Camper van/ lowline motorhome weights

[Mickydripin]

Hi all,

i am still looking for the above but I just wish that when people advertise in the Magazine/ Ebay or elsewhere

that they would put the weight of their van that they are selling it would help people a lot that can not drive vehicles over 3.5 ton.

Not many people do this so then you have to trawl through the internet backwards and forwards.

Please add your van weight of the vehicle that you are selling it would help a lot.

MMM mag editor if you read this please ask your advertisers to do the same.

Many thanks. Mike.

[mtravel]

I believe that no one puts the weight because once loaded the driver, wife, dog, water and gas 85% of them would be at the limit of 3.5 tons and nobody would buy them ...

 

After all, the weight is a state secret, until not many years ago the manufacturers were careful not to indicate the weight in brochures and at fairs.

Not even subjected to torture would a salesman have declared the real weight of a motorhome he wanted to sell.

Maybe Hymer started doing it with its configurators and this forced the others to come out.

[Mickydripin]

Hi Mtravel,

As you may know after 65 you can not drive a vehicle over 3.5 ton unless you pass a test or apply for a seven and a half ton licence that is why I am asking for a vehicle with a 3.5 ton max weight is that too much to ask?

[mtravel]

Obviously it is a legitimate and understandable question.

But I wonder if you have a motorhome with an unladen weight of, say, of 3.1ton and would like to sell it if you would indicate its weight.

 

Do you have a C1 (non-professional) driving license ?

[simian]

Mickydripin - 2022-05-27 1:49 PM

 

Hi Mtravel,

As you may know after 65 you can not drive a vehicle over 3.5 ton unless you pass a test or apply for a seven and a half ton licence that is why I am asking for a vehicle with a 3.5 ton max weight is that too much to ask?

 

Not to forget, that if you passed your Car Test prior to 1997, you have so called 'Grandfather Rights' (or Granny) which permits you to drive a vehicle over 3.5t and under 7.5t, ie a C1 Licence. This auto right lapses on reaching 70, unless application is made for a 3 year extension which requires satisfactory completion of a less than rigorous medical and eyesight test, along with health declaration (Form D4) and a C1 Licence Application (Form D2).

If you're a young rooster then its the C1 Licence with Test or the C...... the price of being young! But at least the C gives you higher tonnage rights.

[Keithl]

Mickydripin - 2022-05-27 1:49 PM

 

As you may know after 65 you can not drive a vehicle over 3.5 ton unless you pass a test or apply for a seven and a half ton licence that is why I am asking for a vehicle with a 3.5 ton max weight is that too much to ask?

I always thought the age was 70 and not 65.

 

Yes, according to Gov.uk the age is 70 https://www.gov.uk/renew-driving-licence-at-70

 

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

Michael, most vans will have a maximum permissible laden weight of 3.5 tonnes. The real question, however, is whether such vans have an adequate payload at 3.5 tonnes and, sadly, quite a few don't. I think this is a bigger "bear trap" for buyers than merely the legal max permissible weight of the van.

 

This payload ambiguity is exacerbated by various manufacturers who publish figures for their van's Mass in Running Order (MIRO) using what I would describe as "cooked" figures (i.e. presented in a form that maximises the claimed payload).

 

This is likely to be done by, for instance, by only counting a nominal amount of water in the fresh water tank, so that a van with a 100 litre tank may be advertised with what appears a substantial payload - but hidden in the MIRO calculation "fine print" will be that the payload is calculated with only, for instance, 20 litres of water carried (or in the case of many UK produced vans, with none carried).

 

This can only be discovered by getting hold of the technical details of the van for its year of manufacture, and looking for how they have calculated payload.

 

Another thing that is almost invariably included is the weight of the driver at 75kg, which means that you have to adjust the MIRO to take account of your own weight - unless you happen to weigh exactly 75kg. No matter how many belted seats are included, there will be no allowance for the weights of passengers, all of which must be deducted from the claimed payload.

 

Gas is usually included, but often based on a single 6kg cylinder (even if the gas locker can take 13kg cylinders (and even if the gas locker can take mire than one cylinder), usually at 90% full. You then need to take into account that the 6kg weight is only the weight of the gas, and that an empty cylinder itself will weigh in the region of 9kg. So a 90% full 6kg gas cylinder will weigh, in total, about 14kg, and a full one about 15kg. A full 13kg cylinder will be in the region of 28kg. So, further adjustments required there.

 

Bear in mind also that the MIRO will most probably be based the most basic specification of the van with no converter's or base vehicle options included, and often without a wind-out awning.

 

So, to give a truly accurate figure for payload, anyone advertising a van for sale would need to include a lot of information that, in all probability, they have never calculated and don't know.

 

If you see a van that you like to look of, I think the best way to discover if it will suit you, will be to first go to the manufacturer's website and , if possible, download their brochure - which in almost all cases will give a figure for MIRO, and a figure for its maximum permissible laden weight (or MAM - Maximum Allowable Mass). Then look for how they have calculated MIRO, and deduct all their calculations from their MIRO figure. So, if you weigh more, or less, than 75kg, adjust the 75kg to your own weight. Do likewise for all passengers. Correct, if necessary, the weight of fresh water to correspond with what you will carry. Ditto gas.

 

You've had experience of motorhoming, so I assume you will know the weight of what you normally expect to carry in terms of food, liquids, camping kit, clothing, bedding, etc, and then deduct these from the MAM, and compare the result to the corrected MIRO figure. If it is less, you should be OK, but if more you'll need to start looking at the weights of potions added to the van.

 

It is unwelcome graft, but I can't see any other way to work out whether the van will work for you. Whether you can actually drive it on your licence should be readily clear from the manufacturer's published MAM for that van, and that year of it's production. Hope the above is reasonably clear, the boss is rushing me for our meal!! Apologies if not!

[Derek Uzzell]

As I understand Mike's complaint, It's nothing to do with payload. It's simply that, when a motorhomes is advertised, its Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW, MAM, MTPLM, whatever) is often not immediately evident from the advert - and this is irritating for buyers who have just a "B" driving-licence entitlement that restricts them to driving vehicles with a GVW no greater than 3500kg.

 

I don't know what the current percentage is in the UK of motorists that have a C1 (or 'higher') driving-licence entitlement that permits them to drive over-3500kg GVW vehicles. Nor, of those C1 and higher licence holders, what percentage might be interested in buying a motorhome (though that particular percentage will be decreasing as the motoring population ages and grandfather rights are lost or discarded at age 70).

 

The majority of motorhomes sold in the UK (historically and currently) will have a GVW not exceeding 3500kg and, where the GVW does exceed 3500kg, this is either a strong probability from an advert's photos of the vehicle or will be stated somewhere within the advert itself.

 

I browsed through a batch of current Autotrader motorhome adverts and - knowing Mike's motorhome history and what I was pretty sure he'd be looking for size-wise - I didn't see any that I thought he'd be interested in that I thought would have had a GVW over 3500kg. That doesn't mean, of course, that there might have been a reasonably small camper/motorhome that started out with an up-to-3500kg GVW and subsequently had its GVW uprated, but I'd have expected that fact to have been stated in the advert's detailed description of the vehicle.

 

I'm unconvinced that being unable to immediately identify a motorhome's GVW from an advert is a major problem for buyers. If a buyer just assumes that any motorhome advertised in the UK has a GVW not exceeding 3500kg, most of the time that will be true.

[Brian Kirby]

I agree with all of that Derek. Most motorhomes are likely to have an MAM of 3,500kg, with which he will be OK on his licence, and it should be fairly easy to spot them.

 

What I was trying to highlight for Mike's benefit, was that beyond the licence issue, many of the vans that can be driven legally on a "B" driving licence are liable to misleading payload claims which, from the numerous pleas over time of forum members for information on up-plating, seems to have caught out a substantial number of owners.

 

In effect, first find your van, then check that you will be able to legally drive it around in real world terms without worrying whether it is overloaded, or finding it disappointingly restricts what they can actually carry if they are to avoid overload.

 

It seems that the manufacturers are very aware that most prospective buyers will be restricted to 3.5 tonne vans, and also that the larger, more spacious, vans have the widest buyer appeal. So, for marketing purposes, they overstate the payload - by "trimming" the definition of MIRO - so as to claim unfeasibly high user payloads. Very annoying, and potentially expensive, if one buys unaware of this potential pitfall, and then finds that one's new toy doesn't work in practice. Caveat emptor is fine in principle, so long as the emptor is made aware of the caveat!

[Derek Uzzell]

I'm certain Mike's 2009 traumatic experience of buying a motorhome with inadequate payload will have made him paranoid about such potential problems.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Buyer-beware/17385/

[tonyishuk]

Brian Kirby - 2022-05-28 12:15 PM

 

I agree with all of that Derek. Most motorhomes are likely to have an MAM of 3,500kg, with which he will be OK on his licence, and it should be fairly easy to spot them.

!

 

The problem there is that a number of continental mhomes can be 3500 or 3800 kg variants for the same model. This seemingly is down by maximising the loads carried on the axles.

 

When I purchased my Rapido I was given a choice of either weight. I have no idea if that is still the case.

 

In all probably, until the VIN plate with the axle loads , etc is verified, there is a need to be vigilant in what is purchased.

 

Rgds

[weldted]

Our 2019 Burstner was sold plated at 4000 kgs. On the water tank the drain tap has 2 positions 1 st one leave 20 litres in the tank 2 nd drains it completely

[Derek Uzzell]

tonyishuk - 2022-05-28 4:44 PM

 

...When I purchased my Rapido I was given a choice of either weight. I have no idea if that is still the case...

 

 

When the Ducato X290 was released in mid-2014, the Fiat 'light' camping-car chassis had a GVW of 3650kg as standard. Rapido offered coachbuilt motorhomes based on that chassis with a GVW of 3500kg, but buyers had a no-cost option of specifying a 3650kg GVW instead if they so wished. I don't know if other motorhome manufacturers had a similar policy, but (as this late-2021 forum thread discussed) the potential for a 3650kg GVW was always there.

 

Rapido also offered (offers?) buyers the option with some models to choose a Ducato 'heavy' chassis rather than the 'light' version and this ups the GVW significantly. And then there are motorhomes using an AL-KO AMC chassis where the GVW of 'light chassis' versions may be well over 3500kg.

 

While it would certainly do no harm if every UK advert for a motorhome always included the vehicle's GVW, realistically this only becomes important when the motorhome's GVW exceeds 3500kg as that weight has driving-licence and VED implications.

 

(It might be useful to know what provoked Mike's original posting.)

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2022-05-28 1:50 PM

I'm certain Mike's 2009 traumatic experience of buying a motorhome with inadequate payload will have made him paranoid about such potential problems.

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Buyer-beware/17385/

Yes, and I had that very much in mind when, replying. So tortured and complex was Mike's experience over the purchase of his first van, that I never quite understood whether he had, actually, bottomed out the additional difficulties that some manufacturers present to their potential customers when advertising their products and their usable payloads.

 

For those who may not know the background Mike bought a new 3,500kg MAM Ducato based SEA Sharky van back in 2007 which, on close examination, turned out to have been built in error on a 3,300kg MAM Ducato chassis. He the therefore sought to reject the vehicle as unfit for purpose under consumer legislation. At the time there was one other van known to have been built in error on the same 3,300kg MAM Ducato chassis.

 

Fortunately, it seems this sort of error is, mercifully, very rare, but it does point to the wisdom of checking that what you are being sold is, actually, exactly what you expect it to be, and to the difficulties you may encounter if you only discover, after having taken delivery, that it is not.

 

The story is a long and winding testament to Mike's sheer determination and grit in the face of unconscionable resistance and obstruction from the dealer who sold it, culminating three years later with a replacement van. Because he rejected the van, he was unable to use during that period of time, but nevertheless had to maintain it in good condition.

 

If interested, the story begins here: https://tinyurl.com/2fslju76 continues here: https://tinyurl.com/5ptfrpzz - and finally ends on a happy note here: https://tinyurl.com/2p99rcjn - and what a sad and sorry tale it is.

 

I think this experience well illustrates Mike’s frustration with the minimal information that dealers and private sellers provide when advertising their vehicles for sale, and the reason why he has such low expectations of motorhome dealerships.

 

Going on from that is the vexed (‘though as Derek pointed out above, separate) issue of achieving clarity over what actual, usable, payload your van may have, and how to establish whether the manufacturer’s advertised payload bears a reasonable semblance to the actual, usable, “real life” payload. In far too many cases, it will not.

 

[Mickydripin]

Hi all,

so many questions to answer but I will try.

Yes sorry I said over 65 it should have read over 70, I was a HGV driver for over 40 years and DVLA took my Heavy goods licence off me I had head and all down my right side injuries when I saved a driver from being burnt to death in a road accident,But DVLA said that I could keep my car licence if I wanted anything different then I would have to get a medical assessment by a specialist and you know how much that will cost.

So I decided to stick to 3.5 ton which has worked out OK with motorhomes/campervans that I have had in the past that have given me up to between 500 and 650Kg payload which have been adequate for me.

That is why when I look for another van I need it to be up to 3.5 ton to start with Then I can enquire about payload,But when I look I have to delve into the internet and it takes a lot longer to find out what is ok and what is not.

Derek and Brian have hit the nail on the head and all the replys have given me a lot to think about.

But in my head I need the gross weight of the vehicle for sale before I enquire then I only have to ask one question E.G what is the payload. "does that make sense"?.

Mike.

[Brian Kirby]

It makes perfect sense to me, Mike - so long as you remember to check how the payload for that brand of motorhome has been calculated. :-D But that, way back in 2007, is where all this started! Good luck with your search.

[Mickydripin]

Hi Brian,

Thanks, but that Vile episode stays in the back of my Memory to make sure that lightening does not strike twice in the same place.

Mike.

[Tracker]

The MIRO and how it is arrived at is only part of the story as one needs to know the GVW - hopefully but not always 3500kg - to be able deduct MIRO from GVW to obtain theoretical, also allowing for extras like gas, awning, batteries, solar panels, water, etc, and passengers

Of greater importance is the payload and if one knows from previous experience roughly how much payload suits one's style of travel - say 400kg - then a MIRO of under 3100 kg is required and that is not easy to establish.

I agree with Micky that more transparency and integrity from a industry riddled with incompetence and economy of reality would not go amiss.

[Brian Kirby]

Mickydripin - 2022-05-30 7:13 PM

Hi Brian,

Thanks, but that Vile episode stays in the back of my Memory to make sure that lightening does not strike twice in the same place.

Mike.

Hi Mike, and FWIW, you're welcome. Regarding the scars from your experience, I bet they're at the back of your mind! I think they'd be at the back of anyone's mind, to the extent that lesser men would simply have said "never again"! The episode was an absolute disgrace.