Mark Wilkes Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Hi all. Please can anyone help me. I bought a set of shoes for the rear of my 2007 Citroen relay and when they were fitting them they said that the shoes were for the handbrake only and that the brakes were pads like the front. My question is, is this correct as I have never heard of pads and shoes on the same wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinM50 Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 google search seems to show both systems. Maybe have look and see if you can identlfy the relevant bits, though tbh if the garage told you the handbrake only works the shoes and normal braking is via pads, I'd be surprised if they've misled you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Yes, A lot of vehicles now use 'Drum in Disc' style rear brakes where the handbrake is a drum style with shoes inside the disc and pad arrangement. If you look through the wheel rim you should see the shiny(?) disc similar to the front brakes. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wilkes Posted November 22, 2019 Author Share Posted November 22, 2019 Thanks for the information Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 I can confirm that the rear wheels on citroen x250 (at least) have separate handbrake and pedal brake systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wilkes Posted November 22, 2019 Author Share Posted November 22, 2019 Thank you Spirou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Note that during normal operation the drums do nothing apart from hold you still if applied when parked, therefore they never get 'cleaned'. It was posted on here some time back about lightly applying the handbrake whilst driving forward to help remove rust and dust before a MOT, since doing this (and after Nick adjusted the handbrake) my brake test has been much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 But, be careful! The further advice from Nick was not to apply the handbrake at any speed over about 5MPH, and even then to do so slowly and lightly, keeping the handbrake release button depressed while doing so. This is, in effect, only a parking brake and not, as used to be the case, an emergency brake to be used if the footbrake fails. With hydraulic split circuit brakes now being ubiquitous, the chance of total brake failure on modern vehicle is, for all practical purposes, 0. The danger in applying the "top hat" type drum brake on a moving vehicle so equipped is that one, or both, rear wheels spontaneously lock. Gentle, and slow, are the keywords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 While being aware of the 'gentle & slow' advice I must admit that I've found ignoring it is the only way to keep the handbrake shoes clean and working effectively. I regularly pull the handbrake on hard at about 50mph on the 1/2 mile descent into the final roundabout before home. At first all the handbrake does is squeak and squeal with very little retardation but by the time I reach the roundabout it is quiet and slowing the van noticably. Anything less and the handbrake gradually loses efficiency to the point that I can't lock the rear wheels on my gravel drive (my pre-MOT test routine for handbrake efficiency on all our vehicles..). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Don't know if I can upload this illustration pdf as its 121kb but I'll try Edit - no max filesize is 100kb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 The attached drawing shows the rear brake’s main elements, and this useful French YouTube vdeo-clip covers adjustment of the ‘drum type’ parking-brake without disassembling its components. This other YouTube clip deals with changing the front-brake pads (What’s being demonstrated on the video-clips is not necessarily best practice, but they give a good idea of how the brakes are constructed and the general principles involved in maintaining them.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-11-22 10:46 AM But, be careful! The further advice from Nick was not to apply the handbrake at any speed over about 5MPH, and even then to do so slowly and lightly, keeping the handbrake release button depressed while doing so. This is, in effect, only a parking brake and not, as used to be the case, an emergency brake to be used if the footbrake fails. With hydraulic split circuit brakes now being ubiquitous, the chance of total brake failure on modern vehicle is, for all practical purposes, 0. The danger in applying the "top hat" type drum brake on a moving vehicle so equipped is that one, or both, rear wheels spontaneously lock. Gentle, and slow, are the keywords. Brian, it is a legal requirement that the handbrake acts as an emergency brake, that's why it's tested on the MOT. As for total brake failure with a modern split system, been there done that got the tee shirt. I my case it was on a 1998 Astra, the internal seals in master cylinder between the two circuits failed, complete brake failure with no leak of fluid. p.s. I should point out that it's been advised not to do this in reverse as that can cause problems, this may be what you are referring too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wilkes Posted November 22, 2019 Author Share Posted November 22, 2019 Thank you for the breakdown picture it all makes sense now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 The Ducato Owner Handbook for my Rapido motorhome advises as shown in attachment below. In an emergency, stopping (or even significantly slowing down) a 3-tonne Ducato at anything above a walking pace is just wishful thinking given how small the dinky little rear drum-brakes are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 The Ducato Owner Handbook for my Rapido motorhome advises as shown in the attachment below. In an emergency, stopping (or even significantly slowing down) a 3-tonne Ducato at anything above a walking pace is just wishful thinking given how small the dinky little rear drum-brakes are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 So I should not have been doing handbrake turns around an empty ice covered parking lot in Norway? The opportunity was just too good to miss. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 colin - 2019-11-22 11:50 AM Brian, it is a legal requirement that the handbrake acts as an emergency brake, that's why it's tested on the MOT. It's a legal requirement that it works, but on modern vehicles with split line dual hydraulic brake systems the parking brake efficiency only has to reach 16%. On vehicles with a single hydraulic system the parking brake is expected to be capable of use as an emergency brake and the minimum efficiency required is 25%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 colin - 2019-11-22 11:50 AM..................….p.s. I should point out that it's been advised not to do this in reverse as that can cause problems, this may be what you are referring too. Hi Colin. If you do a forum search with euroserv as the author and handbrake as the keyword, you'll find several posts by Nick where he repeats the warning about overdoing the handbrake method for cleaning up the rear drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 I’d be interested to know where it has been authoratively advised that applying the handbrake of a Boxer/Ducato/Relay while the vehicle is being reversed can cause problems, though I have seen it suggested that, if the handbrake’s brake shoes jam on, reversing may unjam them. This 2017 thread discussed Ducato X250 handbrake shoes https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-X250-Handbrake-shoes/47552/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-11-22 5:52 PM I’d be interested to know where it has been authoratively advised that applying the handbrake of a Boxer/Ducato/Relay while the vehicle is being reversed can cause problems, though I have seen it suggested that, if the handbrake’s brake shoes jam on, reversing may unjam them. This 2017 thread discussed Ducato X250 handbrake shoes https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-X250-Handbrake-shoes/47552/ Not got time to search it right now, and knowing search on here it may not come up, but their was someone with a problem a couple of years back, the handbrake was applied when van was going backwards and something went wrong (locked up?) p.s. the reason I remember is that I was concerned it might be a problem with me 'cleaning' drums, but Nick said he thought not and it was only a problem if going backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 Well I was close with my recollection, but not 100%. well it was 4 years ago. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Boxer-3-handbrake-shoe-binding/40348/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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