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CBE CB516 to CBE DS300 connection cable


BrianK

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Hello all and season’s greetings

 

Hoping for some help with the electrics in my Transporter T6. I’m currently near the start of replacing one inadequate leisure battery with two decent ones and fitting a DC/DC charger.

 

I also have mains powered charger CBE CB516 which is connected to distribution board CBE DS300 with only the mains consumer unit in between using (I believe) cable 006724E.

 

I would like to move the charger to under the driver’s seat with one of the leisure battery’s but the current cable, being only half a metre long, will never do it. I have searched high and low online for a longer one but can’t find a thing, only these two pages below which are for the same length.

 

https://www.thecbecentre.co.uk/cbe-connection-cable-battery.html

 

https://www.miriad-products.com/CBE-connection-cable-battery-to-12v-volt-box

 

I’d be happy enough to try and replace the wires in the current connectors and have read on the fitting instructions that the thicker wires should be min 4mm2, only I can’t find any details of what the thinner white (signal) cable should be.

 

Many thanks for any help you can provide.

 

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Don't bother looking for it online, just make your own as it"s easy enough and will be as long as you need it.

 

Not sure how long the cable would need to be but I'd just go for the biggest cross section cable you can fit into appropriate connectors. One difference with 516 vs 520 is that 520 has eyelet connector (M8 I think) but the 516 has this plug in type that limits the cross section you can squeeze in.

 

Or you could cut the existing cable and insert an extension avoiding the trouble of buying just a few connectors and crimping them. Not ideal but an option.

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Hi Brian,

 

I have moved both the CBE 516 and the Mains Distribution units in my PVC. It is important to keep the charger output cable route as short as possible, and I advise the use of 6 sq mm cable. This is so as to keep the cable resistance and hence voltage drop along the cable as low as possible. To reduce the length of the cable route, I installed a length of mini trunking across the rear top corner of a cupboard.

 

AFAIK the original output connection to the charger uses special connector inserts to accommodate the cable. I left the charger end alone, and cut off the existing 6mm ring termonals. The original cable was then extended using yellow (6mm) preinsulated butt crimps, and new 6mm ring terminals. Increase in route length was probably less than a metre.

 

It will also be necessary to extend the white, "S" signal lead which also runs between the charger and the DS300. If you do not do this, you will lose the mains charging facility for the starter battery, and the "mains ON" icon. This is only a low current connection, rated at 50mA, and 0.5 sq mm will be adequate.

 

For the mains supply, I made up a new length of cable (1.5 sq mm) using new Mate'n Lock pins, but if you do not have a pin extractor tool, you will also need new 3 way connector bodies.

 

I followed the above method because my PVC has a CBE DS520, which includes a habitation battery current monitoring facility.

 

For your CBE DS300, may I now suggest a simpler solution. Connect the CB 516 to your habitation battery (bank), and not to the DS300. If a shunt is fitted, you would need to connect to the end remote from the battery. With this method you will still need to lengthen the "S" connection to the DS300.

 

You mention fitting a DC to DC charger, otherwise known as a B2B. I presume that this is to improve alternator charging of the habitation battery. Before embarking on this, may I suggest that you browse this thread.

 

 

 

 

Alan

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Thanks for the replies everyone.

 

It probably doesn't matter but mine is a T5 not T6 as I said above, just a typo.

 

Alan

Thank you, of course connecting direct to the habitation batteries will do the same job, I should perhaps spend less time trying to replace things as they were and more time thinking laterally. Presumably this means the original 0.5m cables can still be used? I already have 16mm2 cables to upgrade from the habitation batteries to DS300 as the previous ones were worryingly thin!

 

I don’t currently have a shunt but have one to install on a monitor (see link below) along with the B2B charger and cable upgrades.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Voltmeter-Ammeter-Capacity-Discharge/dp/B0788KKMBZ

 

 

If I could perhaps ask for further help having stripped some more of the previous owners cables this afternoon.

 

The van has a Waeco CRX 50 Fridge, and having thought the cables (like a lot of others in the conversion) looked a bit on the thin side, I have stripped them out and plan to replace with recommended 6mm2 cable.

 

I just wanted to check the fridge is connected correctly with my set-up. Currently Pos/Neg are connected directly to +B2 and -B2 of the DS300 and other than an inline switch (which I intend to remove) there are no connections to anything else at all. My assumption from reading the DS300 instructions are that this supply isn’t fused and should be.

 

Thanks again everybody.

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Brian,

 

You will still need to extend the white 0.5mm "S" signal lead.

 

Your fridge should have a suitably rated fuse, as close to the battery as possible. If you remove the online switch, how are you going to switch the fridge OFF?

 

As reguards the use of 6mm cable for your compressor fridge, which will draw less than 4A, I would have thought that unless you have a very long run, 4mm cable would be adequate.

 

If you are refering to the main habitation battery (B2) connection, this should be fused at no more than 50A.

 

With my double battery installation, I have chosen to fuse each battery separately at 20A. I have used maxi blade fuses, which make for easy isolation of individual batteries named B2L and B2R (left & right).

 

If after reading DavieR's thread, you decide to continue with the B2B installation, you will have to consider how to break the effective parallel path, presented by the integral CBE DS300 split charge relay. Please feel free to PM me if you require further advice on this.

 

Alan

 

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Alan,

 

The CRX 50 fridge has an on/off switch inside and I have read that adding a switch loses valuable voltage, plus felt if I could leave the fuse accessible I can pull if if need be. Bear in mind also that the draw on the CRX is fairly low compared to a lot of the larger Motorhome compressor fridges at only 1.1 to 1.7 amps. Presume I will fuse it at 15A as per the manufacturers manual. Are you saying connect this direct to the batteries rather than +B2 and -B2 of the DS300?

 

I have read the thread which I had read some time back and must say it is most interesting. As novel and even tenacious as I find WeldedTed and DavieR’s experiment I have no particular wish to emulate theirs only for the following reasons.

 

I doubt my power needs are anywhere near theirs

Even with one rubbish (so called) leisure battery I managed 3 nights in the autumn anyway, however I knew when I bought the van that the electrics needed doing, but any improvement in how long they last will be gratefully received.

It has taken me long time to get my head around the B2B system as it is.

I have bought all of the parts needed needed now

Everything I have read about the efficiency of the Redarc BCDC1240D has been really good

 

It may also be worth mentioning that there is no cable from the B1 stud on the DS300 back to the starter battery currently and I’m not sure I was going to add one considering I have replaced the starter battery with a beast of a Bosch S5A13.

 

Alanb - 2019-12-29 10:04 AM

If after reading DavieR's thread, you decide to continue with the B2B installation, you will have to consider how to break the effective parallel path, presented by the integral CBE DS300 split charge relay.

Does this mean that the split charge relay isn’t an issue in my case? Or are there choices?

And could it also mean there is no benefit to extending the “S” signal wire either?

 

Alanb - 2019-12-29 10:04 AM

If you are refering to the main habitation battery (B2) connection, this should be fused at no more than 50A.

Alan

If you see page 2 of the installation instructions below you will see that 60A are recommended which I have already purchased in the midi fuse variety. I do have a 50 Amp of the bladed type, are you suggesting one of these is needed between habitation batteries and DS300 terminal +B2

 

Link to Redarc

 

Thanks for any help provided

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Brian,

 

1. Given that you have no connection to the B1 stud of the DS300, the split charge relay will not be an issue.

There will still be a small benefit in extending the "S" signal, as it drives the mains ON icon on the display.

 

2. The 50A fuse to which I was refering was for the B2 connection to the DS300. Effectively the load fuse on the Redarc Figure 2.7.1. You will need a fuse between the habitation battery, and the DS300 stud.

 

My present connections use a midi 50A fuse at B1, and then separate maxi blade 20A and 30A fuses for 3 way fridge and B2B input. As I have previously stated, each of the two habitation batteries has its individual 20A maxi blade fuse. The maxi blade fuseholders are fiddly to wire, but the fuse link makes a very convenient disconnection point. In emergency, checking the fuse could be carried by visual inspection. Midi fuses are almost the opposite. Easy to wire, but more difficult to remove and check.

 

If you should decide to run a cable for the DS300 B1 stud, this could be of quite small csa, suitably fused.

Connect to the B1 stud via a NC relay contact. Operate the relay from IGN +ve , which can be obtained from the existing? connection to the DS300. This would provide B1 charging, and voltage indication.

 

Alan

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Alan,

 

Thanks so much for this.

 

Alanb - 2019-12-29 8:21 PM

There will still be a small benefit in extending the "S" signal, as it drives the mains ON icon on the display.

Alan

I’ve actually never noticed this icon, probably just because I’m usually not in the van when it is plugged into EHU at home. My control panel is a CBE PC210 which from what I read DOES have this function, so I will check.

 

I spent some time doing a drawing earlier which I have attached. hopefully you won’t mind taking a look and commenting in any way you see fit, for instance fuse positions, and have I added enough Anderson connectors to isolate everything should I need to.

 

Alanb - 2019-12-29 8:21 PM

If you should decide to run a cable for the DS300 B1 stud, this could be of quite small csa, suitably fused.

Connect to the B1 stud via a NC relay contact. Operate the relay from IGN +ve , which can be obtained from the existing? connection to the DS300. This would provide B1 charging, and voltage indication.

You have lost me here, due to my lack of understanding more than your explanation I’m absolutely sure!

 

Thanks again

Brian

Batt_Plan_.thumb.jpg.372efc0682686f4a6a765460a2ba3367.jpg

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Brian,

 

I'm struggling to understand how you have wired in your shunt.

 

You have both Hab batteries grounded to chassis (via the starter battery) so unless ALL your load negatives are wired to the negative bus bar they will bypass the shunt.

 

Is this how you intend to wire any loads?

 

Keith.

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Alan,

 

Yes this was exactly my intention, but only through being told what to do on everything I've read :-S (including at the two links below). I'm not sure if this is standard practice for all monitors with an external shunt but can't find anything about this product that disagrees. I assumed that once DS300 is connected to the +VE busbar (only added to keep things tidy) this will ensure ALL load negatives will route via the shunt?!

 

I chose this monitor mostly for it's extensive functionality, as well as price, :-D and not ease of use as apparently they can be a bit of a pig to calibrate.

 

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/cheap-chinese-battery-monitors.418949

 

https://nzmotorhome.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=6547

 

Many thanks once again for your continued help.

Brian

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Alan,

 

I'm starting to question whether the ground connection should be on the side of the habitation batteries or the other side of the shunt with everything else!

 

I have found this explanation:

http://www.waterexplorer.co.uk/hosted/detailed-guide-to-installing-ammeter-and-shunt.pdf

 

And also intended to attach the manual before but forgot:

http://www.manins.net.au/motorhome/mfpm_instructions.pdf.sav

 

Brian

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The link I below as well as others I have found do seem to confirm I got it wrong and the ONLY thing at the start of the shunt should be the habitation batteries. My assumption is that ground must also be connected to the load end of the shunt.

https://marinehowto.com/installing-a-battery-monitor

 

EDIT: This link may also be of interest to others

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/motorhome-advice-how-to-fit-a-multi-function-battery-monitor

 

 

 

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Brian,

 

I have been busy helping my good wife shopping, and making good use of the fine weather, to carry out some outdoor tasks.

 

I have noted Keith's post,and you reply mistakenly addressed to me. I usually find myself in agreement with Keith's posts, or learn from them. In this instance I agree, as I was already of the same opinion.

 

My main comment on your diagram is that in order to correctly display battery current, which I assume is the reason for your monitor, a change to the wiring is required.

 

The earh connection from the starter battery area, should be connected to the -VE Busbar, instead of to the habitation battery negative,

 

My other comments are of a more general nature, and some relate to the fact that I am fussy over details, so please do not be offended.

 

I applaud the facts that you have produced a drawing as a record, and not indulged in battery spaghetti, by keeping connections to the actual batteries simple.

 

Your drawing could be slightly improved, by removing unecessary crossings of wires, rerouting the connection between the shunt and -VE Busbar, and by extending the dotted area around Habitation Battery 2 so as to make the "S" signal wire more visible.

 

For the mains charging of B1, I have added the circuit to a copy of your diagram, and would be happy to email it to you, if you are willing to supply your email address via PM.

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

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Keithl - 2019-12-30 9:09 AM

Brian,

 

I'm struggling to understand how you have wired in your shunt.

 

You have both Hab batteries grounded to chassis (via the starter battery) so unless ALL your load negatives are wired to the negative bus bar they will bypass the shunt.

 

Is this how you intend to wire any loads?

Keith.

Keith,

 

My apologies for mixing up Alan and yourself. What I get for replying when only on mobile (tiny for my old eyes) screens :$

 

Brian

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Alanb - 2019-12-30 8:35 PM

Brian,

 

I have been busy helping my good wife shopping, and making good use of the fine weather, to carry out some outdoor tasks.

 

I have noted Keith's post,and you reply mistakenly addressed to me. I usually find myself in agreement with Keith's posts, or learn from them. In this instance I agree, as I was already of the same opinion.

 

My main comment on your diagram is that in order to correctly display battery current, which I assume is the reason for your monitor, a change to the wiring is required.

 

The earh connection from the starter battery area, should be connected to the -VE Busbar, instead of to the habitation battery negative,

 

My other comments are of a more general nature, and some relate to the fact that I am fussy over details, so please do not be offended.

 

I applaud the facts that you have produced a drawing as a record, and not indulged in battery spaghetti, by keeping connections to the actual batteries simple.

 

Your drawing could be slightly improved, by removing unecessary crossings of wires, rerouting the connection between the shunt and -VE Busbar, and by extending the dotted area around Habitation Battery 2 so as to make the "S" signal wire more visible.

 

For the mains charging of B1, I have added the circuit to a copy of your diagram, and would be happy to email it to you, if you are willing to supply your email address via PM.

 

Alan

Alan,

 

Many thanks once again. I have re-done the sketch to an extent, I agree about the crossing of wires etc but to be honest what the sketch shows and where the wires will eventually be could be two completely different things due to space, so I haven't changed these. Perhaps I will post some photos of the eventual installation if I'm happy with the result!

 

The offer of a sketch of the B1 circuit would be gratefully received many thanks, I have PM'd you.

 

Brian

 

EDIT: I just realised that I didn't make it clear the dotted lines are the seat bases!

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Brian,

 

No probs with getting names mixed up earlier, I appreciate Alan had mostly been replying to you but felt I had to point out the potential error in the shunt wiring.

 

Now one other observation: To keep the charging and loading of your two Hab batteries equal you must ensure the total wire length from negative to positive bus bars via either battery is identical. This is usually accomplished by having identical length positive and negative cables linking the pair and then connecting the negative to ground at one battery and the positive to bus bar at the other battery.

 

If you don't understand then say and I'll try and find a pic to illustrate what I mean.

 

Keith.

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Keithl - 2019-12-30 9:51 PM

 

Brian,

 

No probs with getting names mixed up earlier, I appreciate Alan had mostly been replying to you but felt I had to point out the potential error in the shunt wiring.

 

Now one other observation: To keep the charging and loading of your two Hab batteries equal you must ensure the total wire length from negative to positive bus bars via either battery is identical. This is usually accomplished by having identical length positive and negative cables linking the pair and then connecting the negative to ground at one battery and the positive to bus bar at the other battery.

 

If you don't understand then say and I'll try and find a pic to illustrate what I mean.

 

Keith.

Keith,

 

Many thanks that would be much appreciated thank you.

 

I was actually about to consider asking the question about the cable length but was afraid I would be told I'm being too fussy :-S

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BrianK - 2019-12-31 12:33 AM

 

I’m sure I’m probably wrong but does this mean that what I have done in my sketch below achieves the same objective?

 

And does run of the negatives matter in the same way?

 

What needs to be equal is the lenght of cables connecting neg and pos terminals on 2 batteries. Consider them as one battery with 12 cells (2p x 6s) rather than usual 6 cells in series. The + & - connections between two strings of 6 cells need to be the same lenght to avoid cell inballance. The lenght of cables then going to busbar, chargers etc. from battery onwards doesn't need to be equal, just as short as possible.

 

In your diagram I'd consider avoiding the busbar for these b1-b2 connections and go direct, having a separate cable going to +busbar from B1+ and B2- to shunt.

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BrianK - 2019-12-30 11:33 PM

 

Keith,

 

Many thanks for the diagram.

 

I’m sure I’m probably wrong but does this mean that what I have done in my sketch below achieves the same objective?

 

And does run of the negatives matter in the same way?

 

Brian

 

Brian,

 

That is not the 'done' way for interconnecting batteries as you have more connections than necessary, and each connection adds resistance and hence power loss.

 

Your bus-bar method has five connection points (1 at each battery plus 3 at the bus-bar) whereas the method I showed in the lower diagram had only 3 (1 at LH battery and 2 at RH battery).

 

And Yes you must replicate the setup for the negative connections.

 

Imagine 'walking' from the positive bus-bar through the LH battery to the negative bus-bar and then doing the same walk through the RH battery. Both paths must be exactly the same length with the same number of connections.

 

Keith.

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I would agree with what Keith has said - just treat the two batteries as one and take the negative feed from one battery and the positive feed from the other battery.

 

You might want to think about using something like this to keep the cables tidy (and safe!) [url=] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Baoblaze-Audio-Fused-Distribution-OUTPUT-as-picture/dp/B07FSGVPW6 [/url].

I would probably use a spare midi fuse to connect the charger input (even though the charger has a built in fuse) just to protect the cable from the "bus bar" to the charger. You should be very careful to properly insulate the busbar, particulary in a PVC with a metal chassis, to avoid the risk of a fire.

 

I also see in your diagram that you are using a "ign Live" to control the Redarc B2B. Is this live only when the engine is running (not just with the ignition switched on)?

If not (and your hab. batteries are low), your starter battery will have another significant load and may struggle to start the engine. I think it is normal practise to use the D+ (or equivalent) that only goes live with the engine running. This is usually a fairly low current so you need to check the load on the B2B control signal.

 

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Hello All,

 

Thanks again everybody for continuing to help me get it. Just so I know I understand for sure I’ve drawn it again!

 

Is it correct that version A would be the standard way of doing it?

 

And if I understand correctly what Alan told me in an email he sent me in reference to the B1 thing his set-up is basically like version B.

 

Alan also pointed out that the fuses should be as close to the battery terminals as possible. This I did realise but forgot while doing my sketch, or my mild OCD stopped me from bunching things up too much.

 

Brian

389065644_Batteries_Parallel2_.thumb.png.530b49aec334e6b83311b2b22597d03c.png

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BrianK - 2019-12-31 3:02 PM

 

Is it correct that version A would be the standard way of doing it?

 

And if I understand correctly what Alan told me in an email he sent me in reference to the B1 thing his set-up is basically like version B.

 

Brian

 

Version A is correct as the cable length is identical through either battery.

 

Version B is incorrect as shown because the cable lengths for the LH battery are considerably longer than for the RH battery.

 

The only way to improve version B would be to use the same length positive and the same length negative cables for both batteries, even if that meant excess cable was used for one battery.

 

Keith.

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