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Danger when draining down water system
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userDen
Posted: 3 November 2018 10:22 AM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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The only information I have from the police is.
He was taken into custody.
For Drink driving.
I have an incident No from them.
I have been told independently that the insurance have to pay out and can go back to the driver and seek repayment.
I know his self employed.
I wouldn’t have reported him, but he stank of beer and when he got out of his vehicle he was holding his mobile that was live ( screen lit )
I can’t say if he was on the phone at the time or within 20 seconds of the accident he made a call.
useraandy
Posted: 3 November 2018 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Derek Uzzell - 2018-11-03 9:37 AM

Do you know what the police plan to do about the van driver?

If the driver is prosecuted and found guily of drink-driving, that could further complicate the insurance issue.


For what it's worth, I was involved in an accident and had to claim for losses not covered by my own comprehensive insurance. The other driver was prosecuted for driving without due care and attention, and both the police and my solicitor told me at the time that his conviction would assist the claim.
userDen
Posted: 3 November 2018 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Hi Andy
I’m hoping this will assist my claim, but we go on holiday on the 14th.
????
userPJay
Posted: 3 November 2018 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Derek Uzzell - 2018-11-03 9:37 AM

Do you know what the police plan to do about the van driver?

If the driver is prosecuted and found guily of drink-driving, that could further complicate the insurance issue.


My thoughts also!
Technically he could be uninsured! So AXA will have pay anyway My be that is why the other driver has not reported the accident. How bad was his vehicle, I wonder?
PJay
userAdiebt
Posted: 3 November 2018 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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PJay - 2018-11-03 1:32 PM

Derek Uzzell - 2018-11-03 9:37 AM

Do you know what the police plan to do about the van driver?

If the driver is prosecuted and found guily of drink-driving, that could further complicate the insurance issue.


My thoughts also!
Technically he could be uninsured! So AXA will have pay anyway My be that is why the other driver has not reported the accident. How bad was his vehicle, I wonder?
PJay


If he’s insured then he’s insured , albeit for the damages to the third party but not to himself , also his insurer may persue him for damages paid to the third party . Let’s hope they do and financially crucify him , drink drivers deserve all the bad karma that they get !
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 3 November 2018 6:47 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 


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Den - 2018-11-03 9:06 AM...............….I spoke To AXA yesterday and the 3rd party it would seem has not reported the incident to his insurance. ……………….

This seems likely to cause complications. By not doing so, the other driver is now in breach of his insurance contract.

Did the police actually attend the scene while you were there? I gained the impression that they did.

If so, do you know if they recorded the damage, possibly with pictures?

The danger is that he may decide not to claim for the damage to his own vehicle, or to claim that you were at fault. Seems unlikely under the circumstances, especially as you have a witness, but people do strange things.

I think it may be worth you contacting the police to see what they have, and to ask whether they can release any of their records to you to assist you with your claim in view of the other driver's failure to notify his insurer.

Have you explored whether you will incur cancellation charges in respect of your proposed trip, and whether you can reclaim these under your insurance?

If your van is driveable, have you taken it to the dealer you bought it from for them to check for internal furniture damage? I think this would be wise, as well as visiting the body shop to see whether they'll need internal fixtures stripped out to be able to repair the bodywork.
userDen
Posted: 3 November 2018 9:47 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Hi Brian

His vehicle came off better than ours. Still drivable with damage to his front wing and bumper.
While my wife was on the phone to the police he very briefly gave me some details and drove off and told me to txt him my details.
The police rang within 5 minutes to say they had stopped him and taken him into Custody.
At that time the lady police women would not say if he had been taken into custody for excessive drink.
We were advised to stay put until a policeman arrived or contacted me.
The policeman whom rang a few minutes later confirmed he had been breathalyzed and arrested and we could make our way home.

I did ring Go European and spoke to Joe whom is very nice to deal with
He offered to take out any furniture and replace after the damage has been rectified.
We may go with the Cannock company.
userStuartO
Posted: 4 November 2018 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-03 6:47 PM
Den - 2018-11-03 9:06 AM...............….I spoke To AXA yesterday and the 3rd party it would seem has not reported the incident to his insurance. ……………….
This seems likely to cause complications....


I think you are being a bit pessimistic there Brian.  The other driver might be compromising his prospects of having the damage to his own car repaired by his insurer but third party liability (to Den) cannot be excluded by insurers by contractual condition.  The other driver might be consummed by his impending prosecution for DUI and care little for the minor damage to his vehicle but his insurer will have to pay up for third party liabilities eventually. 

In this case Axa seem to be dragging their heels and being unhelpful to Den (which might be a cynical cost-controlling tactic, hoping he won't claim for the cost of a loan vehicle) but Den should be able to extract reasonable compensation (including the cost of a replacement vehicle) one way or another.  It's just a pity that Axa are showing themselves to be unhelpful, for one reason or another.

There is a lesson in this for all of us; it seems that Axa may not be above sneaky practice when it comes to handling claims, to bear that in mind when you choose your insurer.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 4 November 2018 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 


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I accept all of that Stuart, but the circumstances of this accident are more complex than might be the case in a normal fender bender.

There is apparently a pending prosecution for drink driving, there is the fact that the other driver seems to have left the scene before he had provided full details, that he had not, when Dennis last enquired, notified his insurer of the accident, that there appears also to be some internal damage to the van's fixtures, and that Axa seem to be being less than pro-active on Dennis' behalf.

What I'm trying to get across to Dennis is that he would be wise to forearm himself for a bit of a fight in order to get the best settlement he can achieve.

He may be able to take his booked break in two week's time, but I honestly doubt this will be possible. At best, I suspect he may have to delay, at worst cancel and start again. I just feel that he needs to find out where he stands legally vis-a-vis all these issues.

Then he can start to make decisions on a firmer basis than seems the case at present. That is what I think I would be doing, but then I'm pre-wired to try to get ahead of the curve by shooting down all the problems I can foresee before they land! You may see pessimism in there: I just see greater peace of mind from being in a position influence events as they unfold.
userStuartO
Posted: 4 November 2018 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-04 12:00 PMI accept all of that Stuart, but the circumstances of this accident are more complex than might be the case in a normal fender bender. There is apparently a pending prosecution for drink driving, there is the fact that the other driver seems to have left the scene before he had provided full details, that he had not, when Dennis last enquired, notified his insurer of the accident, that there appears also to be some internal damage to the van's fixtures, and that Axa seem to be being less than pro-active on Dennis' behalf. What I'm trying to get across to Dennis is that he would be wise to forearm himself for a bit of a fight in order to get the best settlement he can achieve. He may be able to take his booked break in two week's time, but I honestly doubt this will be possible. At best, I suspect he may have to delay, at worst cancel and start again. I just feel that he needs to find out where he stands legally vis-a-vis all these issues. Then he can start to make decisions on a firmer basis than seems the case at present. That is what I think I would be doing, but then I'm pre-wired to try to get ahead of the curve by shooting down all the problems I can foresee before they land! You may see pessimism in there: I just see greater peace of mind from being in a position influence events as they unfold.


I still think you are being unduly pessimistic and driven unnecessarily towardsmaking a meal of things.

Den has already contacted Axa, who are also aware that the other driver is insured by them.  The other driver might still be innocent until proven guilty as far as the DUI is concerned but as far as the accident is concerned there appears to be abundent evidence of 100% fault on his part and I would suggest there is no point in getting up the police's nose by making a meal of things and asking for stuff they won't want to release - because the DUI case is in process.  The police would pass on details of the other driver's name and address and insurance company if necessary (eg if den hadn't already got them) but nothing much else.

The civil matter of damages for the accident is quite separate and even though the evidence of DUI might help to load the evidence of liability on to the other driver a little bit in this case it is not necessary to delay settlement of the civil matter in order to incorporate it.  Some insurance companies (perhaps not Axa) have a special pro-active proceedure for dealing with accidents in which their insured is liable these days, to offer to get the repair done quickly and to offer to pay things which they obviously will have to pay for if requested (such as a loan vehicle) so that someone else doesn't get involved and increase them unnecessarily.  The important thing for Den to do in the short term (if he doesn't want to lose his holiday) is to get Axa to cooperate - if necessary by invoking a claims handling agent to give them a nudge.

It may simply require nudging Axa into getting the right person in their organisation involved, so Den's idea of ringing them again is a good one - with the plan to resort to using a professional claims handler as a later resort.
userDen
Posted: 4 November 2018 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Listening to all your very helpful comments helps for me to make my mind up.
I feel somewhat aggravated that Axa are not forth coming and not at all helpful.
I thought I’d give them till Tuesday and then instigate a claims management company
I did ring my broker Scenic and they did ring Axa and that was it. Nothing gained.
I know that normally the 3rd party insurance like to take over to save costs, but in this instance they will not be saving and his side the commercial division are not being helpful.
I always feel what ever goes wrong, doesn’t matter as long as the rectification smooths over any problems and leaves you stress free
We Motorhome owners are a strange lot.
We care and mostly treat them as our babies.
I certainly do and anyone whom has been purchased any of my past MH’d would agree that I pamper them.
I never ware shoes inside the MH.
I cook outside. Wash up outside. And enjoy every second of my ownership.
Until some idiot takes this away from me.
userKeithl
Posted: 4 November 2018 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 


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Den,

If you go to Cannock Resprays why not ask them if they can do a 'temporary' repair so you can still go away in it? At the worst they can only say No.

Keith.
userDen
Posted: 4 November 2018 8:49 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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I did think we could tape up the door to body, you can put your fingers through the gap.
But the door close warning buzzer is repeatedly going off and it looks a right mess down the side.
It also caught the body with the fridge behind it.
I’m sure it’s fine, but the wife said. DO NOT TURN THE GAS ON.
I’ll contact them tomorrow and hopefully send them some pictures and arrange to see them Thursday.
userPaul-
Posted: 5 November 2018 8:08 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 


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I know this isn't going to help but. I use an independent local broker, it may cost a bit more but they have a legal team and accident management that assist when you have an accident.
I haven't had a accident (touch wood) but its reassuring to know that they'll go the extra few miles to help if I did
userDen
Posted: 5 November 2018 10:18 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Hi Paul
Scenic is part of Swinton insurance and recently they closed our local branch and they were very good with any problems.
It certainly is useful to use a local company.
It’s the first accident in a Mh and not even scratched any of my previous Mh’s Since 2002.
userDen
Posted: 6 November 2018 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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After a long conversation with AXA today it seems they have to give the 3rd party guilty driver 16 days to advise his insurance of the accident.
If he doesn’t it would seem it becomes a no blame !!
They are a differcult company to deal with.
I spoke to the police and they have all the information for his insurance to be to act and sort out the mess.
I did tell Axa Motorhome that it seemed unbelievable they do not have a specified MH repair company under there umbrella.
I have today taken mine to a local repair company whom will do the repairs and use 2 specialist companies to replace the window in the sliding door and the other one to replace the decals.
I have total faith in his ability to do a first class job.
I’ve used him before.
Hopefully Carthago will supply the decals and some interior panels quickly.
He estimates the time needed to be 40 hours. And a total respray of the one side.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 November 2018 11:48 AM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 


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Den - 2018-11-06 9:41 PM........................If he doesn’t it would seem it becomes a no blame !!
They are a differcult company to deal with.
……………………………...

Did they explain the implications of that for you, in terms of loss of no claims discount and/or premium adjustment due to a changed claims record?
userDen
Posted: 7 November 2018 5:44 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Hi Brian

My question to them was.
If the 3rd party does not notify his insurance
AXA commercial within the 16 days what happens.
She said it becomes a no fault. I am then faced with a £250 excess and increase in premiums.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 November 2018 6:45 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 


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Den - 2018-11-07 5:44 PM

Hi Brian

My question to them was.
If the 3rd party does not notify his insurance, AXA commercial, within the 16 days what happens?
She said it becomes a no fault. I am then faced with a £250 excess and increase in premiums.

It seems to me that there is ample evidence of fault, including the blood alcohol evidence the police have (albeit they probably won't release that information to you or AXA). What there is not, is an admission that the damage to your van was caused by his. Since the police did not attend the scene, your only independent corroboration for who did what leading to the accident is your independent witness.

Otherwise, it seems the other driver could deny involvement, admit to driving under the influence, and have his van repaired at his own expense without claiming on his insurance. He is not legally obliged to claim. I think you may therefore need to prove the identity of the other vehicle, and establish who was driving it, which hopefully your witness can provide.

Whose breakdown (AA; RAC etc.) service do you use? Why not give them a ring to see what they advise? To me, this is heading the wrong way, and you could end up having to decide whether to swallow the extra premium and loss of NCD, or sue the other driver privately to recover your losses. Before embarking down that street, you'd need some idea of whether he has sufficient assets, or is the proverbial "man of straw".

What you are saying just makes me uneasy, as I can't see how your insurer can reasonably declare the incident a "no blame incident" and hit you with loss of NCD and a premium hike on renewal.

AXA now know (I assume from your claim and the details provided with it) that the accident took place, what caused it, what the consequences were, and have an independent witness to that effect. I simply don't see how they can, under the circumstances, in effect deny that knowledge and declare a no blame situation where the other party is clearly at fault. But then, I'm no insurance expert!

Out of curiosity, have they sent a loss adjuster to inspect the damage to your van? I imagine they might want to when they get the full repair estimates.

I assume you have photographs of the damage to your van, inside and out? If not, make sure you have as good a photographic record as you can get. Do you know where the other driver lives? His van should still bear the evidence so, if you can do so without putting yourself at risk, see if you can get any pictures of his damage also, if you don't already have some.
userDen
Posted: 7 November 2018 7:23 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Hi Brian

I spoke to the police yesterday and the police woman I spoke to was very suprised that Axa had not been in touch with them has they have all the details they require.
She did say you couldn’t directly give me the information but would to the insurance.
I honestly believe it’s because it’s axa V axa.
I’m very prepared to use a solicitor just to prove what his done and highlight it to his customers.
His a painter and decorator.
I have a picture of his damaged van with my paint on and pictures of mine with his paint on.
A quote with pictures have been sent to axa by the repairing garage. As yet no mention has been made regarding an engineer looking at my MH.
useraandy
Posted: 8 November 2018 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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I've always understood that nobody can initiate a claim against someone else's insurance policy. You claim against the individual and he then passes it to his insurer to cover his liability. If he refuses to do so, the injured party has no route by which to engage with the insurer. If that is still the case, unless the other driver submits a claim Axa could not settle under his policy even if they wanted to, and Den's only option would seem to be to claim on his own insurance. That would then be a 'no fault' claim, in that there is no fault on the part of the holder of the policy against which it was made.

However, I am not sure I share the pessimism about subsequently recovering loss from the other driver. Even if he has no assets, we know he has third party insurance to cover any loss for which he is liable. Faced with a court order (or, hopefully, just the prospect of one) it is difficult to imagine why he would not then claim against his insurance, particularly as he will have lost any advantage he might have hoped to gain by keeping the matter from the insurer.

That said, I would agree with others who have advised seeking legal advice, at least if it reaches the stage where it is certain that the other party is not going to claim. £150 might seem a lot for a half hour chat, but it could save a lot more than that in the long run.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 November 2018 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 


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If it is £150, add that to the eventual bill, on the basis that it was necessary to take legal advice because the other driver behaved as he did. It won't cost anything to do so, and you may even get the £150 back!
userarthur49
Posted: 8 November 2018 1:35 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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I'm sorry I've not read the complete thread but a few points may be of interest

1. If you have Legal Expenses Cover on your insurance then they may pursue your claim, including any uninsured losses eg vehicle hire. (This is often an optional cover at inception/renewal for which a small additional premium is payable)

2. Subject to negligence being proved against the third party then they or their insurers are liable for damage and any uninsured losses eg vehicle hire

3. If the third party insurers deny indemnity to the third party because of a breach of the policy conditions, then recourse can be made to the MIB - see here https://www.mib.org.uk/making-a-claim/claiming-against-an-uninsured-driver/uninsured-drivers-agreements/
I'm out of touch but it used to be that AXA as the third party insurer would deal with your claim as "Insurer Concerned" and claim their outlays from the third party

Overall, I suggest you need professional advice if you don't have Legal Expenses Cover.
usercrocs
Posted: 8 November 2018 10:51 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Den, personally I would just hire a MH and claim against the other party if my own could not be repaired in time.

However, if you don’t feel confident about pursuing this claim to its fullest extent on your own, my advice would be to stop prolonging matters and consult a solicitor or claims management company tomorrow without delay. Extending the discussion here will not take you closer to a solution and time is of the essence if you wish to follow your original timetable.

Hope it works out for you.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 9 November 2018 9:08 AM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 


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crocs - 2018-11-08 10:51 PM

Den, personally I would just hire a MH and claim against the other party if my own could not be repaired in time...


I dont think Den has ever said how long his Spanish holiday was to last, but hiring a motorhome in the UK to allow that holiday to be taken would be a potentially risky business as far as claiming compensation for ‘loss of use’ is concerned.

This Financial Ombudsman Sevice webpage refers

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/loss-of-use-mv.html

userPJay
Posted: 9 November 2018 10:27 AM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Derek Uzzell - 2018-11-09 9:08 AM

crocs - 2018-11-08 10:51 PM

Den, personally I would just hire a MH and claim against the other party if my own could not be repaired in time...


I dont think Den has ever said how long his Spanish holiday was to last, but hiring a motorhome in the UK to allow that holiday to be taken would be a potentially risky business as far as claiming compensation for ‘loss of use’ is concerned.

This Financial Ombudsman Sevice webpage refers

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/loss-of-use-mv.html



Have to agree with Derek
We had problems with car hire costs, when we had our accident. The other party questioned
why we hired , when we could have got public transport home! From Doncaster to Portsmouth, and new years eve??
with all the xmas stuff an luggage involved? The court case took 3 years to resolve the issue.
The cost of a motorhome , for holiday,? I don't think that would go down well!
Could you report AXA to the insurance ombudsman, they seem to be VERY unhelpful .
PJay
userDen
Posted: 9 November 2018 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Hi
The holiday to Spain was for 2 plus weeks. ( not long, but work hinders my hols)
It would be a gamble to hire a Motorhome and reclaim the costs due to the fact the 3 rd party has still not notified his insurance, thus not excepting responsibility.
I’ve spoken today with my insurance and it’s still going through my insurance for the claim.
I pay the £250 excess and may loose my no claims bonus.
Fighting axa V axa is impossible.
Today I’m contacting the claims management company and hopefully I can relax a little knowing someone is fighting my corner.
useraandy
Posted: 9 November 2018 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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Derek Uzzell - 2018-11-09 9:08 AM

crocs - 2018-11-08 10:51 PM

Den, personally I would just hire a MH and claim against the other party if my own could not be repaired in time...


I dont think Den has ever said how long his Spanish holiday was to last, but hiring a motorhome in the UK to allow that holiday to be taken would be a potentially risky business as far as claiming compensation for ‘loss of use’ is concerned.

This Financial Ombudsman Sevice webpage refers

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/loss-of-use-mv.html




The FOS advice refers to recovery of costs incurred because an insurer was at fault, whereas what Den is looking at is claiming consequential loss from the other driver. The principles in play may, therefore, be rather different, though if I were in Den's position I would certainly seek legal advice as to the likelihood of recovery before hiring.

Now redundant in light of Den's overlapping post, but can't see a way to delete it.

Edited by aandy 2018-11-09 12:13 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 9 November 2018 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 


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Den - 2018-11-09 12:05 PM

Hi
The holiday to Spain was for 2 plus weeks. ( not long, but work hinders my hols)
It would be a gamble to hire a Motorhome and reclaim the costs due to the fact the 3 rd party has still not notified his insurance, thus not excepting responsibility.
I’ve spoken today with my insurance and it’s still going through my insurance for the claim.
I pay the £250 excess and may loose my no claims bonus.
Fighting axa V axa is impossible.
Today I’m contacting the claims management company and hopefully I can relax a little knowing someone is fighting my corner.

Dennis, do first check how the claims management company gets paid, as you will ultimately be paying that as well.
usercrocs
Posted: 9 November 2018 3:34 PM
Subject: RE: Danger when draining down water system
 
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PJay - 2018-11-09 10:27 AM

Derek Uzzell - 2018-11-09 9:08 AM

crocs - 2018-11-08 10:51 PM

Den, personally I would just hire a MH and claim against the other party if my own could not be repaired in time...


I dont think Den has ever said how long his Spanish holiday was to last, but hiring a motorhome in the UK to allow that holiday to be taken would be a potentially risky business as far as claiming compensation for ‘loss of use’ is concerned.

This Financial Ombudsman Sevice webpage refers

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/loss-of-use-mv.html



Have to agree with Derek
We had problems with car hire costs, when we had our accident. The other party questioned
why we hired , when we could have got public transport home! From Doncaster to Portsmouth, and new years eve??
with all the xmas stuff an luggage involved? The court case took 3 years to resolve the issue.
The cost of a motorhome , for holiday,? I don't think that would go down well!
Could you report AXA to the insurance ombudsman, they seem to be VERY unhelpful .
PJay


I accept that some people would not feel able, nor have the patience and persistence, to tackle this on their own. I was simply saying what I would do if that situation arose. But I have extensive knowledge of this industry and would feel confident, where others may not.

As aandy says, the FOS guidance covers a different scenario.

As den has now made the first move, hopefully all will be well.
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