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Citroen Relay 2.2 Unknown fault but good clues.


Kelvin

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Hi everyone, been lurking for a longtime and found the site so useful over the last 18 months, since I bought a 10 plate Ducato, semi-retired and cleared off to Spain last winter to climb for 7 months. The trip ended when someone hit me on the French motorway in April and my van rolled. When it's your home, it gets pretty stressful. A bit of a financial hit repatriating myself and my stuff. Plus fairly serious whiplash and knee injury.

I decided to buy an 07 Relay LWB off a mate who'd been out in Spain. Scruffier ( mine had been perfect till I had to offroad a lot in Spain), slightly noisy gearbox but reliable and convert it myself - you have pretty specific requirements as a climber as I found on the trip and it needed to also be a work van for when I'm back in the UK, I'm a decorator. Having a van and a MH doesn't make much sense if you want to winter in Spain.

 

When I acquired it, it was straight in the garage for a full service and checkover. The van ran well for a while, then a few niggly common faults like dash warning lights being random and glowing dimly in the dark. The EGR being playful due to lots of short journeys, the handbrake. Same stuff as on the previous Ducato. Five or six weeks ago, I was headed to Wales from Northampton, so on the M54 I kept the revs high and the gear low to clean out the EGR. About 20min along the A% it just lost all power. Pulled over let it cool and then spent a couple of hours limping to Wales. I assumed EGR and MAF.

Same trouble coming home, get it really warm and it lost all go. Into the garage, on the diagnostic and the dash lights had a little fit. Kept giving different things like MAF, EGR, P0600 k-line. We replaced the MAF. Test drive resulted in same issue when hot. Then the EGR. This was much better, it needed doing for sure but when it got hot, power lost. Floor the throttle and it was like you were choking it.

No faults coming up at all now, as I'd been through the wiring as Nick says to. Both the garage and myself. Found a repair on the salmon and red wire, so redid that, replaced the earths and added another one. But nothing on the diagnostic. Got it to do the fault at the garage and we decided it might be the catalytic converter was collapsing - expensive, so ordered a cat bypass pipe for Germany. Fitted that, had a drive on Friday for an hour and couldn't make it go wrong. Up hills, flooring the throttle at low revs. Assumed all was okay, the mechanics fitted a blanking plate on the EGR and I picked it up last night. Drove amazingly, no flat spot just under 2000rpm at all. Drove17 miles to work this morning and it was a dream. Coming home, suddenly lost power with a big puff of smoke. By the time I'd arrived home, it was again undrivable. Tried to get it to the garage but as soon as it was hot, game over, Limped back home.

So... only happens when hot. No fault codes or engine management light. Will give off smoke when it loses power but not so much and as often from the engine bay as the exhaust outlet. Seems to lose power sometimes as you go round a corner. A light throttle will sometimes get it working again for a while but a heavy foot renders it undrivable. Definite smell of unburnt fuel. Feels to me, as a 2-stroke rider for years, that it's flooding but that doesn't make any sense.

 

I live with an engine builder, the mechanics are great but Chevrolet specialists really and I have a fair few mechanic mates but we're all stumped. Latest suggestions are collapsing turbo pipes (would this cause unburnt fuel?), housemate thinks injectors but there are no problems on the diagnostic...

 

Really sorry to ask, I was trying not to but I'm proper stuck. The van is converted, ready for the winter but isn't going anywhere now. Sorry for any spelling mistakes, I'm a little dyslexic

 

Thanks..

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Hi not sure if your Citroën relay 2.2 is the same as the transit but we had a few 54reg transit 2.2 which were overheating and it turned out to be the drive from the power steering pump to the water pump that had failed so not turning the water pump correctly.

Pau,

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Hi Kelvin, perhaps I could make a few suggestions to help sort your van problems.

 

Check again the loom behind the nearside headlamp and the connectors to the ecu and fusebox. The multiple fault codes you had points to problems in this area. There may still be faults in the wires or connectors.

 

Check the loom and connectors to the injectors, and if possible sample the injector voltages with a diagnostic oscilloscope to ensure they are in spec.

 

The fact you have smoke/fumes in the engine compartment may be due to a leak on an injector seal or a leak on the output side of the turbo.

Check all hoses and pipes from the turbo to the intercooler and from the intercooler to the inlet manifold. Check the manifold and intercooler for cracks and splits. The running at high revs with a faulty EGR may have allowed hot exhaust gasses to damage the pipe from EGR to inlet manifold or even the inlet manifold itself. Have a good look at this area.

 

It would be worth carrying out a leak off test on the injectors and if there is any doubt get them tested by a diesel injection specialist.

Its possible a faulty sensor is effecting fuel flow, try capturing real time data (in particular fuel pressure) with the diagnostic kit and see if this gives any clues.

 

It’s worth changing the fuel filter element or even the complete housing.

 

The crankshaft position sensor sometimes plays up when hot but I would have thought it would show up on the diagnostic. It’s inexpensive but a pig to replace.

 

Don’t discount rodent damage, many automotive plastics have a bio percentage, which makes a ‘happy meal’.

 

Mike

 

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Hello,

 

I am not very familiar with the PSA engine (at least compared to the Fiat units) so i would urge you to get it on a Peugeot diagnostic machine at a main dealer. They can go into much more depth than generic garage systems and may just find something and save you a lot more unnecessary parts.

 

I should add that if this were a crank or cam sensor breaking down when hot; the engine would stall and there would definitely be a code for this and a warning light.

 

My gut instinct suggests that you may have a problem with your oil cooler, which would only come into play when the engine is up to temperature and if the pressure is wrong at that point the ECU could put the engine into a limp mode. Just a gut feeling though....but it could account for the vapour in the engine compartment?

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The engine in the 2.2 Relay is pure Ford, Ford Puma, as used in the Transit, its not the same as the 2.2 PSA used in some of the Ford car range.

The fault is said to occur without fault codes or engine fault light so it appears the engine is not in limp mode. Black smoke is either too much fuel or not enough air. This engine will run, but will be almost un drivable, with serious faults in the EGR loop or inlet tract from the turbo, and there wont necessarily be any codes shown.

The investigation needs to be carried out in a logical manner without jumping in and replacing parts on a whim. Most diagnostic kit can capture real time data whilst stationary or driving, it could help to find the fault.

The Citroen dealer may help, but in my experience unless there are codes, the main dealer won’t have a clue, however it may be worth a visit.

Your mechanic mates may not have the experience of working on a common rail diesel. Try to find a small garage dealing with commercial vehicles.

 

Out of interest, there have been some instances where faulty fueling on this engine has resulted in piston failure. This is one area where the main dealer can help, as the relevant software updates are often added during scheduled servicing.

 

Mike

 

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So which sensor is it. A sensor like the Crank one can stop a car starting and shut it down when hot. It often doesn't leave a fault code so is invisible. When engine is hot has been mentioned. Sensor internal wiring joints open under heat and go open circuit. Or their output to ECU when hot goes erratic and you get black smoke. Engine with a crank sensor fault not showing up on not starting when cold is a Big Headache. Change this, that, other. Good Luck...
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gordonaldson - 2016-09-24 9:33 PM

 

So which sensor is it. A sensor like the Crank one can stop a car starting and shut it down when hot. It often doesn't leave a fault code so is invisible.

 

But not totally invisible!

 

If you get a scanner with 'Live Data' you should be able to watch the trace from the crank sensor whilst cranking the engine. A faulty sensor or wiring fault will instantly show up on the trace.

 

Keith.

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I am too old to help with the diagnostics but there are one or two clues that suggest set me thinking. You say it sounds like its being choked and now the diagnostics are reading OK.

 

Could it be that at high temperatures gas flow in either the inlet or the exhaust are suddenly restricted and sometimes momentarily when cornering. Sensor outputs then shut down fuel delivery but record no fault as that's what they are supposed to do.

 

Suggest check inlet from air cleaner inwards. Air cleaner break up or moving when things expand hot, are the hoses collapsing due to heat softening but recover shape during cooling. Are the engine mounts OK Perhaps the engine shifts a bit and leans on a pipe when cornering.

 

The exhaust side is harder but baffles might move when hot and block a pipe but spring n back when cool.

 

I remember spending days looking for a fuel chokage on a pre electronics diesel including stripping out the spotlessly clean fuel tank. It was a fuel flow problem. The lugard terminal on the engine stop solenoid was slack and at certain revs almost turned the engine off.

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George your not too old, I'm 65 and go back to rebuilding Morris 1000 engines and the like. Your words Choked buzzes me here. Citroen also. Citroen Picasso comes to mind. This car had been around many garages. Tried this, that, money pit but still wouldn't run. Was sold to a friend who delves deep for sweeties. Answer is, I have a picture but need to delve deep. Inlet manifold was as you said, choked, choked till only a hole in each tract a mouse had trouble getting through. So might be an answer. Obviously choking didn't come up on garages scanners.
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My mouse problems may not be known by newer members.

The van would start quite normaly, but often after 5 miles or so and/or when heavy going such as uphill it would lose power, sometimes dropping into limp mode, recovered to a French garage who suspected ERG valve and disabled it, still got problems managed to get home to UK, went to nearest Fiat (un) Professional garage, said it was the EGR solinoid, changed that, still problems, I then got the impression they where clutching at straws, so took it to Nick, he checked all the obvious and couldn't find a fault, took it to the electics guru, and still no luck, whilst he drove it no problems, but as he drove it back to his it lost power so with driver and Nick riding shotgun with diagnostics plugged in drove it till it happened again, this showed a strange air flow problem, taken apart and a mouse dropped out a bottom u bend of inlet.

The design of the inlet is a dream home for mice and easy to access via the front cross member, I now know of quite a few others who have had mice in the inlet, some might remember the member on here who had by a series of errors had a wreaked engine due to mice in the inlet.

I now have stainless mesh to stop mice getting in, and will soon be fitting same to the van that parks next to it.

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George Collings - 2016-09-26 11:00 PM

 

Considering those mice had to first tunnel through the air filter element the must be members of the NUM ( National Union of Miners.

 

PS Norman I started work in 59 the year the Mini came out. A series, 100E rebuilds , and even a decoke on a 29 oise Humber. Got out of the trade after 9 years but now play with Riley RMs

 

mice find the paper part good for making bedding and they also like to munch on the silicone.

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Thanks everyone - really, really appreciated. The van's back in the garage now, the problem happens now when the engine has just started to warm up, so I limped into town on the smallest of throttles. Parked it up overnight to let it cool and then did the last couple of miles yesterday morning.

 

I'm gonna read through all your replies properly later this evening and reply.

 

Thank you so very much.

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MikeF - 2016-09-23 12:00 AM

 

Hi Kelvin, perhaps I could make a few suggestions to help sort your van problems.

 

Check again the loom behind the nearside headlamp and the connectors to the ecu and fusebox. The multiple fault codes you had points to problems in this area. There may still be faults in the wires or connectors.

 

Check the loom and connectors to the injectors, and if possible sample the injector voltages with a diagnostic oscilloscope to ensure they are in spec.

 

The fact you have smoke/fumes in the engine compartment may be due to a leak on an injector seal or a leak on the output side of the turbo.

Check all hoses and pipes from the turbo to the intercooler and from the intercooler to the inlet manifold. Check the manifold and intercooler for cracks and splits. The running at high revs with a faulty EGR may have allowed hot exhaust gasses to damage the pipe from EGR to inlet manifold or even the inlet manifold itself. Have a good look at this area.

 

It would be worth carrying out a leak off test on the injectors and if there is any doubt get them tested by a diesel injection specialist.

Its possible a faulty sensor is effecting fuel flow, try capturing real time data (in particular fuel pressure) with the diagnostic kit and see if this gives any clues.

 

It’s worth changing the fuel filter element or even the complete housing.

 

The crankshaft position sensor sometimes plays up when hot but I would have thought it would show up on the diagnostic. It’s inexpensive but a pig to replace.

 

Don’t discount rodent damage, many automotive plastics have a bio percentage, which makes a ‘happy meal’.

 

Mike

Thanks fella - very comprehensive reply. So most of this has been worked through now and still no joy. EGR code is coming up but being blanked off that's to be expected. Live data ll looks okay for the injectors. Previously, I wriggled every flippin' wire in the engine bay with the diagnostic machine in my other hand, seeing if there was flicker of anything odd on it. Nowt. Pretty sure all the odd gremlins have been fixed by replacing the earth strap, it was a right mess as it happens.

 

On Friday the lads at the garage are borrowing a van, same age and model, to swap parts off and see if that shows up anything. It's gonna be something stupidly simple, you can pretty much guarantee it.

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George Collings - 2016-09-26 9:12 AM

 

Suggest check inlet from air cleaner inwards. Air cleaner break up or moving when things expand hot, are the hoses collapsing due to heat softening but recover shape during cooling. Are the engine mounts OK Perhaps the engine shifts a bit and leans on a pipe when cornering.

 

The exhaust side is harder but baffles might move when hot and block a pipe but spring n back when cool.

My thinking is along those lines, it drives too well when it's cold. Hence replacing the cat with a straight pipe, as that would be the obvious place for the exhaust side to go wrong. But it really does feel like it's not breathing on the intake side and hence overfuels.

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colin - 2016-09-27 6:41 PM

 

Maybe coincidence, but that's when mine played up due to mice, would drive about 5 miles then a sudden power loss.

It's not dropping into limp mode, that's for certain, it literally can only tick over, Touching the throttle doesn't make it stall. It trys to rev but chokes up with fuel (?) maybe.

 

I will mention the mice thing to them - although both them and myself have been through all the air intake side of stuff.

 

Thanks again.

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