Autoroller gas locker weight capacity

[Shedifice]

HI,

 

We have an autoroller 707. it came installed with a 11kg 67R Gaslow tank. As these tanks are about 12.5kg empty it must be circa 16 to 17kgs full.

 

On the door is a sticker noting 15kg which I assume to be the locker capacity.

 

I was looking to install a second tank to increase the gas capacity but would I be right in thinking that the locker is already at capacity (slightly over)?

 

If this is the case does anyone have any experience of beefing up the standard plastic locker floor to take a second bottle.

 

Kind regards

 

 

leigh

 

[Keithl]

Hi Leigh,

 

Your current R67 cylinder holds 11 kg of gas so add your empty weight of 12.5 kg gives a total weight of 23.5 kg.

 

The Auto-Roller specification states "Space for 2 gas bottles (tot. max 15 kg)" exactly as you say is on the door label but seen as your cylinder is 12.5 kg empty my assumption would be that this is the actual weight of GAS and does not include the cylinders tare weight.

 

I would suggest you need to contact Auto-Roller or your selling dealer for further clarification.

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

I'd be more concerned about whether there is actually room in the gas locker for a 2nd gas canister.

 

Unless a 2019 707 model was designed specifically for the UK market where small-capacity gas bottles (eg. 6kg capacity) are widely available, I would have thought its gas locker should be capable of accommodating 2 x 11kg (German) or 2 x 13kg (French) bottles - otherwise the motorhome would be unsaleable in Continental-European countries.

 

As Keith has advised, seek advice about this from a Roller Team dealership.

[Shedifice]

Thanks for the responses. Will contact AR.

 

It is a double locker so it would be a shame not to be able to fit another in due to weight.

 

Regards

 

Leigh

[Brian Kirby]

Probably best. Roller Team UK tel: 01472 571000.

 

We have three gas cylinders.

 

A French Butagaz 13 kg cylinder - Cylinder weight 15kg. Full 28kg.

A UK Flogas 11 kg cylinder - Cylinder weight 12.6kg. Full 23.6kg.

A UK Flogas 6kg cylinder - cylinder weight 9.3kg. Full 15.3kg. These are all steel cylinders.

 

So, if two of either were to be installed empty the 15kg would be exceeded.

 

If it is the gas weight only that is being is referred to it makes little sense, as in almost every case (except aluminium cylinders which I believe are only available as refillables in UK, although fairly common as exchange in Germany) the cylinder weighs more than the gas it carries. So I think it would be well worth finding out what, exactly, is the basis for the 15kg limit - because if it is gas weight, on the face of it, you are limited to just two 6kg cylinders - which seems highly restrictive for what I understand to be a 6 berth van.

[Keithl]

In this video of a 2017 AR 707 they show the gas locker in the first 30 seconds and there is a label clearly visible on the inside of the door stating '1 X 15 kg' so what does this actually mean?

 

 

It also looks as though it has a 13 kg and 6 kg Propane cylinder fitted, both Calor.

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

Keith

 

It’s clear from the video you provided a link to that a 707’s gas locker can accommodate a 13kg and 6kg Calor propane bottle, and it looks like the locker could accept 2 x 13kg Calor canisters and, hence, 2 x 11kg Gaslow containers.

 

I’m GUESSING that the 1 x 15kg marking on the locker door is vehicle-weight related, and has nothing to do with the locker’s design capability to cope with the weight of the gas canisters. This crystal-ball-gazing is based on Roller Team documentation ‘foot notes' that include the statement

 

"(d) Certifed vehicle weight. Comprises: driver, fuel tank fully filled(60 lt.), fresh water tank filled to 50 lt. (use of special drain valve) and aluminium gas bottles (max. 15 kg.) filled at 90% of their capacity, and certifed tolerance(+/- 5%) (2001/116/CE). Warning: optional items installed are not included in the determination of the load less weight in running order of the vehicle.”

 

Although it’s commonplace for motorhome manufacturers to specify a weight limit for rear garages or drop-down beds, I’ve never come across a weight limit being imposed for a gas-locker. As I said above, if a 707 model’s gas-locker could only carry a single full bottle of gas weighing no more than 15kg, or a single bottle of gas with a gas-capacity not exceeding 15kg, the 707 would effectively be unsaleable in many Continental-European motorhome marketplaces.

[Keithl]

Derek,

 

My guess on why there is a weight limit on the gas locker is that the 707 is a 6 berth MH supplied as standard plated at 3,500 kg. To achieve this requires serious weight reductions wherever possible!

 

I would be very interested as to what Leigh's MH weighs when loaded ready for the road? Or has your MH been uprated Leigh?

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

Yes - hence the reference to the gas bottles in the weight-related footnote being made of aluminium.

 

But that seems unlikely to affect the load-carrying capability of a 707’s gas-locker to cope with the weight of (say) two full 13kg Calor propane bottles, or a couple of full Gaslow 11kg bottles. It just means that the larger and heavier gas bottles that are put in the locker, the more the likelihood that a 707 will go overweight.

 

Given a 707’s specification, as Leigh’s motorhome’s gas-locker already has a user-refillable Gaslow 11kg on it, even if the locker can hold another bottle I wonder why this is might be considred necessary. I also suggest it would be inadvisable due to the extra bottle’s impact on the motorhome’s limited payload.

 

(It should be simple enough to ‘beef up’ the 707’s gas-locker’s plastic base by grafting a plywood or metal sheet over the existing floor.)

[Shedifice]

Thanks for the extra input.

 

AR were pretty unhelpful regarding the locker and defaulted to the stated 15kg max limit.

 

I tried to point out that even a single 6kg calor would max out the locker and on those grounds having space for 2 bottles was pointless.

 

I tend to agree that they may be limiting the mass based on keeping the overall weight down. Its just frustrating not to get a straight answer out of them.

 

We are a family of 5 but small ish kids (for now) doing short stays but I will try and get the van weighed with full kit to see if we make the 3500kg. Its not been uprated as of yet but both me and the wife are long enough in the tooth to drive a 3500kg+ van but I believe it only gives us another 150kgs.

 

I am considering another bottle if we end up doing more touring rather than shorter serviced pitches.

 

Cheers

 

leigh

[Shedifice]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-04-19 9:45 AM

 

Given a 707’s specification, as Leigh’s motorhome’s gas-locker already has a user-refillable Gaslow 11kg on it, even if the locker can hold another bottle I wonder why this is might be considred necessary. I also suggest it would be inadvisable due to the extra bottle’s impact on the motorhome’s limited payload.

I could always leave the heaviest child with the inlaws!

[Derek Uzzell]

The specification of a current-model Roller-Team 707 model includes a ‘£ cost option’ (for Fiat Ducato-based versions) of a gross vehicle weight (GVW) upgrade from 3500kg to 3650kg - but this option would be chosen by a purchaser when a new 707 motorhome was being ordered.

 

The Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis on which the 707 is built will have been specified by Fiat with a GVW of 3650kg and Roller-Team will have revised that figure down to the ‘standard’ 3500kg weight to widen its market appeal for those countries where many/most motorists’ driving-licence entitlement restricts them to 3500kg-max vehicles. (My own motorhome is also based on a Ducato ‘light’ chassis plated by Fiat with a GVW of 3650kg, but with a Rapido ‘downgrade’ to 3500kg chosen by me when I ordered the vehicle in 2014. I could have specified the 3650kg GVW instead (at no extra cost) but I no longer have the necessary driving-licence entitlement.)

 

Retrospectively uprating your 707’s GVW to 3650kg should be simple enough (though almost certainly not free-of-charge via Roller-Team) but the extra 150kg might not be worth having if your motorhome's rear axle weight (fully loaded) is already at/near its maximum - which you won’t know unless you have the vehicle weighed.

 

So, if you are contemplating uprating the GVW, you might want to research going above 3650kg. These recent-ish forum discussions may be helpful

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=all&keywords=SvTech&author=derek+uzzell&days=365&Submit=Search

 

Going back to the extra gas-bottle matter, an 11kg Gaslow canister holds about 22 litres of autogas. That’s a lot of gas to get through unless you plan to cold-weather tour off-campsite for longish periods. Suggest you try to resolve the peculiar 15kg gas-locker 'weight limit’ issue and hold fire on the potential extra bottle requiirement until you know you’ll really need it. Autogas suppliers are less widespread in the UK than they used to be, but there is still a fair number to allow you to refill your present Gaslow bottle before it runs out.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-04-19 8:57 AM

Keith

It’s clear from the video you provided a link to that a 707’s gas locker can accommodate a 13kg and 6kg Calor propane bottle, and it looks like the locker could accept 2 x 13kg Calor canisters and, hence, 2 x 11kg Gaslow containers.

I’m GUESSING that the 1 x 15kg marking on the locker door is vehicle-weight related, and has nothing to do with the locker’s design capability to cope with the weight of the gas canisters. This crystal-ball-gazing is based on Roller Team documentation ‘foot notes' that include the statement

"(d) Certifed vehicle weight. Comprises: driver, fuel tank fully lled(60 lt.), fresh water tank filled to 50 lt. (use of special drain valve) and aluminium gas bottles (max. 15 kg.) filled at 90% of their capacity, and certifed tolerance(+/- 5%) (2001/116/CE). Warning: optional items installed are not included in the determination of the load less weight in running order of the vehicle.”

Although it’s commonplace for motorhome manufacturers to specify a weight limit for rear garages or drop-down beds, I’ve never come across a weight limit being imposed for a gas-locker. As I said above, if a 707 model’s gas-locker could only carry a single full bottle of gas weighing no more than 15kg, or a single bottle of gas with a gas-capacity not exceeding 15kg, the 707 would effectively be unsaleable in many Continental-European motorhome marketplaces.

I'm stumped! :-) Where did you find that footnote, Derek? I looked at the on-line brochure, technical specifications, and price list, plus downloading the brochure, price list and handbook, and I can't find it.

 

All I can find (in a download of a Roller Team generic Handbook), is this:

"The Mass in Running Order (MRO) is the mass of the empty vehicle including a 75kg allowance for the driver, the diesel tank and lpg bottle full. The MRO is calculated with the freshwater tank empty on all models and one 13kg LPG bottle.

Should you choose to travel with your freshwater tank full the MRO figure should be adjusted accordingly.

Weights quoted are for standard vehicles only. Please take care to ensure that you have allowed for the masses of all items you intend to carry in the motorcaravan .e.g. Passengers, optional equipment, essential habitation and personal effects such as clothing, food, pets, bicycles etc." Which somewhat says otherwise! Chaos rules?

 

What I have found is a number of contradictions, and some quite misleading information. For example, the 2021 707 is stated to be a 5/6 berth, but with berth 6 only available at 3,650kg. There is a single MIRO quoted (but, as above, there seem to be differing definitions of MIRO), but also a number of options, including three engine options, but no information of the effect on MIRO of those options, plus an upgrade pack (that it seems must also have some impact on MIRO), and a vague reference to a wind out awning (if fitted) that is not listed as an option (but would definitely affect MIRO is fitted, whether at works or by a dealer).

 

OTOH, the 2019 brochure lists the 707 as a 6/7 berth van but with no stated requirement for the chassis upgrade to 3,650kg.

 

Unless there is something I have missed (which it seems there must be!) the only information I can find is incomplete, misleading, and, as above, at times contradictory (In one place the 707 is stated to have a max trailer weight of 2,000kg, in another it states the GTW is 3,500kg/3,650kg (implying no trailer load). But, the reason for the 15kg limit on the gas locker is nowhere explained except, as above, by conjecture (which I agree offers the best present clue) that adding more weight would reduce the claimed MIRO. Strange then, that they state (as above) in the "Handbook" that if one wishes to: "travel with your freshwater tank full the MRO figure should be adjusted accordingly." Well yes, but not, apparently, in the case of gas?

 

It might be worth Conrad going back to the dealer (presumably) from which he bought the van for an explanation of how the 11kg (12.4kg tare) cylinder that, when filled (23.4kg) can be reconciled with the Roller Team gas locker weight limit label @ 15kg. After all, they sold it in that state, and it's their day job to know these things.

 

I also think Conrad would be well advised to get his 707 to a weighbridge to get the axle loads and overall weight. My suggestion would be to fill the gas cylinder and the fuel tank, but remove all loose bits and pieces in the garage (camping gear etc) and to get the weights with nothing, and no-one (including the driver) in the vehicle. That should establish a reliable baseline for how much weight can be added overall, and also at each axle.

 

I think it might also help if Conrad could check the tyre size on his van (e.g. 215/70 R 15 CP?), as this will limit the extent to which axle loads can be upgraded (although uprating the tyres and or suspension may allow a further increase). Also, in view of the on-line brochure discrepancies, I think it would be wise to check how many seats actually have seat belts (5, 6, or 7?).

 

The main problem with uprating chassis is that for the standard "light" Fiat chassis the axle limits are 1,850kg front and 2,000kg rear. Although A + B = 3,850kg it is virtually impossible, in practical terms, to load a van to 3,850kg while not exceeding the weight limit on one axle (most probably the rear axle). This is a large van (on I assume a Fiat platform-cab chassis) with the potential to load heavily to the rear.

 

For comparison, we bought a Fiat based Hymer in 2013 that had a MAM of 3,700kg. I somewhat suspect that all Roller Team do to upgrade to 3,650kg is to apply a Fiat authorised increase in MIRO that can be accommodated by the existing chassis/running gear without further modification - which is all Hymer had done. It was on an AlKo chassis, but the maximum axle loads were as above for the Fiat light chassis. When emptied, apart from full fuel and gas (as suggested above) it weighed 2,870kg, so 200+kg less than Conrad's 707 = 200kg more payload.

 

I cannot find any ex-works axle load information (not unusual!) but the stated payload (i.e. MAM - MIRO) is only 442kg which, if bikes etc. (apparently a 4 bike rack is/was standard despite the statement elsewhere that if a bike rack is fitted no more than two bikes should be carried!), plus driver and passengers, plus toys, books, food, drinks, clothing, footwear, bedding, electric hook-up cable, levelling ramps, are all to be carried, will quickly eat up that allowance. For example, we add in the order of 600kg - 700kg to our van (admittedly including a full water tank) for just two of us. It is a case of a little here and a little there, but it is surprising how quickly it adds up!

 

Taking everything into account, I'm just a bit uneasy that the previous owner had added weight somewhere (roll out awning?), and then discovered that the van was unworkable at 3,500kg.

[Shedifice]

Brian, A proper sleuth!

 

As far as I know 707 used to come in a 3500kg 6 belted seats or the 3650kg version with 7 belted seats.

 

the '19 version technically sleeps 7 but you would all have to be pretty friendly and have a couple of people who were happy pot holeing given the bed arrangement.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2021-04-20 6:11 PM

 

I'm stumped! :-) Where did you find that footnote, Derek? I looked at the on-line brochure, technical specifications, and price list, plus downloading the brochure, price list and handbook, and I can't find it...

I believe that the Auto-Roller 707 model became available on the UK market in mid-2017. The ‘footnote’ about the aluminium bottles appears in online Roller-Team brochures for various model-years right up to the 2018 model-year when the format of the brochure was altered. So the aluminium bottle ‘footnote’ would have been relevant to earlier 707s even though it may not appear in later brochures.

 

Roller-Team’s 2019 brochure includes the image I’ve attached below.

 

This advert for the 2021 707 model

 

https://solentmotorhomes.co.uk/roller-team/auto-roller-707/

 

includes the following information

 

SPECIFICATIONS

Fiat Ducato Chassis 120bhp

Wheelbase 4035mm / 13.3 ft

Berths 6

Designated seats (inc driver) 4/5/6

4 in Automatic at 3,500kg,

5 in Automatic at 3,650kg,

5 in manual at 3,500kg,

6 in manual at 3,650kg

 

indicating (as one perhaps might expect) that the 3500kg/3650kg GVWs relate to the number of designated travel seats rather than to the sleeping accommodation.

 

Of course, none of this solves the conundrum of what the 1 x15kg gas-bottle sticker on Leigh’s 707’s gas-locker door actually means.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-04-21 7:19 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2021-04-20 6:11 PM

 

I'm stumped! :-) Where did you find that footnote, Derek? I looked at the on-line brochure, technical specifications, and price list, plus downloading the brochure, price list and handbook, and I can't find it...

I believe that the Auto-Roller 707 model became available on the UK market in mid-2017. The ‘footnote’ about the aluminium bottles appears in online Roller-Team brochures for various model-years right up to the 2018 model-year when the format of the brochure was altered. So the aluminium bottle ‘footnote’ would have been relevant to earlier 707s even though it may not appear in later brochures.

Ah ha! Thank you. I confess I looked at the current brochure, and the 2019 brochure as relevant to Conrad's van, but forewent the "pleasure" of combing thorough other model year brochures.

Roller-Team’s 2019 brochure includes the image I’ve attached below.

Yes, I found that, but the linkage between the 7th berth and the weight upgrade is left to be inferred, rather then being spelled out.

 

This advert for the 2021 707 model

https://solentmotorhomes.co.uk/roller-team/auto-roller-707/

includes the following information

SPECIFICATIONS

Fiat Ducato Chassis 120bhp

Wheelbase 4035mm / 13.3 ft

Berths 6

Designated seats (inc driver) 4/5/6

4 in Automatic at 3,500kg,

5 in Automatic at 3,650kg,

5 in manual at 3,500kg,

6 in manual at 3,650kg

indicating (as one perhaps might expect) that the 3500kg/3650kg GVWs relate to the number of designated travel seats rather than to the sleeping accommodation.

Which is a considerable improvement on the manufacturer's own information - which I at least would generally expect to turn to for authoritative information on their own product. I've no idea whether the information in other languages is as poor as it is in English, but it seems to me the Roller Team UK outfit needs a "fizzer" applied to it.

 

I found somewhere a claim that their products have NCC approval, which somewhat surprises me if anyone in the NCC has tried to tease out the facts necessary for making an informed choice as to the suitability of their products for personal use!

 

Of course, none of this solves the conundrum of what the 1 x15kg gas-bottle sticker on Leigh’s 707’s gas-locker door actually means.

Indeed. It's all as clear as mud! Very poor.

[Brian Kirby]

Shedifice - 2021-04-20 8:40 PM

Brian, A proper sleuth!

As far as I know 707 used to come in a 3500kg 6 belted seats or the 3650kg version with 7 belted seats.

the '19 version technically sleeps 7 but you would all have to be pretty friendly and have a couple of people who were happy pot holeing given the bed arrangement.

Apologies, you sign off as Leigh, but your profile says your real name is Conrad, so I'm only 50% confident I've been referring to you by the right name! :-)

 

Given the uncertainties, I would definitely get the van weighed fully laden a.s.a.p. (including the actual axle loads), before contemplating uprating to a higher MAM. It seems possible that you may find it becomes a costly exercise - or even that the van layout, which largely dictates the way the load is distributed within the van, defeats attempts to uprate the rear axle load (which is where I suspect the problem will arise) sufficiently to give any beneficially usable gain.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2021-04-21 11:33 AM

 

...I found somewhere a claim that their products have NCC approval, which somewhat surprises me if anyone in the NCC has tried to tease out the facts necessary for making an informed choice as to the suitability of their products for personal use!...

Apparently Roller Team became a NCC ‘partner’ in late-2017.

 

https://www.rollerteammotorhomes.co.uk/blog/news/roller-team-have-recently-become-an-ncc-member

 

Contact details are on this link

 

https://www.rollerteammotorhomes.co.uk/contact-us

 

and an email enquiring about the significance of the 1 x 15kg gas-locker door sign MIGHT be productive.

 

(I remember - many years ago - contacting Auto-Trail who were handling the importation of CI-branded motorhomes (CI later morphed into Roller Team). An O&AL forum-member with a CI motorhome could not understand its control-panel’s operation, had no instructions for it and use of the internet to store publicly accessible documentation was still in its infancy. Auto-Trail sent me hard-copy instructions for the panel IN ITALIAN and, when I translated those instructions, I found several critical errors. Eventually I was able to answer the forum-member’s questions, but it was hard going getting there.)

[Shedifice]

Brian,

 

I mainly use leigh but Conrad is another of my names I sometimes use on forums. I'll respond to both in a bar :)

[Derek Uzzell]

Suggest you use the Forum Control Panel to edit the ‘Real Name’ field in your forum Profile so that it reads “Leigh” instead of “Conrad”. That would avoid the potential mix-up Brian has mentioned.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-04-21 1:51 PM............................and an email enquiring about the significance of the 1 x 15kg gas-locker door sign MIGHT be productive.

 

(I remember - many years ago - contacting Auto-Trail who were handling the importation of CI-branded motorhomes (CI later morphed into Roller Team). An O&AL forum-member with a CI motorhome could not understand its control-panel’s operation, had no instructions for it and use of the internet to store publicly accessible documentation was still in its infancy. Auto-Trail sent me hard-copy instructions for the panel IN ITALIAN and, when I translated those instructions, I found several critical errors. Eventually I was able to answer the forum-member’s questions, but it was hard going getting there.)

An e-mail would probably be more productive than 'phoning - assuming a reply is forthcoming - as a "written" response should receive more care than a (probably) anonymous 'phone call. After all, both side then have a copy of the question and the answer, plus date, time, and author of both. Even better if the e-mail contains the vehicle VIN, or Roller Team "build number", so that it is product specific and from an owner. ;-)

 

What is odd is that Roller Team are part of Groupe Trigano (along with Auto Sleeper and Auto Trail in UK) - which seems to own that half of the European motorhome producers that Hymer doesn't own - some of whose companies seem to produce reasonably comprehensive and competent sales and technical data for their products. I'd have hoped a little "group quality control" might have been applied, but it seems not. Must be very frustrating for owners and would be buyers alike.