Mick Bajcar Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 I have a Welcome 76, 2009 and I have found that the battery has been getting flat as I drive and have established that the fridge is not switching to run off the alternator but flattening the battery instead. This suggests a problem with a split charge relay, though I have yet to find one. There is one relay under the bed and another under the side seat but these seem ok. The battery charging light is on on the control panel when the engine is running. All the fuses that I have found are intact. Any suggestions please or ideas where a split charge relay may be. My French is unspectacular but I cannot see anything that may be a split charge relay on the circuit diagram here! http://chausson.trigano-pro.com/fichiers/chausson/wel%2076%20truma%20230(1).pdf Thanks Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 ...which battery is it flattening; the vehicle or the habitation? (you'd be looking for different issues depending on which). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian81 Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 The split charge is labelled 'boite relais securite' There are two -one split charge the other turns the habitation area electrics on and off via the a switch on the control panel. Sugggest one check would be when the vehicle is running does the LH green light on the control panel come on? If so the split charge relay is working and power is being fed to the secondary battery. If not suggest you check both the 5a and 50 amp in the boite relais securite. If you can find the 2 boites you should hear one clicking on and off when toggling the on off switch on the panel. For further help search for CBE -as they are maker of the electrics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Bajcar Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 Sorry, I didn't think of that. It is the leisure battery that is flattening Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Bajcar Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 Thanks, the on-off one certainly works and I have tried disconnecting the 'signal lead' too which causes everything to turn off as well. The green charging light is on on the control panel when the engine is running and all of the fuses are ok in both of those Boite relais Securite Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 I have studied the diagram to which you provided a link. Your symptoms suggest that the leisure battery (B2) may not be getting charged by the alternator. I would recommend that this is investigated first. With the engine running, the voltage across B2 should rise to about 14V. The charge current for B2 is routed via "platine distribution fiat montant droit cabine", but how does it get there? There may be a fuse between this point, and the vehicle battery (B1). The two wires M10 an N10 (Brown !0mm & Black 10mm) are the ones to follow onwards, via the high current 2 pole harness connector that is shown adjacent on the diagram. The brown 10mm wire routes to the split charge relay "banquette avd" and leaves as a red 10mm wire to terminate at + B2 at the 12V distribution board (module 12V). The negative wire, N10, routes directly to - B2 adjacent. On your diagram the control signal for the split charge relay is obtained from pin 2 of the 15 way connector on the above "platine ......." as a green 1mm wire, V1. (Ignition switch controlled.) This wire reaches the 12V module at pin of the 4 pole connector shown above + B2 connection point. The supplied voltage is monitored in the 12V module and at levels above about 13v it is allowed to output as a simulated D+ at the D+ terminal of the 12V module. The yellow wire, J 0.75 leaving at this terminal, routes to the split charge relay control connector. The return path for the split charge relay, black wire, N1.0 is connected to the "platine...", at the two pole connector, in parallel with N10. PLEASE TAKE GREAT CARE WHEN WORKING ON OR NEAR BATTERY TERMINALS. REMOVE ANY METAL WRIST WATCHES ETC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 On reflection may I suggest that you check the 3A fuse F10 on the 12V distribution board, This could be a simple answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Bajcar Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 Alan Thanks very much, There is certainly no voltage increase at B2 when the engine is started so that seems to be the root of the problem but the fact that the control panel shows that charging is taking place suggests that the problem is beyond Banquette AVD, so must be after Platine droit cabine (though the light on the control panel is undoubtedly a very low current signal from somewhere) It has driven me mad this problem and I bet there is a blown fuse somewhere, but very well hidden ! Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Bajcar Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 Alan Thanks again, I have checked that fuse (I have all of them actually) and I might have to resort to checking the holders yet too ! Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 I assume that B2 gets charged when on EHU, and will supply lights, water pump etc, when not on EHU. This proves that B2 is connected to the DB. Well it must be, or how else could the fridge discharge it? With CBE electrics there is usually only one power connection to B1. With the engine OFF you should still see B1 voltage at the "Platine Distribution .........", and at the brown 10mm wire connecting to the split charge relay (Banquette AVD) I am not familiar with the "Platine Distribution ,,,,,,,,", is this a Fiat item, or part of the conversion? I am presuming the latter, but that could be wrong. If B1 voltage present there, and at the split charge relay, try to locate the harness connector shown adjacent on the diagram. Has it separated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Bajcar Posted August 21, 2016 Author Share Posted August 21, 2016 Alanb Thanks you gave me some great pointers there, connectors were intact voltages as they should be etc and that left me to wonder about the relay itself so I removed the PCB in the relay box and there was a horrendous dry joint on the heavy current side that had clearly been arcing. It was probably supplying enough to the control panel to indicate charging but not enough to actually do anything ! Diabolical soldering actually. It looks as though it is a standard plug-in 30A relay that has been soldered in and then the pins have been snipped off - a recipe for problems IMHO. I have photographed it but need to get the whole relay out to be able to clean it (or replace it) and my soldering iron is not up to the job. I did not get to Platine distribution but as it says Fiat montant, I guess it is part of the Ducato - or fitted by Fiat as intended as a conversion. I will update with the photos later later. Thanks Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 Mick Bajcar - 2016-08-21 8:04 AM I did not get to Platine distribution but as it says Fiat montant, I guess it is part of the Ducato - or fitted by Fiat as intended as a conversion. Mick .....I would guess at it being the Fiat electrical distribution point added to vehicles intended for conversion and located (I think) in the bottom of the (drivers?) door pillar. Edited to add: If you're "playing about" with the distribution board, the wiring diagrams, further info, etc. available from the two links on this page: http://www.marcleleisure.co.uk/CBE/CBE01.htm ...may be useful if you haven't already got access to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 Mick, I am glad that you have identified the cause of your problems. I nearly mentioned this before, but was not sure of your level of electrical knowledge. It is wise to be aware that modern multimeters draw very little current, and will therefore indicate an acceptable voltage, when there is in fact considerable resistance in the circuit. I have a range of soldering irons and too many years of soldering experience, but near Selby in North Yorkshire, they are probably in the wrong part of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 The circuit-diagram Mick provided includes a CBE-made PC-150 control-panel and DS-300 ‘distribution box’. With this type of modular system there will be no separate split-charge relay, that relay’s function being performed by a ‘coupler/separator’ on the PCB within the DS-300. (This is probably what Mick is referring to in his last posting.) Just to complicate matters Chausson/Challeger has historically chosen to add a pair of "boite relais securite” units. These mysterious ‘boxes’ were discussed here http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/CBE-PC200-control-panel/40668/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Bajcar Posted August 21, 2016 Author Share Posted August 21, 2016 Derek and Alan I have not come to messing with the distribution box as yet, and am hoping not to need to but the problem I have found is indeed in one of the boite securite relais. If I do need to I will as I hate being beaten on something like this I am reasonably competent with a soldering iron but only have an 18W one which is not up to the task of removing a chunky thing like the relay so I will go and get a 40W one at Maplin and a solder pump too. I actually did an apprenticeship in the aircraft industry and went to Uni to do electronics but well over 40 years ago now and I have yet to find any valves in the motorhome :-D A joint as corroded as this on a high current device must be causing problems but it might yet not be THE problem ! Thanks for all the help I am being given Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Bajcar Posted August 21, 2016 Author Share Posted August 21, 2016 Well, with many thanks to all who have given advice, it is now fixed! When I removed the relay it is clear what a pathetic device this boite relais securite is. The pins of the relay had been cut so short that there was little chance of a decent contact. It seems perverse to me to need to bolt the high current cables together on the front of the Printed Circuit board, yet rely on feeble soldered connections underneath. The relay pins were coated, presumably in nickel yet they had not even been tinned for a decent connection. I replaced the relay with one from Maplin and now have a tad over 14v at the leisure battery with the engine running. Thanks again for all the help Note that on Image Boite 2 it shows the PCB discoloured around the offending connection, indicative of overheating Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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