david lloyd Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 The experience so far with our Eldiss Manet (CV20) is been very good apart from the use of LPG. I had thought if we were going to have problems it might well be to do with the 12v but a week on a Temporary Holiday Site with some fine weather (but by no means high summer) we managed very well without hookup. It is equipped with twin 120ah leisure batteries and a solar panel - I also changed the PWM controller supplied with a 20 amp Epever MPPT controller. Even the 12v fridge performed well and didn’t deplete the batteries over the week although we did go out most days in the van. No, it turned out our problems were to be with the new Truma Heat Duo gas/electric space and water heaters. This was the first time using them on gas and as the first few nights turned out to be below freezing temperatures we needed it to be good. It certainly performs well but I was amazed to find the LPG gauge on red on day three. We started with a full tank of gas (20ltr) and I had thought this would get us through one week, based on our experience while locked down in France in December 2020 where we were using an average of 2 ltr a day for the heating, fridge and cooking on our Autosleeper Bourton. Although I know these gauges are notoriously inaccurate I wasn’t sure how inaccurate as we have not had this Manet very long so on day four we set out to fill up with gas at nearby Keighley. No joy there so we ventured further afield to Bradford then Pudsey where a total of six outlets we visited were out of stock. Thought I would start calling the outlets before trying them. The next one was out of stock but the one after that had gas - so we set off across country to Burnley before returning to Skipton after the four hour excursion. The tank took 12ltr so certainly hadn’t been near empty but astonishingly, we had used 4ltr a day just on cooking and heating as the fridge is 12v. It’s obvious to me now that the fuel protests recently may have been the cause of the lack of readily available supplies but it highlights a significant issue if gas isn’t available - especially as more outlets stop supplying it. Further to that I am concerned about the sheer amount of gas we would need to keep us going through winter as we camp all year and that is where I reached the point of thinking: “Would it be worth thinking about replacing the Truma gas/electric heater with a suitable diesel heater?” For this 6m PVC what would be an appropriate diesel heater to consider? Are some quieter than others? Are some more efficient in fuel used and heat output? Would it be advisable to replace the Truma setup altogether or install a diesel heater alongside the Truma? Any/all advice, comments and previous experiences welcomed. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 Did you have the system on 'hot water' for most of the time? We've found the hot water option on our Truma Combi to burn a lot of gas, so now we only use it if wanting to use shower, any dishwashing etc, will use residual hot water or boil a kettle. p.s. As for noise on diesel heaters, I've seen online discussions which say fitting an optional 'silencer' make them much quieter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 We've had Eberspacher heaters in two vans and they both worked well. Noise was not an issue for us but I would not want to be camped too close next door as from outside the exhaust was like a jet engine running! The most common problem for many is insufficient 12v battery power to fire it up as it takes a huge current to do so, especially a few times at night when there is no solar to top up the batteries. With two nearly new leisure batteries you should be OK - but no guarantees! My inclination would be to add it as a backup and retain the flexibility of choice. I believe this has been much talked about on the forum over the years and a search might bring up useful info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted April 16, 2022 Author Share Posted April 16, 2022 colin - 2022-04-16 4:26 PM Did you have the system on 'hot water' for most of the time? We've found the hot water option on our Truma Combi to burn a lot of gas, so now we only use it if wanting to use shower, any dishwashing etc, will use residual hot water or boil a kettle. p.s. As for noise on diesel heaters, I've seen online discussions which say fitting an optional 'silencer' make them much quieter. Hi Colin - o the water was used just as needed but the main difference for me is that I have never had any experience of this new Truma Heat Duo system - wondering how others with the same heater are getting on? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted April 16, 2022 Author Share Posted April 16, 2022 Tracker - 2022-04-16 4:26 PM We've had Eberspacher heaters in two vans and they both worked well. Noise was not an issue for us but I would not want to be camped too close next door as from outside the exhaust was like a jet engine running! The most common problem for many is insufficient 12v battery power to fire it up as it takes a huge current to do so, especially a few times at night when there is no solar to top up the batteries. With two nearly new leisure batteries you should be OK - but no guarantees! My inclination would be to add it as a backup and retain the flexibility of choice. I believe this has been much talked about on the forum over the years and a search might bring up useful info. Hi Tracker - yes we once had an early type Eberspacher on an Autotrail and can testify that while staying over night at Elvington air show it seemed, on start up at least, to be louder than the preserved Victor Nuclear Bomber! But some commentators say the Webasto range air fairly quiet and also easy to install say in the engine bay? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 Truma do a diesel version of their Combi but it is a high output model and seems expensive , But may be worth checking out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldi Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 I have had the eberspacher in two vehicles and they are noisy and use a lot of electricity but that was 20 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 Webasto runs at about the same noise levels as a truma combi. You can smell it from outside depending on wind/distance from exhausf but nothing too problematic. Needless to say I'd never go back to gas heaters after experiencing the freedom diesel gives you on a longer trip abroad. No looking for refills in some industrial estate completely out of your way then realizing they have every imaginable adapter except the one you need.. And it's always on a weekend when everything but gas stations is closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simian Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 A second source of fuel, primarily for space heating is looking more and more like it's going to have to be a standard fitment these days for many of us.. Finding LPG supplies for refillable bottles are currently problematical and looking like they'll be even more so in the future. I know of one or two m/homers that have gone for all electric systems utilising LifePO4 battery systems, large solar panel arrays, and B2B charging, even so winter space heating uses up a lot of energy, so they have fairly rigid travel regimes which usually means moving on after 2 or 3 days to recoup battery Amps via B2B charging, Other all-electric devotees have diesel space heaters as a standby/supplement, they've gone for Chinese made units based on the ubiquitous Webasto and Eberspachers. At an eighth of the price of the German equivalents, its generally reckoned that the Chinese option makes a lot of sense, almost a disposable item! Install DIY, you'll be an expert after 2 or 3 replacements should they be required! Actually buyers generally seem very pleased with the Chinese copies. As said diesel heaters have a few downsides ie take a fair bit of power at ignition start up, and the running fan consumes an Amp or so, and produce enough noise to irritate some bods. Finding a space for a 10 or 15 litre diesel tank or tapping the vehicle fuel tank could also pose problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted April 16, 2022 Author Share Posted April 16, 2022 simian - 2022-04-16 7:13 PM A second source of fuel, primarily for space heating is looking more and more like it's going to have to be a standard fitment these days for many of us.. Finding LPG supplies for refillable bottles are currently problematical and looking like they'll be even more so in the future. I know of one or two m/homers that have gone for all electric systems utilising LifePO4 battery systems, large solar panel arrays, and B2B charging, even so winter space heating uses up a lot of energy, so they have fairly rigid travel regimes which usually means moving on after 2 or 3 days to recoup battery Amps via B2B charging, Other all-electric devotees have diesel space heaters as a standby/supplement, they've gone for Chinese made units based on the ubiquitous Webasto and Eberspachers. At an eighth of the price of the German equivalents, its generally reckoned that the Chinese option makes a lot of sense, almost a disposable item! Install DIY, you'll be an expert after 2 or 3 replacements should they be required! Actually buyers generally seem very pleased with the Chinese copies. As said diesel heaters have a few downsides ie take a fair bit of power at ignition start up, and the running fan consumes an Amp or so, and produce enough noise to irritate some bods. Finding a space for a 10 or 15 litre diesel tank or tapping the vehicle fuel tank could also pose problems. Yes I’ve read a few posts about the Chinese copies of the Webasto - many saying that their reliability has improved greatly in recent years. Our Bourton was equipped with twin lithium batteries and all the associated charging that went with it - brilliant for that enforced stay on a quayside in France as the batts could be recharged at 30 amp per hour just ticking over. Think the power required for diesel heating is something to be considered but, of course, there is already a considerable drain on 12v with the Truma Combi system or our Truma Heat Duo so at the moment it’s not an issue that would deter me from installing a diesel heater. Choosing the right one is another matter. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 You are talking bull s**t about diesel heating Sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted April 16, 2022 Author Share Posted April 16, 2022 Hans - 2022-04-16 8:35 PM You are talking bull s**t about diesel heating Sir. And your evidence for this is…..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simian Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 I'd definitely go for a heater that ran on Bull S**t. I could certainly provide it with plenty of fuel :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 A small but pertinent observation - David's Elddis CV20 motorhome DOES NOT HAVE a Truma heating system. A CV20's heating system is based on Whale equipment as mentioned in the final paragraph on this link. https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/reviews/motorhomes/details/motorhome-review-elddis-autoquest-cv20-campervan/1029964 I'm think a 2020 CV20 will have the system described here https://whalepumps.com/rv/siteFiles/resources/docs/resource-library/CBEEldissQuickGuideps_cmcc_181.298_v1_0616_web.pdf with separate gas/230V space and water heaters. The system is operated via a Whale "Duo Control" panel, which may be where David has got his "Heat Duo" name from. Whale markets several products for space or water heating https://www.whalepumps.com/rv/product-application.aspx?Category_ID=10003&FriendlyID=Space-Heating https://www.whalepumps.com/rv/product-application.aspx?Category_ID=10002&FriendlyID=Water-Heating Current CV20 models apparently have a "CompleteHeat" system using Whale units https://elddis.co.uk/models/autoquest-cv20 CompleteHeat Whale 4.7 kW Dual-fuel space-saving heating - fast, powerful and efficient, runs on gas and/or electric with quiet night-time setting - and ducted heating throughout including bathrooms NEW Improved Whale Heat Control panel with... - Modern display with capacitive touch operation - Precise temperature control for user comfort - Standby indication – Gas & Electric (Blue Standby – Orange on) - Water Temperature Selection (Frost, Eco & High) - Water temperature heat up status - Auto dim function - AC current limit selection - Proximity sensor (lights up before customer touches panel) - Single button reset at panel but Whale markets nothing equivalent to Truma's "Combi" combined space/water heating appliances. Rather than consider retrofitting a diesel-fuelled heater, it would be sensible for David to explore why the Whale system seems to be using an amount of gas that he considers unusually high. Given that a CV20 is a 6-metre-long panel-van conversion, one might think that any gas-fuelled heating system should not get through a lot of gas keeping the vehicle's interior warm. Perhaps there's an external gas leak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted April 17, 2022 Author Share Posted April 17, 2022 Thank you again for clarifying that Derek - you are, as usual, absolutely right about it being a Whale system and which is why I am not so familiar with it or quite how much fuel it uses. My apologies the misleading description. The system operates really well, is quiet and heats up really quickly on gas but, much like the Truma Combi, can be a little slow on 240v. So my concerns centre around the volume if gas it used on heating and the likelihood that LPG will inevitably become more difficult to source - particularly if it’s every four or five days in winter. In this respect diesel would appear to give more peace of mind - it’s a bit like the issue of ‘range anxiety’ around electric cars at the moment and our experience last week certainly introduced an element of stress that we are trying to escape from. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 There are a few online criticisms of the Whale system - but these are generally from caravanners who stay off-site and run the system from gas when they are used to being on-site and using a 230V EHU. The complaints are about noise and/or the air-heating appliance's demand on the caravan's leisure battery - but I can't find any moans about excessive gas usage. A 13kg propane gas bottle holds about 22 litres - that's more than a 20 litres-capacity fixed gas tank can contain. When some UK motorhome builders began to fit as standard small fixed gas tanks (presumably to save interior space and avoid having a gas locker) it could not be anticipated that LPG would become as hard to find in the UK as it seems to be at the moment. If you wanted to heat air AND water via diesel, I think you'd need to opt for a Truma Combi-D (for which a diesel/230V variant is available) but it would be a hellish expensive exercise and installation would take up a lot of space inside a CV20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted April 17, 2022 Author Share Posted April 17, 2022 Yes that’s true Derek. Not wanting to lose any more interior space (one of the very useful aspects of the Whale underslung system) I had thought more along the lines of the Propex/Webasto/Eberspacher types of heater - even if it were only for the space heating and use the kettle for washing etc or the Whale water heater for showers. Our only other option is to keep tight control of the heating when off hookup and - maybe use more CL/CS sites in winter - and worry about the long term future of gas supplies if and when it happens. You never know, we may be into an all electric (habitation area and propulsion) camper by then! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 There are three drawbacks with any extra heating, size, weight and cost. Would a small portable gas fired catalytic heater be an option as a backup? Cost is reasonable and it has it's own gas bottle but storing it and using it in a small van could well be issues? Another alternative maybe a - dare I say it - portable generator? Extra blankets and warmer clothing are no cost options! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted April 17, 2022 Author Share Posted April 17, 2022 Ah yes, the nostalgic memories of Dad’s old army greatcoat on the bed and those lovely tree fern patterns of ice on the inside of the windows in the morning. Just teasing Tracker - it wouldn’t get as bad as the ‘good old days’ but you’re right, didn’t want to use up any more space for auxiliary heaters and I think the logical way forward would not be to add a diesel heater but to replace the Whale system with one. I’m not sure but expect we will give it more time. See how the summer goes and, as I say, perhaps use more smal 5 van sites in winter with EHU. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simian Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 Small catalytic heaters, unfortunately equals large condensation problems, the reason they lost favour years ago plus the preferred requirement for oxygen depletion sensing makes them seem a little scary to some ! Room sealed heat exchanger systems have got to be the most sensible choice for gas and diesel I would have thought. I understand Whale heaters took over Propex a while back, as far as I can ascertain they've incorporated some of the components of Propex origin into the Whale current range. Beware the 'hybrids' that have utilised the aluminium cast alloy tanks, I've previously posted on the negatives aspects of these tanks, porosity, corrosion, unsavoury deposits. Stainless steel tank models are the preferred option IMO. Not personally a proponent of combined water and space heating with dual gas/electric operation, when one component goes on the blink, it often seems to affect the entire setup. Is it really necessary to have electric/gas space heating combined with gas/elect. water heating. What's wrong with a £20 electric fan heater? For a simple basic setup I don't think a Truma 10L Gas/Electric Stainless water boiler with s/steel tank, with seperate standalone gas space heater of some description eg the ubiquitous Truma 3kW or 5kW room sealed convection type, silent unless using the forced air elect. fan. And if wall space isn't available then roomed sealed Propex gas fan heaters or the Truma equivalent, albeit with a degree of noise. If gas supplies are a concern then resorting to a standby diesel fan heater would seem ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 A basic Webasto single-outlet 2KW Air Top 2000 kit can be obtained for around £1000, on top of which will be the cost of installation if DIYing is not involved. https://www.butlertechnik.com/webasto-airtop-2000-stc-motorhome-standard-kit-2-outlet-p63?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9_bw8ZGb9wIVDOztCh2nwQl-EAAYAiAAEgKMcvD_BwE It's quite common for trucks to have the diesel-fuelled heater mounted under a cab seat, and it might be practicable to do this with a Boxer/Ducato/Relay and not lose interior space. It needs to be accepted that UK-built panel-van conversions are designed to be '3 Season' vehicles and - if regularly 'wild camping' in really cold winter weather for longish periods is planned - they won't be the right choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simian Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 The Propex X1600 and X2000 were produced for the trucking fraternity (not initially for M/homes), as economic alternatives to the expensive diesel Ebers and Webastos. Fit almost anywhere in the cab, find space for a CG 907 cylinder, attach and away you go. The Chinese heaters I see, show fitment of their d/heaters just about anywhere, including car boot, footwell etc. 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Very inexpensive diesel-fuelled air heater kits are available. This example even includes a 10-litre fuel container that might simplify installation. https://www.vevor.co.uk/diesel-heater-c_10321/12v-2kw-diesel-air-heater-10l-tank-motorhomes-for-car-caravan-trucks-suv-bus-p_010774880260?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImaT998-d9wIV_4FQBh37Cwf3EAQYAiABEgLyfPD_BwE However, it's worth GOOGLEing on "Vevor heater problems" and this Facebook group might make one think twice. https://en-gb.facebook.com/groups/141862987627153/about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 Would the fitting of either a larger capacity gas tank or adding a second gas tank be a practical and cost effective solution to extend off grid use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 Elddis states that a current CV20 model (like David's) has a 25litre LPG tank as standard, and this probably translates to an 80% fill of 20 litres (which is what David mentioned in his original posting). When UK motorhome manufacturers fit an underfloor cylindrical LPG tank, 25 litres is normally quoted as that tank's capacity. This advert https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/leisure-gas-tank-boxer-ducato-relay-2006-2020/ shows cylindrical LPG tank sizes of 16, 20, 25 or 30 litres: all four have the same 200mm diameter with their lengths being respectively 585mm, 721mm, 890mm or 1070mm. On that basis it MIGHT be practicable to replace a CV20's 25litre LPG tank with a 30litre one, but (at 80% fill) there'd only be a capacity gain of 4 litres. Also shown on the advert is a 55litre toroidal LPG tank that (I assume) would fit in the space where the vehicle's spare-wheel goes. This would provide a 44 litres capacity at 80% fill, but the tank alone costs £410 (plus the installation costs), there'd be no spare wheel and - as David's motorhome is 2020 vintage - the Elddis warranty could be affected. I doubt that there'd be room under the chassis of a 5.99m-long CV20 to fit a supplementary LPG tank, particularly as the gas-fuelled heating appliances are already located there, and installing another tank (or bottle) inside the motorhome and plumbing into the present system has got to be a non-starter. Probably the best realistic bet would be to accept the size limitation of the present LPG tank; keep the Whale LPG-fuelled heating system and (as has been discussed above) fit a small diesel-fuelled unit inside the motorhome and use this for air-heating when no 230V mains power is available. That should significantly extend the interval between refills of the LPG tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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