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Bio Diesel


Clyde

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Anyone tried either a Bio-Diesel or Veggie oil in a Fiat Duato JTD engine?

Just thinking with all these price rises, we're gonna have to start thinking out of the box, or rethink the whole 'Diesel is Better than Petrol' theory so we can convert to LPG or other home brew substance.

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I make my own Biodiesel and run my 2.0 JTD ducato on a 30% bio mix. It works well. Runs quieter, more power and better mileage not to mention massive cost saving.

 

With high pressure common rail injection you must have good quality processed veggi oil (biodiesel) and should not run on straight veggie oil.

 

Its not difficult to make at all. Bit messy but very straight forward and simple once you have learned how to do it. You can also make it with very little equipment..just some large containers, few lenghts of PVC tubing and a small hand pump - I use a 'home made wine' decanting pump/syphon.

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Hi Brambles.

I have a plant not 10 miles from me who specialise in bio diesel. Aparrantly they do rapeseed oil? (excuse spelling) Could you run a van just on that? or would you need to mix with say 50/50 esso type diesel? They are chargin 1.05 per litre and suggesting, no mods needed and as good as what you get from the pump? whats your thoughts?

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Brambles - 2008-05-27 10:51 PM

 

I make my own Biodiesel and run my 2.0 JTD ducato on a 30% bio mix. It works well. Runs quieter, more power and better mileage not to mention massive cost saving.

 

With high pressure common rail injection you must have good quality processed veggi oil (biodiesel) and should not run on straight veggie oil.

 

Its not difficult to make at all. Bit messy but very straight forward and simple once you have learned how to do it. You can also make it with very little equipment..just some large containers, few lenghts of PVC tubing and a small hand pump - I use a 'home made wine' decanting pump/syphon.

I would be careful what you say, you never know who reads these forums. You are breaking the law if you are not paying fuel duty.

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Hi,

Yes you can, but from the tests I have done on my 2.0JTD, I found the power available started to drop off a bit when between 30 to 50% mix being quite noticeable at 50% mix and more. With a larger engine this would not matter so much but with a large Motorhome and 2.0 litre you really need the edge on the power. Having said that, some users claim it makes no diference.

 

One of the problems if you have been running on dino fuel for a long time is it is pretty filthy stuff and your fuel tank and pipes get a layer of dirt building up. The natural cleaning effect of Biodiesel will shift all this muck and it gets caught in your fuel fillter so when changing over you need to also change your fuel filter after a short while. All depends on quality of fuel you have been using and how much and tends to be on higher mileage vehicles.

In winter or cold weather it is also preferable to have a mix as some biodiesel can solidify at low temps, but if your local chap is making from rapeseed oil it should be down at a few degrees or less. Adding mineral diesel drops the temp lower. For summer no probs.

 

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"I would be careful what you say, you never know who reads these forums. You are breaking the law if you are not paying fuel duty."

 

This is NOT true. I am not breaking the law and niether are other people who make up to 2500 litres a year.

 

Jon.

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I'm full of admiration for those of you who are (legally) seeking to beat the system.

 

But what a sad state of affairs it is when we are having to go to these lengths rather than just pull up at the petrol station and fill up.

 

2nd rant on this matter for today over with.

 

Martyn

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My Fiat 2.8JTD powered Rapido is currently running on bio-diesel at a 50% mix supplied by Silver Group who have a depot in Banbury. (www.thesilvergroup.co.uk) not a great deal cheaper but every little helps. Power etc are unchanged from standard diesel only change is a "frying tonight" smell. Check it out to see if there is a supply in your area. At the current price of vegetable oil doesn't seem to me to be worth adding unprocessed veggie oil to you diesel and used oil will require processing. I have read that as long as you register with HM customs you can use 1200 litres of veggie oil without running foul of the law but I'd check it out first and as I said it's hardly worth it at current prices. One last thought; as most motorhomes reputedly only cover circa 4,000 miles per year is this a big problem or not?

 

Bill Ord

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Bill Ord - 2008-05-28 10:14 AM

 

I have read that as long as you register with HM customs you can use 1200 litres of veggie oil without running foul of the law but I'd check it out first and as I said it's hardly worth it at current prices. One last thought; as most motorhomes reputedly only cover circa 4,000 miles per year is this a big problem or not?

 

Bill Ord

 

Hi Bill,

 

As I understand it, also see the site as suggested on my previous post this has been changed you can use 2500 litres and you no longer have to register with Customs.

Some of us do far more milage than that, for instance we have covered 11000 in a year and currently have averaged 9000 per year.

 

Bas

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There is plenty of info on the HM Revenue & Customs web site, and it takes a fair amount of time to sift through it all, but following what I had previously heard (the magic 2,500 L) and what is posted above, check this link out:-

 

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000205&propertyType=document

 

All that needs to go on one line in your web browser !

 

It seems, as a 'fuel producer' you don't pay tax, but should still account on the volume produced up to 2500L.

However, I get the distinct impression, that as a 'user' you still have to pay 28.35p / litre to use it for a road vehicle.

 

Other info:-

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Tax-on-Biofuels.htm

 

Ultimately my question was about the viability of running it in my unit, I kind of asumed I would be expected to pay the tax on it.

 

 

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4.2.1 Exempt producers/users

If you have produced or used less than 2,500 litres of:

 

any biofuel, or

any other fuel substitute or additive

within the last 12 months, and/or expect to produce or use less than 2,500 litres in the next 12 months, you are an exempt producer and do not need to register with HMRC and account for duty. However, there are simple record-keeping requirements, which are described in paragraph 4.9.1.

 

Production includes the manufacture or processing of road fuel, and the setting aside of any product that has not been charged with duty, with the intention of using it as road fuel.

 

.......... The abopve paragraph from HMRC site is the relevant one.. note very 1st sentance - "used".

 

Yes, you have tp keep accounts of what you have produced so you can authenticate you have produced less than 2500.

 

see

4.9.1 Exempt producers’ records

If you are an exempt producer (as defined in paragraph 4.2.1) you only need to record and keep the following information:

 

the date of each supply and/or own use

the amount in standard litres of each supply or own use

You should check the amounts produced at the end of each month. If you have produced 2,500 litres or more in the last 12 months, or expect to produce 2,500 litres or more in the next 12 months, you must contact HMRC within 30 days to register your premises as described in paragraph 2.5.

 

 

 

The second link above post (3rd party tax info site) is out of date - history now.

 

Jon.

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Grand.

I guess I could mix some in a glass and see how it mixes in various percentages, but in anycase try low percent to start with to try to see there is no problem.

 

I really should have done this with my old Ssangyong Musso, but I just never had the bottle. Now I am only thinking about it due to the rediculous cost.

 

Ok, thanks everyone.

 

Clyde

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Clyde,

Don't put straight veggie oil in your JTD even in smal pecentages - It m,ay appear to run OK but will gum up the injectors and high pressure pump.

You must only use properly processed veg oil in modern engines if you want to guarantee being troublesome free long term.

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Ok, Cheers Brambles.

 

I didn't for a minute think it was worth speaking to Fiat about it. I can pretty much guess what they would say.

I'll have to check out the most local bio-fuel suppliers.

 

If nothing else, the more people who buy into this concept, the more producers there will be.

Of course, HM C&E will cotton on soon enough and take away any advantage it presents - discounting the environmental issues of course !

 

Thanks again.

 

Clyde

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Brambles - 2008-05-28 1:34 PM

 

Clyde,

Don't put straight veggie oil in your JTD even in smal pecentages - It m,ay appear to run OK but will gum up the injectors and high pressure pump.

You must only use properly processed veg oil in modern engines if you want to guarantee being troublesome free long term.

 

Hmmm now I am wondering, according to the site posted above I got the impression you just use ordinary Veg Oil available from supermarkets or wholesalers without the need for modification, I thought that is what the kit you are buying into was for. Also on their site they list both the 2.8JTD Fiat common rail (amongst other Fiats) and the Peugeot Boxer.

Am I missing something here as I can see nothing about having to modify the Veg oil to be used in this system.

 

Bas

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I have had a look at the site with the conversion kit again - did not realise it was a proper system with prpper heaters to make sure veg oil was heated fully prior to going through the Pump etc. They certainly seem to be doing it properly not like some systems. The veg oilis heated and only intorduced once your engine is hot. This eleviates many of the problems assosciated with straight veg oil, but I would like to do more research as have always been under impression it was not good in anything buy low pressure systems...so I will check out and maybe I will be proved wrong. I do know you need a proer conversion and not al claimed sytems are.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html this link explains a lot more and is worth reading much more on the website if you are serious about running on SVO or BIO.

 

Dave - As far as the 'crud' goes there are various options. Burn it in a log stove, by making up paper or sawdust logs socked in the crud. You have to burn only had high temperatire to avoid toxic gases being produced.

Refine and process it to make soap or degreaser. Or what I do is to put it on a compost heap after distilling off the methanol for reuse in making Biodiesel. The glycerine left will biodegrade on a compost heap. What you must not do is wash it down the sink or drains.

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sorry if this is silly, but if you try this out and then decide you can't continue to make it, is it easy to transfer back to ordinary garage diesel or is the engine 'damaged' so you can't go back again?
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ROON - 2008-05-29 11:55 AM

 

sorry if this is silly, but if you try this out and then decide you can't continue to make it, is it easy to transfer back to ordinary garage diesel or is the engine 'damaged' so you can't go back again?

 

You can chop and change as much as you like.

 

Many (most?) petrol staions now sell "bio-diesel", basically the normal mineral diesel oil but with a proportion of bio-diesel added to it.

 

 

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Its not difficult to make at all. Bit messy but very straight forward and simple once you have learned how to do it. You can also make it with very little equipment..just some large containers, few lenghts of PVC tubing and a small hand pump - I use a 'home made wine' decanting pump/syphon.

 

Brambles from the process that you describe, you are NOT making Biodiesel, but filtered cooking oil. To make Biodiesel you need a reactor, caustic soda and methanol. I was making Biodiesel on a commercial basis two years ago and we gave up as the price of raw cooking/waste oil doubled in price in 12 months. If you made it today for general sale you would have to sell in excess of £2.00 a litre. It takes a good 3 days to refine the finished product. the method to make it is. 1. heat oil to over 55 degrees C. 2. pour in the correct amount of caustic soda ( you will have to titrate the oil to obtain the correct amount) and methanol (methanol is a very dangourous chemical, it can make you go blins if you get it on the skin as it goes through the pours or if you inhale it. I am talking about quite a lot ).3. Agitate the oil/chemical mix for an hour. 4. Turn off the pumps and let the mix settle for an hour. 5. After an hour you can draw off the gylcerin ( you will know when you have all the thick gylcerin as the raw bio is a lot thinner)6. Now you wash the raw bio. There are a number of ways that you can do this, but the oldest and some say the best method is to wash with a water mist, if you use this method, you give it three washes, before you decant and then use.

 

the biggest problems with making your own bio is the cost of the equipment, obtaining the chemicals and maybe the biggest problem is obtaining the waste oil. If you collect old oil from kebab shops etc you will have to filter it, and from a 20 litre can, you might get 5-10 litres from it, you then have to get rid of all that waste. I got a deal with a company that produced biogas from waste, and we had to pay them for that too.

 

As much as you tell people NOT to use biodiesl 100%, they will, because of the costs, but if you are running a modern common rail engine, only run 10-15% mix. Biodiesel is more viscous than mineral diesel and it could damage your pump.

 

I am afraid that Biodiesel is a dirty word in our household as we pumped in £20.000 into the business and only got a fraction of thiese costs when we gave up due to NO government body giving any help either techincal or financial.

 

Good luck to anyone out there that want to produce their own biodiesel.

 

Steve

 

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Just a word of caution.

I contacted Fiat late 2007 to clarify the warranty position.

They stated anything in excess of 5% bio in diesel would invalidate their warranty. I understand the majority (but not all) manufacturers' have similar limits.

 

I understand most manufacturers' now have a warranty limit of 15% Bio mix for Petrol engines, but best to check your own manufacturer for specifics.

 

 

See http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=9633&posts=8

 

I also checked with a chemist at work (Oil Refinery) and his results were very concerning regarding the state of a commercial Biofuel substitute.

It turned to a very thick mess in a relitively short time, 7 to 10 days depending on ambiaent weather conditions.

So don't leave the stuff in your tank when parked up for periods.

Note:- this was a 100% Bio product, it did not react the same way when mixed with Diesel at 5%

(i posted this on a similar thread about 6 months ago, but could not find it to quote all the specifics)

 

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Steve , have you read the rest of my posts - you will realise I make it properly. That was equipment I listed not the chemicals and process.

 

You can make in in old lemonade bottle in small batches if need be.

 

I sympathise with you over the costs of setting up a plant to do large scale, and many a producer has stopped, their equipment or ome of it being bought by others who then don't have the same capital to recliam, but processing equipmebt need not be expensive as you can use

 

I looked into setting up a business to produce on a larger scale but just could not get the busimess plan to work and produce a profit mainly because of the cost of actual getting the waste oil (transport delivery costs) and all the health and safety issues and rent for premises.

 

A farmer who has a spare bit of space in a steading or shed, and can improvise on expensive equipment can make it viable but a farmer friend who makes himself seriously doubts he really is saving money as ther are hidden costs he has not taken into account.

 

Jon

 

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