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Banner Batteries Knackered After < 6 Months


veletron

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Hi

 

I have a pair of 110AH Banner batteries in a new motorhome. One was supplied with the van, one was fitted by myself upon receipt of the van. They are identical batteries.

 

If these are fully charged (voltage after 2hrs rest reading 12.8V+), and I apply a load during a nights wild camping, these will go down to 12.2V (measured following morning with no-load). I have a BM100 AH counter fitted, this reckons that I removed just 22AH from the batteries during this time. I would expect the voltage to be 12.5V+ still ? My multimeter concurs with the reading on the BM100, I have isolated each battery in turn, they both read the same voltage.

 

I have also connected the batteries together with an ammeter in a no-load situation - negligible current is flowing between the two.

 

I have a Sterling B2B set at 14.4V max to avoid too much gassing. I have checked the plates and they were well covered with acid. The batteries have never been taken below 12.2V == about 40% SOC.

 

They might have been like this from the start, but I have only noticed now that the weather is cooler and the heater is running.

 

In another test, if I return from a trip (batteries fully charged, resting voltage at 12.8V), and abandon the van for a week on the driveway, then when I come to use it 5 days later, the voltage will have dropped to 12.2/12.3V There is a load of 300mA on the batteries from the control panel etc. Sunday night through friday night @ 300mA = 36AH eg no where near enough to pull the batteries down to 12.3V. And that does not take into account the 200W solar panel on the roof. I can reduce this drain to <50mA by turning off the control panel - this was just for testing purposes.

 

So, are my banners knackered after just 6 months use? Has anyone else had sub-par performance from banner batteries? Has anyone managed to claim on the '4 year warranty' ?

 

I have previously had 3x85AH banners in a different vehicle and these were fine.

 

Given my experience with these, can anyone recommend an alternative? These for instance? http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/leoch-160ah-agm-leisure-battery/

 

Nigel

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My first thought is that one is duff, and is dragging the other down with it. You may have bought a new van, but do you know how old the fitted battery was when you got the van? The usual recommendation is that paired batteries should be of the same age. Would this be the case? Have you tried connection only one battery at a time, with the solar disconnected, to see how well each, individually, holds charge and will sustain load? That may indicate where the problem lies.
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Hi

 

Aye, I don't know how old, or how badly treated prior to my taking possession the battery supplied with the van was. Its the fact that the voltage on each battery matches, and that there is no current passing between them that makes me think that is not the issue. Easy to test though so will do a run, down test 2A for 5hrs one evening, on each battery separately - I have a load of power resistors on a heatsink for this purpose I made previously. This should hardly even make a dent in the battery - eg I would expect 12.6V+ after the test.

 

As for the B2B, these isolate the starter/leisure battery, and I have disconnected the B2B and switched the Van's built in charging back on again by way of a test. The B2B gives me roughly 20A extra charge when the batts are 'flat' vs the built in charger which never did more than 25A. The BM100 also tells me the current going into/out from the leisure battery and this is all 'explainable'.

 

Cheers for your input folks.

 

Nigel

 

 

 

 

 

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Banner batteries are absolute crap, both my Banner AGM batteries failed after 18 months, similar to yours. I tested them individually one was good for 10 A/H the other 12 A/H. I have just replaced them with a pair Sonnenchine Gel's. If you search the German forums loads of reports on Banner batteries dying in less than 2 years.

 

Hymer wouldn't accept a claim on them as they pass the CCA test which is a starter battery test, Banner use the same test for claims so I don't think you will have much luck with Banner.

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Tracker - 2015-11-24 1:50 PM

 

Have you spoken to the motorhome supplying dealer, the people you bought the second battery from and/or Banner and asked for their views as you seem to know your facts and have enough evidence to present your case fully?

 

Our local Hymer dealer will replace batteries in vans they sold and take the hit as Hymer won't accept the claim, I could have gone back to my Dealer, but didn't think it was worth the trouble of a trip to Belgium just to have the batteries replaced with ones that are likely to fail in the next year.

 

In Nigel's case worth going back to the dealer, but he probably wouldn't want them replaced with Banner which might cause a problem.

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lennyhb - 2015-11-24 2:03 PM

In Nigel's case worth going back to the dealer, but he probably wouldn't want them replaced with Banner which might cause a problem.

[/quote

 

Quite possibly, but until he talks to them he won't know!

 

I don't know if a decent Bosch or Varta battery is less expensive than a Banner but if the dealer can save a few quid I expect they would be happy with that, as might the supplier of the second battery?

 

That said, leisure battery problems and lack of capacity are very common and maybe it has more to do with the 'VW syndrome' of makers overstating their products capablities to gain sales given that most buyers will never check or even know how to?

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Dealer was highbridge, van is a Campereve 643. Second battery was from Alpha Batteries, I believe. I no longer know which is which! I'll do a rundown test 1st see whether its both that are dead.

 

MMM have been recommending Banner along with Varta/Exide as a true 'leisure battery'. Maybe battery quality is going downhill.

 

Nigel

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The batteries get a lot of recommendations in lots of places yet there has never been a scientific test showing they are superior to any other battery. The technology inside the battery is nothing special to suggest that they would out perform others.

We see Banner batteries fail prematurely on a regular basis, and have stated on this Forum that we don't rate them. We even started up an 'AGM Battery' page on the website because we saw so many Banner AGM batteries fail in a very short time then take out the charging unit.

 

It is not good for you guys that you are seeing the same results, but reassuring for us.

 

We do rate the Varta Silvers very highly. They last a long time, are very kind on all the charging systems Solar/Alternator/Mains.

 

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I mentioned that I was going to buy Banner Batteries for the motorhome to a mechanic in a marine/car repair shop and he said not to touch them because they need a special charger and they have had a load of trouble with them. I will carry on buying cheepos and take my chances with them as I have done in the past.

 

 

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Interesting!

We've just had a Varta leisure battery (not Silver) fail after 2 yr 8 months, and had it replaced under warranty. We were offered, and accepted, replacing the 2nd LB at cost to match it. Varta Silver won't fit physically, unfortunately, and I asked dealer about Banners. They were not complimentary, saying they'd had problems, and recommended Yuasa, which were cheaper.

Will be interested to see how they perform.

 

 

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We have two of these Hankook leisure batteries and whilst they have only been in use for 6 months they do seem to work well enough plus they came with a four year warranty, although if push comes to shove I do have to wonder how much that would be worth in the real world!

 

I did have similar batteries on a boat a few years back and they stood up well to the abuse of going flat over time due to alarm and auto bilge pump followed by jump starting and rapid recharging by the alternator.

 

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/XV27MF/

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I purchased a couple of Banner 90Ah AGM batteries less than 3 years ago and the performance has been less than satisfactory.

 

Shortly after the purchase, I bought a NASA BM-1 battery monitor to check if I had a massive electrical leak somewhere in the system. Nothing was revealed, apart from a 300mA drain from the control panel and fridge and nothing untoward when other appliances were activated.

 

We can now survive off-grid for one day but any more than that is pushing it (ie. down to 50% state of charge).

 

The Banner 3 year warranty is not worth the paper it is written on, unless there was a catastrophic failure.

 

By comparison, my previous van (Hymer) on 2 Gel batteries, of similar capacity, would run for at least 4 days without hook-up.

 

I therefore conclude that either the Banner batteries are not fit for purpose, my CBE charging system (set to Gel) is inadequate OR, most likely, a combination of the two.

 

Thanks to aandcaravans (hope I've got the spelling correct) for the heads-up regarding the AGM charging characteristics and the possible impact on the charger unit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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It was only because our van came with one almost new Hankook that I bought a second plus it was a good price!

 

If not I would have bought two Varta or Bosch simple inexpensive well proven reliable dependable flooded lead acid batteries.

 

Why do we need to overcomplicate the simple matter of providing reliable 12 vold power with fancy products?

 

A triumph of marketing over function maybe?

 

I suspect that, as with much fishing tackle much of it is designed to catch more fishermen than fish!

 

Not so many years ago when cash was tighter I used to go to a scrap yard and buy a couple of half decent used truck batteries for around ten to twenty quid each for my leisure batteries whenever we changed vans and I had far less grief from 12 volt power than I have had in recent years using the alleged 'correct' product!

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Hi

 

Mine are charging now ready for a test. I have a 1kw inverter back wired via a changeover relay to all the sockets in the van. My plan is to use a mains lamp, 40W which should, after conversion losses create a 5A load. I have switched fuses on the leisure batteries so can switch one out, and just run the lamp for 2hrs on each battery. I'll note the end voltages once the batteries have 'rested' - along with the AH drawn as displayed on BM100.

 

I use my vans to ski from, and need to run heating from the leisure batteries for 3 days without moving. Used to manage this on old van with 3xbanner 85AH just fine. As we all know, solar is next to useless in the winter.

 

Batteries were on 12.3V prior to starting the charge via hookup. I note that each battery was drawing just 5A. The charger is capable of 15A, and given the state of charge that 12.3V represents (~50%), these batteries should have been pulling the full 15A available. I think this proves that batteries are knackered before I even start the discharge test!

 

Nigel

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On the subject of buying old batteries from a scrap yard if you were lucky and got a 'good un' it might have worked very well. Some Truck batteries had massive plates to cope with old Diesel engines that might take forever to start. Remember how it was common to crank a 1970's Diesel for about 30secs before it fired up in a cloud of smoke?

 

So I can see why they worked well, however, prior to about 2004 Motorhome/Caravan chargers were relatively low tech. The charging rate was low, sometimes as little as 8 amps and they wouldn't cope very well with a big battery. But they were really tough, tolerating some quite poor batteries.

 

Modern chargers are designed to give much higher charge rates in a smaller package, and balance better the transition between full charge and a maintenance charge.

The downside is that they are less tolerant of a poor battery and if asked to charge one up are likely to just pop.

 

Our mechanic is mates with a Truck mechanic and he was commenting that Truck batteries are getting smaller, a side effect of faster starting Diesel engines.

When the engines do start to play up the battery is often a casualty as a result of the 'unplanned' load.

 

 

 

 

 

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So, results from battery 1 inconclusive:

 

10A load for an hour, 10AH removed from battery. On-Load voltage fell to 11.83V. I Let the battery rest for a couple of hours and measured off-load voltage at 12.45V I believe 12.45V represents about 60% SOC, but the various voltage/SOC graphs online disagree with one another. After removing 10AH, the battery should be at 90% SOC, but that's not taking into account the relatively high 10A discharge rate. (The 110AH capacity of my banner's is at the 100hr rate - see peukert's law).

 

I have done exactly the same experiment with the other battery so we will see if that fared better or worse when I measure its off-load voltage tomorrow morning after it has 'rested'.

 

Nigel

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veletron - 2015-11-24 12:09 PM

 

Has anyone managed to claim on the '4 year warranty' ?

 

Mine isn't a Banner but one of these; http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/leisure-batteries/125-ah-xplorer-leisure-battery/ which, as a friend of mine also wanted one, we bought as a pair from his ebay shop (same dealer) forr £75 each http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEAL-PAIR-2-X-XPLORER-125AH-HEAVY-DUTY-LEISURE-BATTERY-/120734871401?hash=item1c1c5bef69

 

After three years mine recently went kaput.....but the battery itself wasn't at fault. Unknown to me a fuse had gone and i ended up running the battery right down. *-)

 

Battery Man exchanged it for a brand new one. No hassle no fuss. :-D

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veletron - 2015-11-24 5:57 PM

 

Dealer was highbridge, van is a Campereve 643. Second battery was from Alpha Batteries, I believe. I no longer know which is which! I'll do a rundown test 1st see whether its both that are dead.

 

MMM have been recommending Banner along with Varta/Exide as a true 'leisure battery'. Maybe battery quality is going downhill.

 

Nigel

 

In this October forum thread you described your motorhome (purchased in June 2015) and detailed the numerous modifications you had made.

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Rapido-v56/39654/

 

I don’t know what the terms and conditions of the Campérêve warranty are or what the documentation says, but my similar-age Rapido User Manual advises that “a well-maintained battery has a lifetime of about 3 years”.

 

I think Campérêve will have fitted a Nordelettronica-based electrical charging/control system and I’m guessing that you have Banner “Energy Bull” 95751 (100Ah K20) batteries. This Banner battery is standard original equipment for the full range of Rapido motorhomes and has been for some years. Aandncaravan states earlier that "We see Banner batteries fail prematurely on a regular basis” (and I’ve no reason to doubt this) but literally thousands of “Energy Bull” 95751 batteries will have been fitted to Rapido motorhomes and if these batteries have been proving generally problematical, or a significant percentage of them have been failing within, say, two years, I would have expected there to be lots of complaints about this from Rapido owners on motorhome forums - this does not appear to be the case.

 

It’s not practicable to immediately identify the age of a Banner battery visually, but there should be a bar-code label on the battery’s casing and Banner may well be able to say when your batteries were made and (possibly) which one would have been original equipment and which one you bought from Alpha Batteries. It should be expected that premature failure of the original battery should be dealt with under the Campérêve warranty, and that failure of the battery you added subsequently should be addressed via Alpha Batteries.

 

As Tracker has asked - have you informed Highbridge Caravans about this?

 

If my 6 months-old Rapido’s Banner 95751 battery failed well within Rapido’s 2-year warranty period I’d be seeking a replacement through Highbridge Caravans (who also supplied my motorhome). An obvious snag with you doing similarly is that your vehicle’s electrical system has been substantially modified and it would be easy enough to argue that those changes could have adversely affected the batteries. If Highbridge Caravans had installed the B2B charger, solar panels, 2nd battery, etc. the responsibility for your battery problems could be laid at their door, but you chose the DIY route.

 

However, as you are pretty confident there’s something wrong with one (or both) of your batteries (otherwise you would not have posted to this forum) and you bought the motorhome recently from Highbridge Caravans, it would be logical to tell them about the problem and ask for a new battery. As Tracker has said earlier, if you don’t talk to Highbridge Caravans you won’t know what their attitude will be.

 

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Hi,

 

So second battery after rest is 12.57V which is what one would expect after drawing 10AH at 10 hr rate. I suspect my issue is as per 1st response, one battery weaker than the other. One is showing 75%+ SOC while the other is showing 50% SOC after drawing 10AH from each.

 

I have no problem with Highbridge at all - they have been 'good', in fact overall, I would recommend them despite late delivery which seemed to afrect most marques this season gone.

 

Aye, I have done extensive mods, and indeed, it could be argued that I am the cause. Its not as if I am not qualified (I am an electronics engineer), and had I got highbridge to do the work I did myself, they would have wanted way more than the cost of a new banner!!

 

Nigel

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My tests show that there is an issue with what I believe to be the battery supplied with the van. The battery from alpha shows a significantly higher SOC after running identical tests on each. The difference in SOC from the seemingly small difference in rested voltage, 12.57 vs 12.43 is actually marked - 75%+ vs 50%. The healthy battery will be supplying more juice than the less healthy battery which is the root cause of my issues.

 

I would guess that the van battery was left to run flat, and was hence damaged pre delivery.

 

Like you suggest, I will now contact highbridge, I live in Stirling though, and the hassle of shipping the battery to them for test + convincing them that it was not my mods that caused the issue means that I am prepared to cough up myself if I have to!

 

*************************************

 

For anyone reading this thread, considering a banner battery, its only fair to point out that my tests would appear to point to miss treatment of the battery rather than an issue with it.

 

*************************************

 

Nigel

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veletron - 2015-11-26 11:41 AM

 

My tests show that there is an issue with what I believe to be the battery supplied with the van. The battery from alpha shows a significantly higher SOC after running identical tests on each. The difference in SOC from the seemingly small difference in rested voltage, 12.57 vs 12.43 is actually marked - 75%+ vs 50%. The healthy battery will be supplying more juice than the less healthy battery which is the root cause of my issues.

 

I would guess that the van battery was left to run flat, and was hence damaged pre delivery.

 

Like you suggest, I will now contact highbridge, I live in Stirling though, and the hassle of shipping the battery to them for test + convincing them that it was not my mods that caused the issue means that I am prepared to cough up myself if I have to!

 

*************************************

 

For anyone reading this thread, considering a banner battery, its only fair to point out that my tests would appear to point to miss treatment of the battery rather than an issue with it.

 

*************************************

 

Nigel

Whatever is wrong with the failed battery may also have affected the charge level achieved by the good battery, so you may be seeing a double consequence of the failure. Your point regarding the original battery being left uncharged for an extended period seems one possible explanation. However, as you say delivery was delayed, that suggests to me that it came to you very soon after being completed by Campreve. So, less chance that the battery was allowed to fully discharge, and then left in that state.

 

Unless you are able to somehow identify which battery is which, possibly from markings on the battery label, or from any detail included by Alpha on their invoice, there is only a 50/50 chance that either supplier supplied the dud. If Alpha are nearer to you than Highbridge, might it be worth putting this to them first, and asking if they are prepared to put the battery on test and verify for themselves that it has failed, and then pursue the failure under Banner's warranty? If Banner accept liability, you should get a new battery. If they don't, see if Alpha will supply a replacement at 50% discount which, under the circumstances seems fair. You might also approach Highbridge on the same basis, to see if they will stump up the other 50%. After, one or other sold a dud battery.

 

Of course, you might decide it is all too much faff, and just see if wither will offer a replacement at a decent discount! :-D I would however, advise, as I'm sure you already know, that you verify that the replacement, wherever it is sourced, is not one that has been sitting on someone's shelf for the last couple of years. Banner should be able to tell you how tell the date of manufacture, if it isn't clear.

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Reproduced from www.bannerbatteries.com -

 

Can I determine the date of manufacture of my Banner battery?

 

The physical age of a battery has only very limited significance with regard to its service life and health. For this reason, the coding stamp on Banner batteries does not provide any self-explanatory conclusions regarding their age.

 

Decisive is not the date of manufacture, but rather that of vehicle start-up, as only then does the starter battery become subject to loads and the electrochemical wear process begin.

 

As long as it is maintained in a charged condition, which is the certainly the case of Banner and its contracted retailers, a battery does not “age” in the period between production and sale.

Battery life is determined to a far greater extent by the number of charging and discharging cycles than it is by physical age.

Therefore, the only documentation for a warranty and guarantee is the dated battery purchase receipt.

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To comment on the information from the Banner web site that a battery doesn't age until it's used, goes against everything we have heard from other battery manufacturers. And against which is generally held to be true.

 

Most batteries used in Motorhomes are made using large amounts of Lead everyone has seen how lead goes from a Bright shiny Silver to a tarnished/corroded dull grey in days. That occurs with age, but is accelerated by usage. That same corrosion happens inside a battery creating issues.

 

All the battery sellers that we know, rely upon selling a battery before it deteriorates as they just don't have the facilities to charge a large number of batteries on a regular basis. Has anyone ever gone into a battery retailers or wholesalers and seen banks of batteries on charge while in storage?

 

We recently worked on a vehicle where the battery was past it, it took a long time to show the owner that was the case as he had only purchased it 7 months previously and could not believe it was the cause of his issues.

 

When we removed it, he checked the manufacture date to find it was manufactured 2 years previously. The battery supplier gave a full refund as the claim had evidence to back it up. Without that 'public' manufacture date, could the retailer just put it down to 'self inflicted damage' and reject the claim?

 

Battery manufacture dates are important for the consumer, we applaud those companies that are open in this respect.

 

 

 

.

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