannot park outside their own front door, but why would politicians and planners worry about that. This would seem to need power points at every house but technology for others to plug and pay. I look forward to stories of people having their charging leads unplugged and used by others!

 

That muse aside, I keep wondering why I am not hearing people advocating LPG. Calor in N. Ireland keep extolling how their gas is bio diverse and sourced from renewables. I understand it burns without toxic emissions. Obviously there is still the need for petrol to start and as a back up, but surely this could be developed out and a price differential to ensure people used the lpg at all other times.

 

http://www.calorgas.ie/

 

Davy

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In the 1920s the Midland Red bus company had a fleet of Tilling-Stevens petrol/electric buses, so nothing is entirely new. they were eventually replaced so we must conclude that they weren't as good as their petrol engined replacements, probably because that was the state of technological developement then, and as steam trains were phased out BR had a huge fleet of diesel/electric locomotors, so nothing is entirely new, we just improve technology to enable us to do things we've known about for a long time.

 

30 years ago a very knowledgeable colleague suggested that the way forward would be hybrid vehicles with a small, super efficient fixed speed engine driving a generator to charge advanced design batteries, and at that time it was the batteries that were the sticking point.

 

We now have some small but highly efficient gasoline engines powering small cars from most of the big manufacturers, and they could be configured to run on many different fuels, and with the regenerative systems now being developed, and solar power becoming more efficient, I wouldn't mind betting that this sort of thing will be available for sensible money soon, so the higher mileage/long distance drivers will use the hybrids, and those who only need a car to potter around town will use home rechargables.

 

To get back to the subject of the post, I agree that the biggest problem we are likely to face in the short term will be the restricted access to towns and cities that will be imposed in the name of clean air., and I expect that everyone who can will find a way of making our pastime more expensive for us, and more profitable for them will do so. I don't think that motorhoming as we know it can remain viable in the long term, and as has been suggested, a new ecologically acceptable car towing a caravan will be a better option. You won't need to take your outfit into the towns and cities, just park up the van in the caravan site just outside town and drive into town in your eco friendly car. This is also a good option for those of us who can no longer contemplate too much walking or standing around.

 

Better still, why not get a fifth wheeler? It could be towed by an eco-friendly half ton , extended cab pickup which could go anywhere, would be much more stable on the road, could probably get away with using aires, and is not that much different to driving a conventional caravan outfit.

 

AGD

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