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Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
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userHymer22
Posted: 28 July 2021 7:26 AM
Subject: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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Good morning to you all. We had a Hymer Nova caravan for 10 yrs which we sold 6 yrs ago. We are coming up to early retirement and the plan was always to buy a motorhome and start travelling the length and breadth of the UK and Europe. My question to you guys is it worth it ? My concern is electric vehicles !!!! Our budget is up to 60k so a big investment. The electric debate is now gathering pace so in 5 to 10 years time what will that 60k motorhome be worth ? I'm not asking for the price, I'm just saying will diesel and petrol motorhomes plummet in price as they will not be seen as green energy motors. So this is a concern for us. So now I'm thinking do we splash out on another caravan instead for a fraction of the price ? Would love to hear your comments on this subject. Cheers
usermotoringabout
Posted: 28 July 2021 9:05 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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I'm an electric car fan/nutter (we have a fleet of them where i work) but if i were you i'd stick with diesel for a motorhome. I can't see the demand for non-EV cars plummeting any time soon, especially for big boxy vehicles which typically drive long distances - such as a motorhome! With the current battery tech EVs are great for 99% of journeys but I think vans, trucks etc aren't quite ready for batteries
userpepe63
Posted: 28 July 2021 9:10 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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Morining.
A difficult one this, as there will be no "correct" answers...
Firstly you could "dip your toe" into MHing for a lot less than 60k. Although used prices have risen due to all this "staycation" lark, a decent quality, well looked after used van, which the initial owner has taken the bulk of the depreciation hit (and which has had all of the niggles corrected) could be had for a lot less.
Having said that,when it comes to motorhomes, don't get fooled by all of this Go where you like, Stop/Sleep where you like twaddle...in the UK(which is where we used our vans), it can at times be a pain in the backside to responsibly park/pitch up a MH as it is..and that's before you start to consider the barriers/charges/exclusions that are being brought into some areas..so it can at times take just as much, if not more, planning/thought as would using a caravan..?
The likes of the Britstops scheme/club can add flexibilty though (although we haven't used it for a while?).
So, if a caravan would still suit what you wish to do with it, then I'd say stick with that, then all you have to "worry" about is having a suitably "compliant" tow vehicle..

userBruceM
Posted: 28 July 2021 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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I concur with motoringabout.

Battery powered technology is not suitable yet for long distance large vans/trucks. Put simply, the battery requirement uses up too much of the payload.

The viable future electric alternative is hydrogen fuel cell for all the reasons that have no doubt been debated to death. China is already transitioning away from battery to fuel cell, first for trucks and then in about 10 years time, cars.

My personal view is that unless there’s a dramatic change in battery technology (and it could happen), then batteries are an interim step so that automotive manufacturers have something to sell to consumers over the next 10 years after which hydrogen will become the norm no doubt with engines predominately manufactured in China or South Korea. It’s worth note that Ineos’s Landrover lookalike, the Grenadier, will be available in petrol, diesel and hydrogen fuel cell versions – ie they’re effectively leapfrogging the currently UK promoted technology.

There will still be plenty of diesel around for the next 20 years so if you buy a motorhome now you should get at least 20 years good use of it. If you’re particularly concerned about residual value then maybe buy an older vehicle, maybe a 15 year old A Class. Just as good as a new vehicle, often less to go wrong, lower cost to buy and you’ll not worry about the inevitable odd scratch.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 28 July 2021 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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This may be of interest

https://www.buerstner.com/uk/buerstner-world/neuigkeiten/eliseo-cng/

(MMM Magazine has reported that the Burstner Elizeo CNG model will be introduced for the 2022 season.)
usercolin
Posted: 28 July 2021 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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The future of motive power is a huge subject and I wouldn't like to predict what will be the prime system used in motorhomes in 10 or 20 years time.
That said, we are presently looking at getting a car and motorhome(in no big rush), if a suitable electric car comes on the market in the next year I would have no hesitation buying one, but for a motorhome it will be a deisel, there is nothing on the market suitable for the way we tour, and nothing I've seen showing this to change imminently, if it is devalued in 10 years time due to being the 'wrong' motive power, then so be it.
userweldted
Posted: 28 July 2021 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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If motorhome makers want to stay in business they are going to have to come up with something to cover this. Hopefully someone will come up with a power unit than can fit where the current engine is and put the gas tanks in the ladder frame of the chassis. I am surprised that more has not been made of lpg powered units I may be wrong but I thought they were less harmful to the environment. But the petrol stations selling lpg seem to be on the decline. Our local calor bottling plant stopped selling lpg for our tank three years ago. The nearest one is around 20 miles away in the wrong direction for most of our journeys.
userHans
Posted: 28 July 2021 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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Nice comment. But from now on it will be go on faster. that you even can imagine. Or we be all under Water.
usermalc d
Posted: 28 July 2021 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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Hans - 2021-07-28 8:10 PM

Nice comment. But from now on it will be go on faster. that you even can imagine. Or we be all under Water.

On the subject of " under water " - I do wonder how people living in all the current flooded areas of Europe are managing to charge their all-electric cars ?

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 29 July 2021 8:38 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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malc d - 2021-07-28 8:38 PM
Hans - 2021-07-28 8:10 PM
Nice comment. But from now on it will be go on faster. that you even can imagine. Or we be all under Water.

On the subject of " under water " - I do wonder how people living in all the current flooded areas of Europe are managing to charge their all-electric cars ?

Probably with the same ease as those with conventionally fuelled cars are managing to re-fuel them. Without electricity, nothing works!
usermalc d
Posted: 29 July 2021 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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Brian Kirby - 2021-07-29 8:38 AM

malc d - 2021-07-28 8:38 PM
Hans - 2021-07-28 8:10 PM
Nice comment. But from now on it will be go on faster. that you even can imagine. Or we be all under Water.

On the subject of " under water " - I do wonder how people living in all the current flooded areas of Europe are managing to charge their all-electric cars ?

Probably with the same ease as those with conventionally fuelled cars are managing to re-fuel them. Without electricity, nothing works!

I assume anyone with a with non-electric car, which has run out of fuel, will top up with petrol/ diesel from a can - obtained from outside the flooded area.

They're going to need a very long cable to do the same for an all-electric car.



Edited by malc d 2021-07-29 10:07 AM
userAED
Posted: 29 July 2021 10:19 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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Weldted makes a good point, that I have been wondering about recently.
A few years ago my neighbour gave me a lift in a large Landrover which ran on petrol and Lpg. He demonstrated the changeover whilst on the move and it was seamless. I was amazed.With the cost at half price and we were told with far less emissions if the mainstream manufacturers had taken it up we would not be in the situation that we are now ?
Alan
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 29 July 2021 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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Quite a few mainstream vehicle manufacturers used to market bi-fuel (LPG/petrol) cars and Dacia still does.

https://www.dacia.co.uk/dacia-lpg.html

Conversions (some good, some definitely not) of petrol-fuelled vehicles also used to be popular (taxis, RVs with big motors) but the move to electricity has killed that. It's possible to feed LPG into a diesel motor, but not (I believe) to run the motor solely on LPG.
usercolin
Posted: 29 July 2021 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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AED - 2021-07-29 10:19 AM

Weldted makes a good point, that I have been wondering about recently.
A few years ago my neighbour gave me a lift in a large Landrover which ran on petrol and Lpg. He demonstrated the changeover whilst on the move and it was seamless. I was amazed.With the cost at half price and we were told with far less emissions if the mainstream manufacturers had taken it up we would not be in the situation that we are now ?
Alan

A lot of the cost differance is down to tax.
Now the oil companies have admitted defeat in their attempts to keep ICE's we now use 'well to wheel' polution figures, and the benefits of LPG are marginal.
userHymer22
Posted: 30 July 2021 7:19 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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Thank you for all your replies.
userPCC
Posted: 30 July 2021 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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JCB and presumably others are now adapting diesel engines to run on hydrogen. They see batteries as having too much of an impact on weight for commercial vehicles and fuel cells as being too complicated and too expensive. They expect their adapted hydrogen powered diesel engines to be comparable in cost to a traditional engine.

A number of experts think that governments have been in thrall to Elon Musk and have rushed into policies that will turn out to be unsustainable. Meanwhile he is blasting into space which is hardly environmentally friendly.

I think we are in a Betamax/VHS/laserdisk situation and there will be twists and turns before a winner, or more likely a combination of winners, is found. Perhaps electric for light vehicles moving to hydrogen in some form for heavier vehicles.

It looks like efforts should perhaps be focused more on building a hydrogen infrastructure.

Diesel will be around for a while yet but is likely to be more restricted in where it can be used. In some ways this means that a caravan would be more practical for a lot of people with an option to update the tow car as technoloy progresses. Cars tend to have a much shorter expected life than motorhomes.

Peter
userBruceM
Posted: 30 July 2021 9:52 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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PCC - 2021-07-30 8:53 AM

JCB and presumably others are now adapting diesel engines to run on hydrogen.

Well that’s a fascinating development I was unaware of. A quick online search elucidated this quote

“ULEMCo has converted many vehicles from diesel to hydrogen dual-fuel, and these are in current service in the UK. The FH16 will be the first all-hydrogen example and with 300hp and 17kg of hydrogen on board, it will have a range of almost 300km.”

Potentially, if the process is viable, there may in the future be an aftermarket conversion service converting diesel engines to hydrogen in much the same way as it used to be possible to have petrol engines converted to LPG. There may be long term life in our ‘diesel’ engines yet!
usercolin
Posted: 30 July 2021 11:28 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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PCC - 2021-07-30 8:53 AM

JCB and presumably others are now adapting diesel engines to run on hydrogen. They see batteries as having too much of an impact on weight for commercial vehicles and fuel cells as being too complicated and too expensive. They expect their adapted hydrogen powered diesel engines to be comparable in cost to a traditional engine.

A number of experts think that governments have been in thrall to Elon Musk and have rushed into policies that will turn out to be unsustainable. Meanwhile he is blasting into space which is hardly environmentally friendly.

I think we are in a Betamax/VHS/laserdisk situation and there will be twists and turns before a winner, or more likely a combination of winners, is found. Perhaps electric for light vehicles moving to hydrogen in some form for heavier vehicles.

It looks like efforts should perhaps be focused more on building a hydrogen infrastructure.

Diesel will be around for a while yet but is likely to be more restricted in where it can be used. In some ways this means that a caravan would be more practical for a lot of people with an option to update the tow car as technoloy progresses. Cars tend to have a much shorter expected life than motorhomes.

Peter

Hydrogen, the last gasp of the oil companies, at the moment most of it is from oil production. Will it be more environmentally friendly in future? Maybe, but would require a huge increase in renewable energy production, something that (with correct planning) is not needed for BEV's, or at least nowhere near as much.
userthebishbus
Posted: 30 July 2021 1:54 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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May seem a step too far at he moment, but EVENTUALLY, using virtually unlimited Hydrogen from the sea. extracted using solar power, could be a solution to rising sea levels also. ?
Brian B.
userBruceM
Posted: 1 August 2021 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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colin - 2021-07-30 11:28 AM

Hydrogen, the last gasp of the oil companies, at the moment most of it is from oil production. Will it be more environmentally friendly in future? Maybe, but would require a huge increase in renewable energy production, something that (with correct planning) is not needed for BEV's, or at least nowhere near as much.

To help put your mind at rest, I read today that the Sizewell C nuclear station is going to start producing Hydrogen.
usercolin
Posted: 1 August 2021 2:58 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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BruceM - 2021-08-01 1:45 PM

colin - 2021-07-30 11:28 AM

Hydrogen, the last gasp of the oil companies, at the moment most of it is from oil production. Will it be more environmentally friendly in future? Maybe, but would require a huge increase in renewable energy production, something that (with correct planning) is not needed for BEV's, or at least nowhere near as much.

To help put your mind at rest, I read today that the Sizewell C nuclear station is going to start producing Hydrogen.

The plans for Sizewell could power 2.5% of UK cars in around 10 years time, it is a scheme to try and deflect the arguments about Sizewell C not being very 'green'. As nuclear is at best going to be a 'base line' power supply for when 'green' energy schemes are giving low output it makes you wonder just when it will have the capacity.
userColinM50
Posted: 2 August 2021 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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Whilst I would welcome the introduction of electric motorhomes I fear the infrastructure will take many years to catch up. Those of you old enough will remember calling camp sites and asking IF they had electric hook up and even today some sites, esp C/L's are without hook up or even just a 6amp connection, so how many years will it be before the ability to charge becomes realistic. Add to that the power demand on campsites, they'll have to install massive cables to supply everybody.

A typical Tesla type fast charger draws 50-100Kw, so taking a site of 50 vehicle, that would put a tremendous strain on the camp sites infrastructure. How many would make the investment?
userwitzend
Posted: 2 August 2021 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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Hymer22 - 2021-07-30 7:19 AM

Thank you for all your replies.

Another thing to consider is how much the Anti Motor Home feelings will Proceed to spread across Europe in the next few years
usercolin
Posted: 2 August 2021 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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ColinM50 - 2021-08-02 9:47 AM

Whilst I would welcome the introduction of electric motorhomes I fear the infrastructure will take many years to catch up. Those of you old enough will remember calling camp sites and asking IF they had electric hook up and even today some sites, esp C/L's are without hook up or even just a 6amp connection, so how many years will it be before the ability to charge becomes realistic. Add to that the power demand on campsites, they'll have to install massive cables to supply everybody.

A typical Tesla type fast charger draws 50-100Kw, so taking a site of 50 vehicle, that would put a tremendous strain on the camp sites infrastructure. How many would make the investment?

As I've posted before, there doesn't appear to be any viable BEV motorhome at present, that aside a standard 16amp supply may well be enough much of the time, I know quite a few caravaners who have gone to PHEV's, they drive long distance on ICE, but when on site and trundling around they charge up from the standard 16amp supply, this is because for 'local' trips out the PHEV will only part discharge.
Will certainly be a challenge for touring, so a hydrogen or PHEV using hydrogen might be the answer.
As for Tesla, a model 3 will take on around 15 miles range for every hour on a 16amp supply.
usermalc d
Posted: 2 August 2021 12:58 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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ColinM50 - 2021-08-02 9:47 AM

Whilst I would welcome the introduction of electric motorhomes I fear the infrastructure will take many years to catch up. Those of you old enough will remember calling camp sites and asking IF they had electric hook up and even today some sites, esp C/L's are without hook up or even just a 6amp connection, so how many years will it be before the ability to charge becomes realistic. Add to that the power demand on campsites, they'll have to install massive cables to supply everybody.

A typical Tesla type fast charger draws 50-100Kw, so taking a site of 50 vehicle, that would put a tremendous strain on the camp sites infrastructure. How many would make the investment?

Seems unlikely to me that ANY campsites will set up charging points for vehicles on each pitch. Why would they ?

They don't supply fuel for vehicles on site now - so I can't imagine they would have any incentive to do so in future.

Possibly some may install one or two charging points as an extra ' feature ' to attract visitors.

usermalc d
Posted: 2 August 2021 1:02 PM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 
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witzend - 2021-08-02 11:16 AM

Another thing to consider is how much the Anti Motor Home feelings will Proceed to spread across Europe in the next few years

I think that all depends on where they expect to be allowed to park.

userwitzend
Posted: 3 August 2021 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: Diesel Motorhome Is it worth it ? Electric debate !!!
 


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malc d - 2021-08-02 1:02 PM

I think that all depends on where they expect to be allowed to park.


Overnite is easy its daytime visiting thats the problem after the media reports everyone is sure we are responsible for all the rubbish thats left around
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