spirou Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 We're getting a new van in a few weeks and I plan on adding 300W of solar panels on it. It will come with mostly CBE kit: PCE380 control panel, CB520-3 20A power supply/charger, a distribution board (unknown CBE model, probably DS470) and a Schaudt WA booster. Batteries will likely be dual LFD90 (can't get the yuasa l36 efb anywhere outside UK) since we will also need to run a compressor fridge and I hate being on EHU. The question I haven't managed to figure out yet is how CBE connects leisure and starter batteries/alternator when plugged in or driving and what the optimal way to wire in solar would be? Is there a way to wire into the distribution board (like some Schaudt EBL) and it handles solar split charging to starter battery as well? If that's the case I'm definitely going for a victron regulator, otherwise I might consider a votronic duo. Although, unlike Allan, I don't really see the (crucial) need to maintain the starter battery. We use the van quite often so no big deal if left out of the loop for a week or two. I saw a schematic diagram on aandn for one (old?) distribution board but I can't find anything on CBE website itself. A manual would be useful. Thinking about it now I suppose it could be wired into the same inputs as those coming from the power supply. If that gets split to the starter battery so would solar?! I've asked the conversion company for some documentation but they don't have any, just gave me a tour of production facility and I got to chat with the guy doing the wiring, but that particular van he was working on didn't have all the elements installed yet and he couldn't remember the DS model. Does anyone have the latest CBE gear and could share some insights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 As you say, if driven every couple of weeks does it matter? We have ebl99 but have got solar direct to LB, this did catch us out one winter when van wasn't used for some time and VB got very low, aside from that it's worked very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 I have the 16A version of the mains charger you are getting. As you probably know it puts a 2A charge into the vehicle battery and the rest into the LBs. If you connect solar onto the same terminals you won't get anything into the VB. This is because there is also a small control wire running ru ning from the charger into the main distribution panel where it must actuate a relay or something. It would be straightforward to emulate this from your solar charger but I've never bothered testing it because of my relatively meagre 80w panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 Interesting. Did not know about the signal wire yet. I'm thinking it could be replaced by a wire from the load output on the regulator limited to whatever current is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefitz Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 I suggest the Victron MPPT controller is the better option and with the smart version allows charging status (and charge history) and setup via a phone app. The unit should be mounted as close as practical to the batteries with a direct connection, ( via suitable fuse). This removes the possibility of volt drops in the connections and allows the temperature compensation to operate correctly. The PCE380 is backwards comparable with the CBE previous control panels and the distribution unit so I dont think there is anything added to the functions like power monitoring. I cannot find any data on the DS470 but suspect it operated in a similar way to the DS300. This uses a internal relay switched by an 'ignition on' from the vehicle circuits, (or D+ if available), to connect the vehicle and leisure batteries together. Some applications disable the internal ( not very good) relay and use an external higher current relay. When using the CBE mains charger, the control wire activates a solid state current limited circuit in the DS unit that diverts a small current to the starter battery. If providing a maintaining current to the vehicle battery is an issue then CBE and Voltronic have low cost units available that divert a small current from the leisure batteries when these are under charge conditions. (You may find more information on the French camping car forums on the DS470) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 I have been deterred from posting on this matter by Spirou's closing line in his opening post. "Does anyone have the latest CBE gear and could share some insights?" The installation on my vehicle dates from 2006. I can confirm kevina's description of the CBE "S" signal. It is my belief that this is obtained from behind the rectifying element of the CBE 516 mains charger via a signal diode. The "S" signal is rated at 50mA, and does as kevina suggests operate a relay. This relay is an approximate 12mm cube and located in the lower RHS corner of both CBE DS300 and DS520 boards. An adjacent thermistor limits the current (2A) passed to the starter battery (B1), and a backfeed is prevented by an again adjacent schottky? diode. The voltage drop across this diode results in the charging voltage at B1 being about 0.4V lower than that at the habitation battery (B2). I do not think that it would be sufficient to make a connection from the output of a solar regulator in parallel with the "S" signal. A possible work around would be to use one of these, to monitor B2 voltage. However I suspect that it may operate when not required. On the CBE DS300 and DS520 based systems battery charging from the alternator is carried out via an on board split charge relay which is operated by an ignition switch controlled supply that is monitored on board for charging voltage There are some published photos (French origin) of a DS300 where the split charge relay and B1 terminal have not been fitted, and the split charge function has incorrectly been ascribed to another relay. I have not managed to find a picture of the internals of a DS470, and it may well differ in function from the earlier DSxxx, perhaps with a separate split charge relay. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 mikefitz - 2019-09-28 10:00 AM] The unit should be mounted as close as practical to the batteries with a direct connection, ( via suitable fuse). This removes the possibility of volt drops in the connections and allows the temperature compensation to operate correctly. Everything, including the batteries, is mounted under the bench seat. I'm not sure the solar reg will also fit once the extra battery goes in and I'm almost certain some ventilation holes will be required in any case. The company usually fits the regulator (crappy CBE PRS240) in the cabinet above the bench (1.5-2m cable run) and that's where it will have to go if there is no space below. It's most likely going to be the victron smart solar 100/30 once I figure out exactly how much roof space I can dedicate to solar panels. Then I also need to consider where to mount the BMV display and an inverter (Victron Phoenix 250 will do for laptops and such). mikefitz - 2019-09-28 10:00 AM] I cannot find any data on the DS470 but suspect it operated in a similar way to the DS300. This uses a internal relay switched by an 'ignition on' from the vehicle circuits, (or D+ if available), to connect the vehicle and leisure batteries together. Some applications disable the internal ( not very good) relay and use an external higher current relay. I'm beginning to think the "new" DS470 might not actually exist and it will actually be supplied with a DS300. But your comment about the mediocre relay has me thinking there might be a practical current limit. 300Wp could in theory produce upwards of 20A and if faking a control signal is an issue then connecting straight to the battery makes more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 The DS470 was announced at Dussledorf, a few years ago, 2015?, as a partner to the PC380. I have found that the DS470 is not listed in the CBE catalogue, despite the PC380 being included. It is my belief that most of the functions are carried out on the DSxxx, and that the PCxxx only carries the various control switches (touch sesitive or push button), as well as handling the displays. The split charge relay used in the DS300 and DS520 is a Tyco (TE Connectivity) Power Relay F7, rating 70A at 23C. If I have got the details correct the actual Tyco product code is V23134-J0052-D642. This is in fact the plug in version of the relay that CBE have used, rather than the PCB version. However as previously stated the DS470 could be different in function, to the earlier DS300 and DS520. The DS520 with which I am familiar uses a Hall effect device between the Out +ve and B2 +ve terminals, to monitor B2 current. If connecting solar directly to B2, the solar current would not be included, but as you are proposing a battery monitor, you are probably not concerned. Mike has mentioned disabling the integral CBE split charge relay when using an external higher spec relay. In my opinion this pcb surgery is unnecessary. My approach was to install an external C/O relay in front of the DS520 B1+ve terminal, operated by simulated D+ from the DS520. This relay was used to divert the fridge 12V power away from the DS520, and in the released state monitoring of B1 voltage was maintained. As the standard fridge output was connected on the B2 side of the split charge relay, an immediate improvment in B2 charging results. The option to add an external split charge relay remains. This relay could be sited closer to the batteries and so further improve B2 charging by reducing cable losses. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 The DS 470 was mentioned in 2014 here https://www.aboutcampbtob.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/N7_CBE.pdf and there’s a reference to an alternative “450” version that was enquired about in 2014 here https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/help-with-cbe-panel.82561/ Rapido has fitted the 450 Distribution Box to some upper-end models and a fuse-listing for it appears in the User Manual for my 2015 motorhome. Carthago has also fitted the 450. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 I can now confirm it's a DS300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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