LovinLuna Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Hi folks, I am hoping someone can shed light on two small issues I am experiencing with my Lunar Champ A520. I am fairly electrically savvy, but the first problem has me a little stumped, unless it is being caused by the second question! First off, the MH has had a few other owners before me, and at some point someone appears to have added a "Battery Master Leisure>Engine battery charging system ( Https://www.vanbitz.com/product/battery-master/ ) . There is evidence that a solar panel has been connected at some point in the past too. The Battery Master is still connected, but no wires from the solar remain. On the Calira panel, there is an LED which I believe illuminates when the habitation battery is full, and the Calira charger has now also connected to the vehicle battery to charge it also. ( I have bought the manual for the Calira charger, but cannot find instruction for the Bord control panel) and believe that is what the Calira charger is meant to do. The first issue I have is that when both batteries are being charged, the habitation door step light and outside lights do not work. I can only assume that the vehicle is switching these off as it thinks the engine is running providing power to the Calira charger. I can make the lights work by turning on the ignition for a short time until the LED on the panel extinguishes, and I can then use the door lights normally. I have not yet disconnected the Battery Master device to see if that is causing) the issue, in case someone knows another reason for this behaviour. ( I forgot to check if the lights would work or not with the engine running before returning the MH to storage ) Secondly, do I even need this Battery Master device ? Is it causing the issue ? From the Calira manual : Mains operation (all voltage values with respect to a battery temperature of 20 °C) When connecting to the mains of 230 volt, the supply battery is charged first. Once the supply battery reaches a voltage of 14.3 volt, it is switched in parallel with the starter battery. If the charging current rises to its rated value due to a user and the battery voltage falls below 13.2 volt, then the parallel connection is automatically disconnected. The starter battery thus always remains ready to start. When connecting external solar cells, the starter battery is also charged provided that the voltage of the supply battery has reached 14.3 volt. If the voltage of the supply battery drops below 13.2 volt, the parallel circuit is disconnected again. It seems strange that this has only occurred despite owning and using the MH for 8 months, and hasn't been an issue to date. I should add that I have tested both the batteries which show a 95% state of health and the issue occurred on EHU, (we have only used the MH at facilities with EHU to date) and have not had any other electrical gremlins or issues, except when the electrics stopped completely, a multiplug had came out of the base of the Calira unit, which is how I found the Battery Master connected below it. I refitted the plug quite some time ago and all has been well since. I hope this isn't too long winded or confusing, I have studied the forums for quite some time, but haven't found anything on this particular problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums. There’s some information about Calira chargers on this webpage http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/calira.php and the final section "SOLAR POWER AND THE CALIRA” includes the warning DO NOT USE a Battery Master style device on these vehicles to trickle charge the Starter battery as false triggering of the Calira can occur. The owner of the website (Allan Evans) tragically passed away recently and I am sure, if he were still with us, he would have been able to offer more detailed advice. I suggest you disconnect the Battery Master and see what if any effect that has. If the issue remains, at least you’ll know that the Battery Master is not the culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovinLuna Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-10-31 6:47 PM Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums. There’s some information about Calira chargers on this webpage http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/calira.php and the final section "SOLAR POWER AND THE CALIRA” includes the warning DO NOT USE a Battery Master style device on these vehicles to trickle charge the Starter battery as false triggering of the Calira can occur. The owner of the website (Allan Evans) tragically passed away recently and I am sure, if he were still with us, he would have been able to offer more detailed advice. I suggest you disconnect the Battery Master and see what if any effect that has. If the issue remains, at least you’ll know that the Battery Master is not the culprit. Many thanks for the link and info Derek. I will disconnect the Battery Master before my next trip, and also test if the door lights work with the engine running or not also. Regards, Willy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 I suspect that the Calira charger incorporates a "split charge" function which acts via a voltage sensitive relay a VSR (rather than directly sensing an alternator signal). With the battery master in place, and on EHU, a charge will be passed also to the vehicle battery, at a level that causes the VSR to cut in. The vehicle and leisure batteries will then be in parallel, and effectively charging at the same rate, More so than this, any item that is wired to not work whilst on the move, possibly the awning light etc. May well depend on the VSR to cut their function. On EHU, and above the leisure battery charge level that causes the battery master to function (if indeed there is a limit point) the Calira will think you're on the move. (Not sure of your particular kit, but current Calira chargers strongly imply use of a VSR or equivalent) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 LovinLuna Please could you give the Calira number on the control-panel fitted to your Champ? And, as you managed to obtain a manual for the Calira charger, what the charger reference number is too. There are quite a few on-line discussions relating to the Calira electric equipment fitted to Lunar Champ motorhomes (and to the Home-Car clones) including some on this forum (2014 example here) https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Lunar-Champ-A511-Outside-habitation-lights-u-s/36842/ As I understand it, when your Lunat Champ has been on EHU in the past (during the 8 months you’ve owned the motorhome) and the starter and leisure batteries were both being charged, the step and outside lights could be turned on and would illuminate. But now those lights remain ‘dead’ until the motorhome’s ignition has been switched on until a LED on the control-panel extinguishes. Logically, if the Battery Master is ‘confusing’ the Calira system, one might expect it to have always done this, but the issue you’ve mentioned has only shown up recently. Anyway, disconnecting the Battery Master shouldn’t do any harm and might do some good. Once you’ve disconnected the Battery Master, I suggest you confirm - when your Champ is on EHU - that the starter battery is actually being charged as well as the leisure battery and, if so, that you establish what voltage each battery is receiving. Battery Master-type devices are often employed when a motorhome’s electrical system is only able to charge the leisure battery, so it would be worth checking that the Calira system is operating as the manual states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Derek, it would certainly be usefult to know the Calira model number. I've found further references to further Calira charger/power supply units, and these also indicate the (potential) use of a VSR (incorporated as standard and used as an alternative to D+ sensing when this is not readily available) for split/charge duties. Use of a Battery Master in parallel (and on EHU) is likely (as noted elsewhere) to cause "confusion", but, if I can get my head around what might happen, it is going to be dependent on the switching regimes of both the Calira and the Battery Master (both, I think, voltage-dependent), and the electrical state at any one time will depend on both these and the current state of charge of each of the batteries. (since the voltages of each have an effect on what each unit is doing). Accordingly, at any point, the presented symptoms might be quite different, and will vary over time. If indeed the Calira is utilising a VSR, I wouldn't want to use a Battery Master alongside it (at least whilst on EHU). As there appears to have been solar installed at some point, the use of a Battery Master "switched in" when only solar (and not EHU) is available might make sense to share some of the solar charge with the vehicle battery, but I suspect that the Calira VSR might even then have the effect of paralleling the batteries itself, thereby compromising at least some of the Battery Master function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovinLuna Posted November 1, 2019 Author Share Posted November 1, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-11-01 8:52 AM LovinLuna Please could you give the Calira number on the control-panel fitted to your Champ? And, as you managed to obtain a manual for the Calira charger, what the charger reference number is too. Hi Derek, the calira unit is a 38/20 ( EVS 38/20 - DS/IU as shown on the aandncaravan link you provided ) Thanks again for your help. I will make a note and run a sequence of tests before I use the MH again, not that it is unusable, but have lost the convenience of just using those outside lights now the darker evenings are here. Regards, Willy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovinLuna Posted November 1, 2019 Author Share Posted November 1, 2019 Robinhood - 2019-11-01 9:20 AM If indeed the Calira is utilising a VSR, I wouldn't want to use a Battery Master alongside it (at least whilst on EHU). As there appears to have been solar installed at some point, the use of a Battery Master "switched in" when only solar (and not EHU) is available might make sense to share some of the solar charge with the vehicle battery, but I suspect that the Calira VSR might even then have the effect of paralleling the batteries itself, thereby compromising at least some of the Battery Master function. Thanks Robinhood, I think I got my head around some of this, and can see how 2 systems connected, ( the battery master which might never have been needed !) may be causing all sorts of potential issues. I will of course be disconnecting the battery master, if my Calira unit is functioning correctly it may negate the need for it at all. I will as suggested check all the voltages with the EHU connected to verify that the Calira does provide charge to the chassis battery when the habitation battery is charged. Many thanks, Willy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 The 38/20 is certainly described as having a VSR which can be used as an alternative to the D+ signal. If the starter battery to Calira connection were removed, then the Battery Master would provide some function (though as it appears that the Calira will handle parallel charging even when only on Solar, the only value I can see it adding is if the vehicle is laid up, and the vehicle battery can then be kept topped up from the leisure battery). As you say you've re-inserted the multiplug, I wonder whether the starter battery was originally disconnected, and you've now re-activated it? It seems unlikely, as the same multiplug (assuming it's the 12-pole with pins designated 16-27 in the manual) will also be responsible for charging the leisure battery, but there's just a chance. Another possibility strikes me, and that is that the unit was set up to use the D+ signal (it isn't entirely clear where that would be input, though the manual describes Pin 18, and that is possibly/probably on that same multiplug). If the D+ signal were not available for some reason, then it may have reverted to voltage sensing (as it says it is designed to do). That would invoke somewhat different behaviour to that if the D+ signal were available. It might be worth checking pin 18 to see if it is wired (in which case I would expect it to be set up for D+ sensing), and also check whether a signal is generated on that wire with the engine running. I have to say that I've never before pondered on what the D+ line would deliver (e.g. zero volts or ground) with the engine not running, and the answer to that might define whether the VSR capability is always active, but complementary to the D+ working, or whether the D+ signal being either present (running) or at, say, ground (engine off) completely disables the VSR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auditor Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Just wondering, if the Calira charging system has failed, at sometime in the past, and that the Battery master was installed to carry out the charging function? Calira charging failures, are well documented, and many owners have resorted to keeping the Calira unit, so that the Bord control panel,and the spllt charging function still works, and simply adding an additional charger. Disconnecting the Battery master, could well prove if this is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 There’s a long ‘technical’ discussion about the Calira 38/20 unit here https://forums.motorhomefacts.com/182-electrical/39346-calira-evs-38-20-circuit-diagram.html No idea if it will help ... :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovinLuna Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 Took "Luna" away last minute last weekend, so didn't have time to run through all my planned tests, but in the limited time available to me, I disconnected the Battery Master before our journey. Things appeared to be sorted 100% everything working as I expected, until my wife left both outside lights on for maybe 10 or 15 minutes when going to the site washrooms, and during this time I just happened to be inside the cab door area and witnessed the interior step light extinguishing (it is linked to one of the outside lights, both lights appear to have a common feed, but are on adjacent switches). I checked the outside lights, both were now off. No one near anything, nothing moving the vehicle, no switches operated. I turned both switches off for a short time and when I turned them back on all the lights illuminated, as if they were possibly on a timer ! I know it is a very long shot, but at one time it was possible to purchase 12v delay timers for car interior lights, and I wonder if some one has added something similar to these lights so that they only remain on for a limited time. I will of course have to add a stopwatch to my list of tools when I get the time to fully test the vehicle! At least I think I can rule out the battery master interfering with the calira unit, and can confirm that both batteries still get charged the calira unit, after removing the battery master.Thanks again for all of your inputs :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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