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Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
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userMikeTyke
Posted: 9 January 2021 10:20 PM
Subject: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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Location: Leeds Mobilvetta Kea P68 2019 150bhp


I just spotted this which is new requirement to me.

https://camping-car.com/reglementation/26230-les-camping-cars-poids-lourds-soumis-a-une-nouvelle-signalisation-des-angles-morts

I am not sure if this applies to all vans over 3.5t ?

userTeamRienza
Posted: 9 January 2021 11:52 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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Yes, if you follow your link and then further, the FFCC link, (the initials highlighted in red) you will arrive here,

https://ffcc.fr/actualite/nos-camping-cars-de-de-35-t-doivent-desormais-etre-equipes-dune-signalisation-materialisant-leurs-angles-morts/

I have used google translate to good effect on the relevant section.

All vehicles over 3.5 tonnes are concerned, our camper vans also, as well as their trailers if necessary.

The FFCC contacted Marie GAUTIER-MELLERAY, Interministerial Delegate for Road Safety, to tell her that our vehicles were often modest in size, but she told us that the decree did not provide for any exemption for them. We will therefore have to get used to this new signage!

On the road, bicycles, motorcycles, scooters, motorized personal transporters and pedestrians are smaller and less visible than a car to drivers of heavy vehicles. They are thus easily found out of their field of vision, in their blind spots.

These areas, the extent of which vulnerable users are often unaware, are the source of serious and sometimes fatal accidents. To improve this situation, heavy vehicles must now affix signs showing their blind spots. They are thus better indicated to vulnerable users who circulate nearby.

Further links detail the positioning of the stickers

https://www.camping-car.com/nos-actus/26100-la-signalisation-des-angles-morts-sera-t-elle-vraiment-obligatoire

Translation of relevant detail,

Article 2 of the decree indicates that the signage must be affixed on the rear face of the vehicle, to the right of the longitudinal median plane and at a height between 0.90 and 1.50 meters from the ground ... and in the first meter in front of the vehicle, excluding glass surfaces, on the left and right, and at a height of between 0.90 and 1.50 meters from the ground.

There are plenty of stickers available. Failure to display is a €135 fine. The only unknown factor seems to be wether Motorhomes over 3.5 tonnes from outside France are required to display them.

Davy
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 10 January 2021 9:35 AM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


A GOOGLE-translated version of the camping-car.com article is here

https://tinyurl.com/y6gtg8pw

The original in-French article’s final sentence advises

Cette réglementation s'applique aussi à tous les camping-caristes étrangers conduisant un poids lourd lorsqu'il circuleront sur le territoire français.

which translates to

"This regulation also applies to all foreign motorcaravanners driving a ‘heavy' motorhome (That’s a motorhome wit a Gross Vehicle Weight excedding 3500kg) when traveling on French territory.”

An earlier related camping-car.com article (GOOGLE translated) is here

https://tinyurl.com/y2szbt75
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 10 January 2021 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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Although motorhome-weight-related, this is not directly connected to the French blind-spot signagre issue. But I notice that lobbying to permit holders of a “B” (car) driving licence entitlement to legally drive a motorhome with a Gross Vehicle Weight up to 4250kg has started again.

https://tinyurl.com/yxsgyojc

France has a unique ‘grandfather rights’ addition (Code 79) to the “B” entitlement

https://tinyurl.com/yxrnh7ec

This is a bit like the grandfather rights “C1/C1E” entitlement that applies in the UK, except Code 79 relates specifically to motorhomes and there’s no GVW upper limit. When Code 79 became law in France in 2009, some EU countries (perhaps unsurprisingly) initially refused to recognise its legality for vehicles being driven within their national territory - but eventually those countries were compelled to do so.

According to this April 2018 link

https://www.ashtonslegal.co.uk/insights/legal-news/driving-a-larger-vehicle-on-your-cat-b-car-driving-licence/

France and Germany had already negotiated a relaxation of the general driving-licence regulations to permit electric vehicles up to 4250kg GVW to be legally driven on a “B” entitlement, and - for 'alternatively fuelled vehicles’ -a similar relaxation became law in the UK in late-July 2018.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/784/pdfs/uksi_20180784_en.pdf
userConrad
Posted: 10 January 2021 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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Sounds a good idea to me. Can anyone honestly say they have as good side and rear vision as in a car?
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 10 January 2021 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


My 2015 Rapido motorhome has the standard Fiat Ducato large ‘twin glass’ external mirrors, with each glass individually adjustable electrically, and those mirrors are far more effective than my Skoda car’s dinky little units.

On the other hand my Skoda car has a large rear window, whereas the Rapido has no ’through’ rear vision - which is why I have a continuously operating rear-view camera on the motorhome.

In principle this sounds like a reasonable idea, but it would mean that - if I had opted for the no-cost-option of a 3650kg Gross Vehicle Weight (instead of the standard 3500kg GVW) - although the sole technical difference would have been 3650kg on the Rapido data-plate rather than 3500kg, the French regulation would demand ‘blind spot signage’ for the 3650kg version but not for the 3500kg.
usermtravel
Posted: 10 January 2021 4:12 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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Derek Uzzell - 2021-01-10 3:44 PM

... the French regulation would demand ‘blind spot signage’ for the 3650kg version but not for the 3500kg ....

I have been following this for a few weeks also on French sites.
If I understand correctly, the decision was made due to the high number of cyclists overwhelmed by heavy vehicles.
And it's a warning to cyclists, to warn them that the vehicle may have blind spots.
In any case, I consider distinctions like yours quite childish, I believe that in a law it is impossible to foresee all variables.

Two more info about France:
1. I don't know if it's a national law or a local rule.
I have seen many signs that you must be more than 1.5 meters from a cyclist when you overtake him.
2. France is about to introduce sensors on the road for vehicle weighing.
With camera that takes a snaphot at the license plate in case of overweight.
I seem to have understood that tests are at an advanced stage in some areas of Brittany.

Max

p.s. Jocking. Think about how a foreigner must feel when on your motorways on a display he reads something like:
Variable speed limits.
Got it. Now, which is the current one ?
usercolin
Posted: 10 January 2021 4:52 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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As a keen cyclist (one of the few things I can still do at moment) I think it's totally ridiculous. As Derek points out the weight of a vehicle is not the defining factor as to the visibility from inside. If a cyclist is going to be riding alongside any vehicle without considering they might not be seen, then those same cyclists will hardly be likely to read any notices on said vehicles. If the French (or any other government) want to reduce accidents, then they should be making a cycling proficiency course a mandentary requirement.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 10 January 2021 4:53 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


mtravel - 2021-01-10 4:12 PM.........................p.s. Jocking. Think about how a foreigner must feel when on your motorways on a display he reads something like: Variable speed limits.
........Now, which is the current one ?

Invariably, the one you are exceeding!
userNinian
Posted: 10 January 2021 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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Hi, If this does become mandatory where would be get the signs and would they have to be French.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 10 January 2021 5:04 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


MikeTyke - 2021-01-09 10:20 PM
I just spotted this which is new requirement to me.
https://camping-car.com/reglementation/26230-les-camping-cars-poids-lourds-soumis-a-une-nouvelle-signalisation-des-angles-morts
I am not sure if this applies to all vans over 3.5t ?

But, this is a French regulation which, so as far as I am aware (but definitely worth checking), should not be assumed to apply to UK registered vehicles visiting France. Under the Vienna Convention on International Traffic, if a vehicle is legal for use in its state of registration, and that state is one which has ratified the Treaty (both the UK and France have, and the EU has generally "adopted" its provisions, but with exceptions for some states) the vehicle must legally be accepted as is onto the roads of all other ratifying nations.
usersilverback
Posted: 10 January 2021 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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well I for one will not be putting these on!
if a cyclist does not know vehicles like lorries etc have blind spots....then they shouldn't be on the road! and having a sticker on the side and back is not gonna help them...in fact if they are that close to read it they should not be there !
Jonathan
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 10 January 2021 5:43 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


mtravel - 2021-01-10 4:12 PM

...In any case, I consider distinctions like yours quite childish, I believe that in a law it is impossible to foresee all variables...

Max

I’ve no problem with the French regulation’s logic, and It’s plain from French websites what the objective behind the legislation is (highlighted here)

https://www.leparisien.fr/societe/cyclistes-camions-bientot-un-autocollant-pour-signaler-le-danger-des-angles-morts-08-04-2019-8049210.php

and (as has been said in the Camping-Car article) stickers are being marketed quite cheaply in France.

https://www.joostshop.com/en/sticker-angles-morts.html

Living in Italy, I’m sure you are aware that (as a result of French driving-licence-entitlement restrictions) the vast majority of French-registered motorhomes have a GrossVehicle Weight (GVW) not exceeding 3500kg and the 'blind spot’ regulation won’t affect owners of those vehicles.

On the other hand, a lot of UK motorcaravanners own motorhomes with a GVW exceeding 3500kg and apparently those vehicles will (or should) now have blind spot stickers on them when travelling in France.

As my 3500kg versus 3650kg comparison could be applied to my own Rapido motorhome, I chose it as an example. Probably few UK motorcaravanners have an over-3500kg motorhome so little above that threshold, but the comparison is still valid as far as the French regulation is concerned.

French-registered motorhomes with a GVW exceeding 3500kg should already carry a trio of speed-limit discs on their rear

https://www.camping-car-plus.com/securite-caravane/securite-routiere/disques-limitation-de-vitesse/kit-3-disques-limitation-vitesse-3742.html

As far as I’m aware this rule also applies to to foreign-registered ‘heavy’ motorhomes being driven in France, though I’ve yet to see them on a UK-registered motorhome that obviously had an over-3500kg GVW.

Ninian - 2021-01-10 4:59 PM

Hi, If this does become mandatory where would be get the signs and would they have to be French.

As this regulation is a French one, presumably the ‘sticker’ should meet the French specification - and that would mean it must be in French. ANGLES MORTS stickers are already advertised on UK ebay, usually coming from China.

For UK motorcaravanners keen to (sort of) adhere to the new French regulation but advertise their post-BREXIT independence, using these stickers instead might be worth considering

https://tinyurl.com/y3o6pzwo
usergoldi
Posted: 15 January 2021 4:34 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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Good afternoon,

Could this new regulation go the same way as the brethalyser and the crit air ticket ? and has Macron got a sticker factory ?
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 15 January 2021 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


The French breathalyser law was finally revoked in early-2020

https://www.thelocal.fr/20200108/france-to-finally-scrap-law-obliging-drivers-to-keep-breathalysers-in-cars

but the Crit’Air system remains very much in force, with increasing restrictions on older vehicles. This GOOGLE-translated article refers to Paris

https://tinyurl.com/y4lp77oc

Although many of the on-line adverts for “ANGLES MORTS” stickers seem to have had a Chinese origin, French printing companies are also churning them out. This is just one example

https://www.gmjphoenix.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/bon-de-commande-ANGLES-MORTS-2.pdf

There appear to be two ‘official’ stickers - one for trucks and another for buses/coaches. Presumably, if over-3500kg GVW motorhomes must carry these stickers, it’s the bus/coach version that should be used. Or perhaps there’s a business opportunity for someone to produce stickers with a large camping-car on them.



(camping-car sticker.png)



Attachments
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Attachments camping-car sticker.png (138KB - 105 downloads)
userwitzend
Posted: 19 January 2021 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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If they don't do one for motorhomes will they need one. Think I'll wait and see if any French vans have one
uservindiboy
Posted: 19 January 2021 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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When i had my 4.5 tonne Hymer there were similar discussions about the number stickers needed in France depicting Speed limits for heavier vans, I bought a set for the Hymer and stuck them on it ,only cost pennies, I saw many other vans without the required stickers on them in my travels, So I guess it will be the same with the blind spot stickers, but for what they cost I would buy and use them why not ? if they help to save lives and possibly time spent in the French Legal System.
folk gripe about the silliest things , cant do this that or the other because of XXX , just comply and forget about it methinks ?
userFifo
Posted: 19 January 2021 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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Checking on our van. ( (3500 kg up-plated to 3800 kg) if we put the stickers at the back of the van in any of the suggested places, they will be completely obscured by the covered bikes on the chassis mounted bike rack.

I wonder if those i/ c the regulation thought that one out ?
uservindiboy
Posted: 19 January 2021 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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Like this ? OOPs picture Too big AGAIN ?////

Edited by vindiboy 2021-01-19 12:23 PM
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 19 January 2021 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


Fifo - 2021-01-19 12:21 PM

Checking on our van. ( (3500 kg up-plated to 3800 kg) if we put the stickers at the back of the van in any of the suggested places, they will be completely obscured by the covered bikes on the chassis mounted bike rack.

I wonder if those i/ c the regulation thought that one out ?

These are the (GOOGLE translated) rules for where the ANGLES MORTS stickers should be postioned.

“INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS

ARTICLE 2
Motor vehicles and towed vehicles must be marked on the rear of the vehicle, to the right of the longitudinal median plane and at a height of between 0.90 and 1.50 meters from the ground and,
- For motor vehicles: signage in the first front meter of the vehicle, excluding glazed surfaces, on the left and right, and at a height between 0.90 and 1.50 meters from the ground.
- For semi-trailers: signage, left and right, in the first meter behind the vehicle's kingpin and at a height between 0.90 and 1.50 meters from the ground.
- For trailers: signage in the first meter of the front body part of the vehicle, to the left and to the right, and at a height between 0.90 and 1.50 meters from the ground
Signs must be placed in such a way that they are visible in all circumstances and so that they cannot obstruct the visibility of the vehicle's regulatory plates and inscriptions, the visibility of the various lights and signaling devices as well as the field of vision. of the driver.

ARTICLE 3
Articulated buses and coaches, as defined in 1.8 of R. 311-1 of the Highway Code, must also have additional signs showing the blind spots on each of the sections making up the articulated vehicle.
These signs will be affixed in the first meter before each section, excluding
glazed surfaces, left and right, and at a height of between 0.90 and 1.50 meters from the ground.

ARTICLE 4
By way of derogation from Article 2, the following provisions apply:
vehicles with more than two doors must be fitted with signs only on the front-most door on each side of the vehicle.
motor vehicles and towed vehicles, for which it is technically impossible to comply with the height requirement of the signage from the ground, are fitted with signs placed at a height as close as possible to that prescribed in article 2 of this decree and within the limit of 2.10 meters.
vehicles equipped with direct vision systems at the bottom of the doors or with glass doors
affix the signs at a distance from the front, overall of the vehicle, as close as possible to that prescribed in Article 2 of this Order and within the limit of 3 meters from the front of the vehicle.
the rear signaling positioning criteria are not applicable to motor vehicles and towed vehicles for which there is a technical impossibility. This is particularly the case with container doors, car carriers, tractors for semi-trailers, tank vehicles, flatbed vehicles, arms for removable skips, dollys. These vehicles must be marked on the rear face in a position compatible with their technical characteristics.
the positioning criteria for side signs are not applicable to towed vehicles for which there is a technical impossibility.
motor vehicles and towed vehicles, for which a structural impossibility is proven, are exempted from affixing side and / or rear signs.


If your covered bikes would obscure the rear sticker, I’m afraid it looks like you'd need to remove the bikes while travelling in France.

Of course the French authorities did not take over-3500kg motorhomes into account when framing these regulations. The percentage of French-registered ‘poids lourds’ camping-cars with a GVW exceeding 3500kg is small and the regulations are clearly aimed at lorries and buses/coaches. If French owners of ‘heavy’ motorhomes yell loud enough, perhaps there will be an exemption. (Apparently there’s a three months period of grace before fines will be levied for non-compliance.)
userFifo
Posted: 19 January 2021 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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Derek Uzzell - 2021-01-19 2:38 PM

If your covered bikes will obscure the rear sticker, I’m afraid you’ll need to remove the bikes while travelling in France.

(Of course the French authorities did not take over-3500kg motorhomes into account when framing these regulations. The percentage of French-registered ‘poids lourds’ camping-cars with a GVW exceeding 3500kg is small and the regulations are clearly aimed at lorries and buses/coaches. Apparently there’s a three months period of grace before fines will be levied for non-compliance.)

Something tells me that will go down like a lead brick among the motorhoming community of UK and the rest of Europe ! I don’t think our bike carrying choice is the only one that will obscure the new signs.
userKeithl
Posted: 19 January 2021 2:49 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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If the sign will be obscured by the bikes then you will need to reposition the sign to make it visible, say on a metal plate held by a bracket fixed off the bike rack. That is how cement mixers here display the sign when they have no 'bodywork' to fix the sticker to.

Keith.
userFifo
Posted: 19 January 2021 2:57 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 
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Keithl - 2021-01-19 2:49 PM

If the sign will be obscured by the bikes then you will need to reposition the sign to make it visible, say on a metal plate held by a bracket fixed off the bike rack. That is how cement mixers here display the sign when they have no 'bodywork' to fix the sticker to.

Keith.

That should be do-able though, with the metal striped backboard already there we might fetch up looking a little like the back of a tinker’s cart. The main danger might be that we stun any passing cyclist with our assorted dangling metal signs.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 19 January 2021 5:24 PM
Subject: RE: Blind spot signage for heavy duty vans
 


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There are derogations (ARTICLE 4) when the rules stated in ARTICLE 2 cannot be met.

The signs are 25cm (height) x 17cm (width) - 9.8” x 6.7” - and they can be positioned on the rear of the vehicle up to 2.10 from the ground. (Presumably that limit applies to the top of the sticker.)

I also notice that on 14 December 2020 the IRU (International Road Transport Union) called on the European Commission in Brussels to oppose this French regulation

https://www.fntr.fr/sites/default/files/2020-12/Lettre-IRU-autocollants-FR-171220.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3GPNVuWGnlkbukl_bp09up4_qGuxMk835ZQyLWQPPZcTnO0H5DfX15

so things MIGHT change...
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