Earthmover Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Hello there, I have at long last found out what battery is fitted to my Elddis Motorhome, Its A Varta 80Ah 700A (En) and measures 290mm long X180mm wide X 180mm high, there is room in the battery box to take longer battery of about 70mm. The question is will the alternator cope with more Ah?. The starter battery only charges off the Engine!. Not on hook-up or from the solar panel. Cheers Em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 Firstly I’m going to refer you to the ---- IDENTIFYING YOUR MOTORHOME ---- entry at the top of the Motorhome Matters forum hompage. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/-IDENTIFYING-YOUR-MOTORHOME-/54713/ You’ve enquired about battery-charging twice before https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Vehicle-and-Habitation-battery-charging-/57578/ https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Solar-AGM-battery-charging-/56248/ and said that the leisure-battery of your motorhome (a 2019 Elddis “CV” model based on a Fiat Ducato ‘light’ panel-van) was a YUASA AGM product and (very surprisingly) that - when you had removed the vehicle’s starter-battery - there was no labelling on that battery to identify its make, type or specification. I can’t find any starter-battery in Varta’s current range that matches the dimensions you’ve provided (Tayna listing of Varta 80Ah batteries here) https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/varta/?ordering=&A-22=80 and what I’d expect to find in a recent-ish Ducato’s starter-battery underfloor compartment is a battery with dimensions of Length=353 mm Width=175 mm Height (including terminals)=190 mm with a capacity of 95Ah to 100Ah and a CCA of about 800A (In fact, if 70mm were added to the length figure of 290mm that you’ve given the result would be 360mm, your width of 180mm is near enough 175mm (which is a very common width for vehicle batteries) and your 180mm height measurement may not include the terminals.) I was never comfortable with your being unable to identify your motorhome’s starter-battery and I’m intrigued that you now ‘know’ it’s a Varta 80Ah battery. The starter-battery compartment of all Ducatos built since mid-2006 should be able to accommodate a 353mm (L) x175mm (W) x 190mm (H) battery with an Ah of 90 to 100, and that size battery should have no negative effect on the vehicle’s charging system. Before contemplating replacing the current starter-battery, I think you need to re-check exactly what specification and TYPE (eg. ‘wet-acid’ or AGM) it is. It’s possible, I suppose, that Fiat might have bought in ‘unlabelled’ Varta batteries for Ducatos, but whatever you’ve currently got in your Elddis’s battery compartment doesn’t seem right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 We had a 2012 Elddis Aspire on the Peugeot 2200cc. When the battery started to fail, I replaced it with the one for the 3000 cc Fiat. The battery box is the same size on the X 250/290 which ever engine is fitted. Alternator coped fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajohno Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 The alternator is not the issue, a vehicle battery is a storage device and only used when starting the engine or powering lights etc when the engine is stopped or at idle, The alternator provides all electrical power when the engine is running as well as recharging the battery(s). More importantly is the type of battery for the application, size wise, Tayna website has the facility to input the dimensions, it will then list all the batteries available to match that size, it's then up to the purchaser to decide which type and size suits the application, its the way I upgraded my habitation battery to fit the battery box in my old MH and find better batteries to fit my Motorcycles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 When Fiat Ducatos built from mid-2006-onwards were fitted with a 3.0litre motor, the starter battery’s dimensions were Length=393 mm Width=175 mm Height (including terminals)=190 mm If the Ducato were fitted with a smaller capacity motor, the starter battery’s dimensions were Length=353 mm Width=175 mm Height (including terminals)=190 mm The factory-fitted batteries were FIAMM products and marked “Sevel”. The equivalent Varta “Silver Dynamic” batteries would be these https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/varta-silver-dynamic/610-402-092 https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/varta-silver-dynamic/600-402-083 In early 2020 I replaced my 2015 Ducato’s original FIAMM battery with a Varta Silver Dynamic 600 402 083 (353mm (L) x175mm (W) x 190mm (H)). Before carrying out the task I carefully inspected the underfloor compartment in the Ducato’s cab where the starter-battery is housed to check if the 393mm-long 110Ah battery would fit, but I wasn’t confident this would be practicable so I opted for the 353mm-long 100Ah version that (in any case) i was sure would be perfectly adequate. I don’t know if a Ducato’s battery-compartment was altered after the 3.0litre motor was discontinued, but - when I fitted the Varta replacement battery - I concluded that, if I had chosen the longer battery, its extra 40mm length might have interfered with the existing wiring and vent-tube arrangement. I also don’t know what motor Earthmover’s Elddis has (though it will undoubtedly be 2.3 litre capacity) or if it has Fiat’s Startt&Stop system. If it has Stop&Start, it might have an EFB or AGM starter-battery (rather than an ordinary ‘wet-acid’ type) or a battery with larger dimensions (eg. the 393mm-long battery). But what I would definitely not expect is that it would have a Fiat-factory-fitted 80Ah battery with the ‘short’ length-dimension Earthmover gave above, My understanding from Earthmover’s earlier postings is that his Elddis motorhome was brand-new when he obtained it. Given that, when Earthmover removed the vehicle’s starter-battery, he found no markings/labels to allow it to be easily identified, and that he recognises that there is a lot of ‘spare’ space in the underfloor battery compartment, it’s near certain that the present battery is not what was originally fitted in Fiat's Italian factory. t’s possible that the current battery was installed during the Elddis conversion process, but more likely that it was fitted at the motorhome dealership that sold Earthmover the motorhome. It’s not difficult to imagine a scenario where the Fiat-factory-fitted battery failed (or was allowed to discharge completely) and a ’slave’ battery that happened to be handy was fitted as a temporary measure with the intention to replace it with the correct size/type battery later on, but this was not done. That’s just crystal-ball gazing, but one thing’s for sure - a small 80Ah battery ain’t right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 On Page 2 of this thread https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Euro-6-Ducatos-and-smart-alternators-/48494/31/ John52 provided a photo of the starter-battery compartment of his "new X2/90 E6” that (given the title of the thread) I presume is a Ducato. I’ve copied below a slightly 'tweaked’ version of his photo and two things should be evident. The 1st is that, near the battery’s negative terminal on the right, there’s a ‘black box’ with VARTA on it (red arrowed). The 2nd is that the battery is a reasonably tight fit lengthwise in the compartmemt with not a great deal of spare space at either end. As the battary has a VARTA component mounted on it, it may be that the battery itself is a VARTA product. And (assuming that the dimensions of the battery compartment of Euro 6 Ducatos are the same as those of my 2015 Euro 5 Ducato’s compartment) the length of the battery in the photo is likely to be at least 353mm. As most of the upper surface of the battery is hidden, it’s not possible to identify the make and/or type of the battery in the photo. However, if John52 can provide those details, there’s a fair chance that Earthmover’s motorhome should have the same (or at least an equivalent) starter-battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 As an Elldis it is more probably on the Peugeot Boxer base vehicle, so I'm not sure the battery will be the same as the Fiat Ducato variant ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 A not unreasonable assumption, except (as is evident from Earthmover's earlier comments elsewhere on this forum) the motorhome in question is an Elddis Autoquest "CV" panel-van conversion (possibly a "CV40") and these have all been built on a Fiat Ducato base. https://motorhomesltd.com/product/elddis-autoquest-cv40-2021/ He confirmed the Ducato base-vehicle here https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-Ducato-Recall-2019-2020-vehicles/58028/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefitz Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 Standard battery is a 019 series, example https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/019-bosch-car-battery/ There is room for the larger 020 series battery, sometimes fitted as an option. If the vehicle is start stop an AGM or EFB type battery may be needed, this may require the dealer to be involved. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthmover Posted May 28, 2021 Author Share Posted May 28, 2021 Hi, Thankyou to everyone who has taken the trouble to reply, I know what the battery is because I found a label after being told were to look. It is under the the large square plate connected to the positive terminal and all the other connections. When I first looked I could not remove this plate after loosening the terminal clamp, Why, well there is also two self tap screws going through the narrow red plastic strip (see Photo), this also holds the plate plate very firmly down, I have not come across this in 25 years of motor homes until I was put wise during a casual conversation, and at the time i did not want risk doing any damage. The engine battery is fine and doing the job it's just that it is much smaller than any other Ducato battery I have owned. The engine is a 2.3cc, automatic, NOT a start stop version. PS, It says Sevel on the label. Thanks again Cheers Em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 There’s plenty of online guidance about replacing the starter-battery of a mid-2006-onwards Ducato, including this blow-by-blow account on the Fiat Forum. https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/357146-x250-replacing-starter-battery.html (In that thread the battery compartment has a steel protective cover over the battery and there’s a plastic protective cover above the fuse ‘busbar’ on the battery’s positive terminal. However, one or both of those protective covers may not be fitted and my 2015 Ducato does not have them.) The thread has several photos including one (attached below) showing the red plastic component through which two screws go into ‘expansion plugs’ that fit into corresponding holes in the battery’s upper surface and hold the busbar in position. I don’t know how commonplace this arrangement is (plainly, when there’s no busbar, there will be no need for it) but the Varta Silver Dynamic replacement battery I fitted to my Ducato had the appropriate holes in its upper surface and the busbar connected to the Varta battery in exactly the same manner as the original (OEM) FIAMM/Sevel battery had done. As the Varta battery in Earthmover’s Ducato has “Sevel” on its label, it’s reasonable to assume that it was produced specifically to be factory-fitted by Fiat. I can’t find any battery that matches the 290mm long x 180mm wide x 180mm high dimensions Earthmover gave in his original posting - but I don’t know where on the battery he was measuring (eg including terminal height or not) or how carefully the measurements were taken. A list of battery codes is here https://www.puretyre.co.uk/car-battery-specification-chart/ The nearest length to 290mm would be 278mm and an “096T” battery would be expected to have an Ah around 80 and a CCA of around 700A. This is academic though, for - as has been emphasised above - received wisdom is that a mid-2006-onwards Ducato’s OEM starter-battery has been either a code “019” (around 353mm long) or a code “020” (around 393mm long) and Earthmover’s battery is much shorter. (I guess it’s possible that a Ducato with the 2.0litre Fiat motor might have had a smaller battery, but Earthmover’s 2.3litre version should have at least a code “019” battery.) I don’t think there will be any means of identifying who is to ‘blame’ for this. Earthmover’s current battery MIGHT have been fitted in error when the Ducato was built in Italy, or gained the battery later on. Whatever the history of this mismatch, there ought to be a larger capacity/longer starter-battery in Earthmover’s Ducato and, although the current Varta 80Ah 700A has evidently been performing adequately, it stands to reason that it cannot have the potential 100Ah 800A-900A available from a good quality “019” battery. Earthmover has not said whether his 2019 Ducato has had its first Fiat service yet, but if not and the vehicle is still under warranty, the battery-size issue should really be explored with a Fiat Professional agent. Me, I’d want a new “019” battery free of charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 The holes in the battery casing that the fuse terminal plate is screwed into are common on many batteries and intended to accommodate the push fit lugs on plastic terminal cover flaps which may be fitted on some vehicles to protect the battery cable terminals. They are utilised on Sevel vans to "hold" the fuse terminal plate in its correct orientation when fitting it, but once the clamp connection to the battery positive terminal has been tightened, serve very little purpose apart from perhaps some additional support to the plate. Because the two screws are fitted directly into the battery casing, great care should be taken not to overtighten them due to the obvious risk of cracking or otherwise damaging the battery casing. To that end, the red plastic link between the two screws acts as an indicator. If it starts to deform, as is evident in the image attached to Derek's post above, they have already been overtightened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 The two screws do not go directly into the battery's casing. The red plastic link carries 'expansion plugs' on its underside and, when the screws enter those plugs, the plugs expand so that they grip against the inside of the holes in the battery's casing (eg. like rawlplugs). In my garage I have my Rapido's original FIAMM starter-battery and the original Banner leisure-battery. Both have 'holes' for the lugs of in-transit covers that can be fitted over the terminals - but it's visually obvious that those holes are much too large in diameter for the screws that go through the red plastic link to grip against the holes' inner wall. This MHFun thread https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/flat-battery-do-take-care.166470/ includes the following advice about the red plastic thingie It holds together the two expansion plugs that the screws are in These hold the whole unit in place on the battery in addition to the terminal bolt It doesn’t matter if the plastic between the screws is broken as long as the screws are in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Yes I realise that Derek, but I stand by my comment. As with rawlplugs, the arrangement works because tightening the screws exerts radial pressure on the sides of the holes in the casing, which you acknowledge. If the design hadn't been intended to include a tension limit indication it would have been far simpler and more robust to produce the red moulding with a single rigid bar between the two plugs. The arrangement doesn't need to do anything other than resist unintentional rotation of the terminal plate whilst it is being clamped to the battery post or loosened, so it does not need to be tightened with any force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 I agree, tenderly caressing the two screws by hand with an appropriate Pozidriv screwdriver should be amply sufficient. The photo shows a socket-drive tool being used to tighten the screws - hardly an ideal approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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