Autosleeper Windsor Coachbuilt - rear wheel removal to clear body - How please ?

[mike 202]

Morning all,

 

I need to remove the passenger side rear wheel of my A/S Windsor. My concern is how I clear the bodywork and where I put the jack. Do I put the jack under the axle or do I need to jack the chassis up thereby effectively dropping the rear axle and providing more clearance.

I realise that I can go to either Ford or a tyre specialist to resolve my immediate problem, but when touring Europe in remote areas I may have no choice but to do it myself.

So, Please has anyone either done it or know how to do it ?

 

Thanks Mike

[pepe63xnotuse]

I would assume you'd need to jack the chassis up and let the wheel/axle drop...

 

..I suppose a worst case scenario,may mean needing to position an additional jack between the top of the axle-underside of chassis rail,to push the wheel down still further..?

(..although you'd need to note whether the damper or brake hose clips needed releasing..)

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The jacking procedure is described in Ford's Transit Owner's Guide (which I assume you've got). If you check in that booklet I believe you'll find that, for RWD Transits, the rear jacking-point is on the axle-tube below the rear spring as near to the vehicle side being jacked as possible. (That's what it says in my Transit Mk 6 Guide, and I expect it's the same for your Mk 7.) If you used the Ford-supplied jack, you'd probably have to operate it from the rear of the motorhome.

 

Photos of the Windsor suggest that there's a reasonable amount of clearance around the rear wheels, but the only way to be certain how straightforward it will be to change a rear wheel is to try it. As you are clearly aware, if you lift the vehicle by jacking under the rear axle, the wheel will tend to move upwards into the space behind the top of the wheel-arch. Once the wheel is off the ground, how easy it will then be to remove it from the axle-hub will depend on the design of the wheel-arch 'box' and hub. Transits have studs securing their wheels, not bolts, and a wheel needs to be manoeuvred outwards and off those studs to remove it. With a light-commercial Transit this is no problem, as a rear wheel can simply be pulled sideways, but this may not be possible with a Transit-based coachbuilt motorhome.

 

It was somtimes suggested with Transit Mk 5-based RWD Heralds that two large trolley-jacks be employed to change a rear wheel - one to raise the axle and the other to lift the chassis to gain under-wheel-arch clearance. I was (just) able to change a rear wheel on my Herald employing the standard Ford jack under the rear axle and using a peculiar technique that involved pushing the bottom of the wheel towards the centre of the vehicle to allow the wheel to clear the wheel-studs. It was no fun and, although I did it several times at home without maiming myself, I would not have wanted to try it in an emergency.

 

I can't change a rear wheel on my Transit Mk 6-based FWD Hobby using Ford's recommended method, so I jack under the rear leaf spring close to the spring's front attachment-to-chassis point. This minimises the upwards movement of the rear wheel into the under-wheel-arch space, but it puts a lot of load on the spring. Not sure if you could (or should) use this 'ploy' with your Windsor.

[Tracker]

If you have the payload and space I would suggest the added security of carrying a trolley jack might be worthy of consideration - and/or a hydraulic bottle jack just in case you need to wok on uneven or sloping ground?

 

Many people don't bother and instead rely on a breakdown service to assist but we too always prefer to sort ourselves out if we can. It's all part of the fun!!

[Brian Kirby]

If your van has the Ford supplied scissor jack, I would add that trying to raise a laden van with one of these feels a bit suicidal. In simple terms, depending how heavily your van loads it rear axle, the jack is barely adequate in ideal conditions (IMO inadequate) and would be very hairy indeed at a roadside. My suggestion would be to abandon the Ford jack, and get a 4 tonne hydraulic bottle jack from Halfords or similar. If yours has the jack in an EPS box in a cubby hole in the cab door step, a little Stanley knife surgery should modify the box to accommodate the bottle jack in lieu (at least, it did with ours!). The bottle jack is easier to position, far easier to raise, and permits great precision of lowering rate and amount. You will also need a decent sturdy timber block on which to sit the jack base if ground is uneven or soft.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Binning the original jack is a good idea Brian..

 

I'd forgot(forgotten?),that the jack we had with our '03 Duetto was made from something akin to cheese(..and not even a stoat chedder either ..more a squidgy Brie *-) )

 

..When changing the wheel after a pucture on the outskirts of Lincoln,I twisted the the "drive washer/lug" off the end of the jack... :-S

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

On my Elnagh CB it was an impossibility without a serious garage trolley jack to lift the chassis, even then it was a struggle for the fitter with very little clearance, it's a no brainer for me, you say you'd have no choice in Europe, of course you would, get comprehensive European breakdown, a very wise thing to do in any event ( I'm insured with Safeguard which includes this) why would anyone want the hassle themselves struggling with a bottle jack etc to lift a vehicle probably in excess of 3.5 ton, you could do yourself some serious harm if it all goes pear shape ! !

 

Maybe a tin of that goo stuff could get you out of a hole in a remote spot, I've no experience of it though, perhaps others have.

[pepe63xnotuse]

1footinthegrave - 2012-12-10 11:41 AM

 

...get comprehensive European breakdown, a very wise thing to do in any event ( I'm insured with Safeguard which includes this) why would anyone want the hassle themselves struggling with a bottle jack etc to lift a vehicle probably in excess of 3.5 ton, you could do yourself some serious harm if it all goes pear shape ! !

 

I'd probably agree with that..

..and at least you'll have a spare wheel with you Mike...a good many haven't even got that ;-)

 

 

[George Collings]

If there is nothing on the subject in the conversion handbook I suggest a call to Autosleepers might prove fruitfull.

 

Ford have no control over the designs of the convertor .

[mike 202]

Hi and thank you all for your comments.

 

I have taken notice of them and have booked the van into my Ford main dealer motorhome friendly garage who service it. They have quoted 1/2 hour £35+Vat to change the new spare for the NSR and place it back in the cradle. Just been out to the van and my wife noticed that the reverse light was not working, so they are looking at that as well.

I do have full continental cover via Caravanguard, but was merely wanting to be able to change the wheel if I was in the back of beyond at some ungodly hour on a Spanish or other country Bank or religious holiday.

The tyres are filled with Puncture Seal as well. So fingers crossed I should never need the jack, but of course "Sod's" law usually applies to me.

Once again thanks for the quick and informative replies - much appreciated.

 

Mike

[Derek Uzzell]

George Collings - 2012-12-10 1:33 PM

 

If there is nothing on the subject in the conversion handbook I suggest a call to Autosleepers might prove fruitfull.

 

Ford have no control over the designs of the convertor .

 

If the conversion handbook for a 2008 Windsor matches the handbook for a 2012 Windrush, Auto-Sleepers's advice on wheel-changing will be as follows:

 

"Changing a Wheel --- Refer to the vehicle handbook.

 

Jacking --- Front and Rear - use the standard jacking points as per the base vehicle handbook."

 

This issue was discussed in 2009. See

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Auto-Sleeper-Ravenna-Rienza-rear-wheel-removal/17345/

 

Unless a jack (be it Ford's standard jack or any other type) is positioned beneath a strong-point like a RWD Transit's rear-axle tube, there's a risk of damage resulting to the vehicle's chassis or suspension.

 

When the wheel to be changed is lifted clear of the ground by jacking beneath the axle tube, if the wheel-arch interferes you are stuck. The solution then would be to use a 2nd jack to raise the chassis a sufficient distance to overcome the wheel-arch interference.

 

An alternative 'one-jack-only' scenario would involve jacking beneath the chassis (or leaf-spring eye) so that the wheel hangs down. However, to allow the wheel to come clear of the ground so that it can be changed would demand a jack with a very high lifting capability.

 

In the 2009 forum thread "Motorhomer" (no longer an active forum participant it seems) said that Auto-Sleepers had advised him how to change a rear wheel and reassured him that the technique they recommended worked. That he then asked about this on the forum suggests a) that he wasn't totally convinced and b) that he'd never tried using the Auto-Sleepers method (whatever that was!)

 

There as photos of a (2009) Transit Mk 7-based A-S Windsor here

 

http://www.motorhomes.mobi/Motorhomes/tabid/95/ItemID/23222/Motorhome/Auto-Sleepers-Windsor/Default.aspx

 

It will be noted that the rear wheels are set well in from the body-sides and the top of the rear wheel arch does not overly mask the top of the wheel. (Of course, when the motorhome is fully loaded, the 'masking' will increase as load goes on to the rear springs.)

 

It may be that, even fully loaded, when jacked beneath the rear-axle tube so that the wheel clears the ground, it may be straightforward (or at least practicable) to remove a Windsor's rear wheel using just one jack. But, if I were contemplating ever having to DIY the task, I'd want to experiment in advance to confirm what the task entailed and how best to perform it.

 

[mike 202]

Wheel removal problem will be resolved by Ford. Thanks for your help. I am also lookin fro a suitable bottle jack as recommended.

 

I also have an odd problem with the reversing light. Vehicle facing downhill on a slope, engage reverse, all ok. Vehicle on the level or facing uphill, engage reverse and the reversing light does not work.

Thoughts are :-

1. Intermittant fault on gearbox switch, caused by vehicle pointing either uphill or downhill.

2. Wiring done by A/S is to tight and position of suspension causes a wire to make or break.

 

Ford investigating - I will ask the Ford mechanic exactly where he jacked the motorhome and how he removed the wheel, ie straight off or push the tyre towards the centre line of the vehicle plus reverse light solution.

I will post results of both the tyre and reverse light as soon as I have the answers.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Wheel changing is not just a matter of jacking up the vehicle and replacing one wheel with another - it also involves deploying the spare wheel.

 

My Skoda car's spare wheel is housed within the vehicle and can be removed easily and without use of any tools, whereas my Transit-based Hobby's spare wheel is under the vehicle's floor-pan and lowered/raised via a winch/cable mechanism.

 

As I said earlier, I can't remove a rear wheel on my Hobby by following the advice in Ford's Transit handbook. Nor can I lower/raise the spare wheel by following the handbook advice and using the Ford tools supplied with the vehicle. To lower/raise the spare wheel I have needed to make a crude extension 'tool'.

 

It's things like this that make me keep harping on that, if a motorcaravanner really wants to know what will be involved in a 'no choice' DIY wheel change, he/she has to practice doing it.

 

That Brian Kirby (with his Hobby Van's spare wheel accessible in his motorhome's garage and heavy-duty jack), or me (with home-made extension tool, suicidal tendencies and plenty of practice) might consider a DIY emergency rear-wheel change on their motorhomes doesn't mean much as far as Mike changing a rear wheel on his Windsor is concerned. I suspect that, if he actually tries a practice run, he may well conclude that it's a non-starter.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-12-10 3:04 PM

It may be that, even fully loaded, when jacked beneath the rear-axle tube so that the wheel clears the ground, it may be straightforward (or at least practicable) to remove a Windsor's rear wheel using just one jack. But, if I were contemplating ever having to DIY the task, I'd want to experiment in advance to confirm what the task entailed and how best to perform it.

Me too! However, by jacking under the axle it is only necessary to lift the tyre just clear of the ground, so this should not result in the wheel getting "buried" in the wheel arch. One has to remember that lifting the flat tyre off the ground won't require as much clearance as getting the inflated (you hope! :-)) spare onto the studs. But with the wheel off, which makes access that bit easier, it should be easy to adjust the axle height to suit. That will be where the hydraulic bottle jack pays dividends.

 

These wheels weight around 25kg/50lbs, so you don't want to have to lift them too much when trying to engage the studs.

 

Remember to slightly loosen the nuts before jacking, so you don't start rocking the raised van around, and to finally torque them after the van is back on four wheels. Then, all you have to do is get the flat back where the spare came from! Good luck! :-)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Brain on our last CB, if you jacked under the axle wheel removal was impossible, it needed to be jacked from the chassis to allow the wheel to hang down, even then as stated it was a hell of a struggle for the tyre fitter. On a previous CB the use of a single bottle jack was useless as well as it simply did not have the necessary lift height, so an axle stand or similar would need to be carried as well if the tyre was totally flat, at was at this stage I thought comprehensive recovery was the best option and the bottle jack went on a car boot sale !.

 

I can understand the desire to be able to sort it yourself, but sods law say's it will be peeing down, your in good clothes, and your at the side of a busy road, and the van is fully loaded,in some cases your spare is in an under chassis cradle that you cannot reach till it's jacked up ( not for the faint hearted unless you've got a death wish ) let the experts take care of it would be my advice every time ;-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

Even if I fully intended to get the roadside assistance to change the wheel,I think I'd probably still be curious and have bash at doing it myself on the drive'..even if it was for no other reason than to establish what "procedure" does and doesn't work...and how best to minimise risk to persons and the vehicle bodywork....

Such things as: where & where not place to jack? What lift & clearance does it get?..Would it help if a block was placed between the spring an chassis,so that it could be lifted under the axle etc)..

Of cause,for "authenticity",the above should be carried out in the dark..and with the OH spraying you with the hosepipe! (lol) )

 

At the very least though,I'd want to ensure that the jack I was carrying was up to the job(...and if it was a non-standard bottle jack,depending on where is was best placed,I'd probably also look at fabricating some form of locating bracket/"shoe",so it wouldn't slip).

[Derek Uzzell]

There's a sideview photo of a Herald Templar here:

 

http://tinyurl.com/d2m3s8h

 

This is the model of motorhome I owned previously and, as I've said before, changing a rear wheel using a single Ford-standard jack was challenging and involved using a particular technique.

 

To the uninitiated it looks like a Templar rear-wheel change would be a simple matter of just removing the wheel-nuts and pulling the wheel off the hub horizontally. But it wasn't as, even when the motorhome was unloaded, the top of the wheel wouldn't quite pass the underside of the wheel-arch. Loaded, the wheel-arch 'masked' the wheel more and, if the vehicle was jacked beneath the rear-axle (which is where it should be jacked and where there's a jacking-point for the Ford-supplied jack to connect to) even more.

 

Jacking beneath the axle didn't move the wheel into the space behind the wheel-arch a huge distance, but that's really neither here nor there with a Templar. It's the shape of the space behind the wheel-arch (the "wheel box") that's the killer, as this is not much wider than the width of the tyre and restricts the wheel being moved horizontally. The ploy was to move the wheel through an arc to 'wind' it around the brake-drum and to do this the wheel needed to be well clear of the ground.

 

It's easy to hypothesize about things like this, but "in principle" and "in practice" are not the same. I removed my Herald's rear wheels several times, but always at home with the motorhome empty. Even then it was a struggle, especially replacing the wheel on the hub. Given a safe location I would probably have attempted an 'emergency' wheel change when the Herald was loaded, but I'm not sure I would have been successful. But at least the at-home wheel-changing exercises allowed me to know what was involved.

 

These photos are of a Hobby T-600FC similar to mine and show the shape of the rear wheel-arch:

 

http://www.blackcountrycaravans.co.uk/stocklist.aspx?id=997

 

Once again it would appear to be easy to remove a rear wheel, but it isn't.

 

In this instance the problem lies in the inability to attach the Ford-supplied jack to the curved 'eye' at the rear end of the leaf-spring as advised in Ford's Transit handbook. And the reason for not being able to do that is because the double-leaf springs used on this Transit FWD chassis don't have a curved rear eye to locate the jack.

 

Jacking at, or near, the axle shoves the wheel upwards into the wheel-box. The remaining option is to jack towards the front of the leaf-spring which allows the vehicle to be lifted and the rear wheel to 'droop'. This, of course, puts a LOT of weight on the jack, and a lot of pressure on the spring. I've done it once in an emergency with the Hobby fully loaded (so I'm aware I can do it if I must), but it's not a technique I'd recommend.

 

The following links are to photos of Eura Mobil Profila Alcove 660HB Transit-based motorhomes. The first vehicle is the original version where the wheel-arch massively masked the rear wheel, making wheel-changing a nightware. The second (later) vehicle has a revised wheel-arch design that doesn't mask the wheel and should make wheel-changing straightforward.

 

http://tinyurl.com/c36fmhz

 

http://tinyurl.com/ctd9m53

 

Although the scissors-style jacks supplied by Ford for my Herald and Hobby are minimalist, they are purpose-designed to attach to the jacking points defined in the Ford handbook. This is unlikely to be the case with a 'universal' jack and (as pepe63 warns) potential incompatibility between jack and vehicle needs to be considered.

[spospe]

Caveat Emptor.

 

I would not consider a 'van that I could not personally change the wheel in the event of a problem. My wife and I often travel to remote places and use 'back roads' where the chance of assistance is very low indeed.

 

Why buy a 'van with a problem?

 

As advice for the immeadiate problem, carry the biggest jack you can and lots of pieces of stout board to act as load spreaders.

[Brian Kirby]

Easily said, Michael, but how is the novice motorhomer to know changing a wheel has been made near impossible by the manufacturer of the product he proposes buying? Why on earth would he doubt that said manufacturer would have thought of that? No wonder they increasingly omit the spare wheel, in favour of a relatively useless can of gunk and an possibly unsuitable air pump! So yes, caveat emptor by all means, but it is only a fair dictum if the emptor is sufficiently knowledgeable to apply his caveat!

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Brian Kirby - 2012-12-11 4:36 PM

 

Easily said, Michael, but how is the novice motorhomer to know changing a wheel has been made near impossible by the manufacturer of the product he proposes buying? Why on earth would he doubt that said manufacturer would have thought of that? No wonder they increasingly omit the spare wheel, in favour of a relatively useless can of gunk and an possibly unsuitable air pump! So yes, caveat emptor by all means, but it is only a fair dictum if the emptor is sufficiently knowledgeable to apply his caveat!

 

Bang on the money Brian,and I can guarantee any salesman would not have a clue even if you asked, perhaps I'm weak, but even with our PVC with the all the wheels unobstructed by coachwork it still is for me at least nigh on impossible to do it unless I carried a substantial lack instead of the rubbish supplied, and on a coach built I would not even attempt it, if I was somewhere remote I'd start walking, or start sending SOS smoke signals. ;-)

[spospe]

Brian Kirby - 2012-12-11 4:36 PM

 

Easily said, Michael, but how is the novice motorhomer to know changing a wheel has been made near impossible by the manufacturer of the product he proposes buying? Why on earth would he doubt that said manufacturer would have thought of that? No wonder they increasingly omit the spare wheel, in favour of a relatively useless can of gunk and an possibly unsuitable air pump! So yes, caveat emptor by all means, but it is only a fair dictum if the emptor is sufficiently knowledgeable to apply his caveat!

 

I don't agree with you Brian

 

Anyone with a functioning brain cell can use his / her eyes and ask questions. The buyer is spending a large amount of money and assuming that they have had the brain power to accumulate it first, then they should look long and hard before spending it.

 

Caveat Emptor!

 

[Brian Kirby]

Hmmmm! So what about those who can't even change a wheel on a car unaided?

 

Besides which, you seem to assume their functioning brain cell will have been at least partially devoted to matters automotive. Instead, it may have been devoted to things distinctly non-automotive. For many, automotive things are a foreign land.

 

If one doesn't realise a motorhome wheel weighs around 50lbs, one is unlikely to anticipate the problem of extracting the spare from its hidey-hole - especially if the flat is at the rear so that access is restricted. So, I'm afraid I still think you are being harsh in your expectations of the novice.

 

I am also tempted to ask what makes you think there is a natural link between intelligence and the possession of sufficient cash to buy motorhomes. So tempted, in fact, that I will! So, is there? The evidence is not that compelling, m'Lud. :-D

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Replying to Spose

 

I guarantee the average salesman would look at you as if you were from another planet if you asked how to change a wheel, or better still demonstrate how, in my experience they may as well be selling cardboard boxes for all the product knowledge they show. Recently when thinking of changing my van with a major dealer the salesman did not even know about Gel batteries, sorry but how to change a wheel, don't make me laugh . :D

[spospe]

Brian Kirby - 2012-12-11 6:36 PM

I am also tempted to ask what makes you think there is a natural link between intelligence and the possession of sufficient cash to buy motorhomes. So tempted, in fact, that I will! So, is there? The evidence is not that compelling, m'Lud. :-D

 

There is no insoluble link, but there is a link. Unless one has been bequeathed money, or wins it in a competition, there is some evidence that money = some acumen in the acquiring of it, which in turn indicates some common sense.

 

I am going to stop here, because this thread was started about how to change a wheel on a motorcaravan that the stupid and / or cynical manufacturers produced without making adequate provision for such a simple event.

 

Manufacturers stupid or cynical? Don't know, but, yet again: Caveat Emptor!

 

[spospe]

1footinthegrave - 2012-12-11 6:41 PM

 

Replying to Spose

 

I guarantee the average salesman would look at you as if you were from another planet if you asked how to change a wheel, or better still demonstrate how, in my experience they may as well be selling cardboard boxes for all the product knowledge they show. Recently when thinking of changing my van with a major dealer the salesman did not even know about Gel batteries, sorry but how to change a wheel, don't make me laugh . :D

 

Not in my experience 1foot, the ones that I have dealt with at Todds and Spinney are well clued up.