Diesel vehicles banned ?

[Malo37]

There seems to be a growing and probably unstoppable momentum around banning or charging diesel vehicles for entry into cities. This will no doubt be followed by the Government progressively increasing taxes on diesel vehicles, perhaps by steadily increasing tax on diesel fuel.

Seems like the motorhome brigade is going to be priced off the road and maybe even banned in some locations.

Is to time to sell up and find an alternative hobby ?

[StuartO]

I think this thread would be better in Chatterbox because it is esentially a political issue; our Government is swinging towards discouraging diesels, having encouraged them only a few years ago - and as the OP says, owners of diesel MHs face a possibility of being run off the road because the discouraging measures aimed at diesel cars and lorries will swoop them up and maybe force early scrapping.

 

There is no specific threat yet, excepot that older diesel MHs cannot meet the latest emmissions expectations and so are banned from some cities, for example recently Paris, Grenoble and one other I can't remember.  Older MHs have effectively been banned from London's LEZ for some years (because of the punitive £200 per day charge) and mine fell victim to this not long after it was new.

 

MHs mostly get driven relatively little (compared with vans and lorries) and it's not really credible that they contribute much to pollution, even the old ones, because of this.  The biggest cause of pollution is arguably the traffic congestion in cities, because it causes vehicles (even low emission vehicles) to spend far more time on journies than they otherwise would.

 

But governments don't give MHs much thought and they get bundled into whatever general provisions are made.  Governments also take the opportunity to impose financial charges rather than ban the vehicles from cities or solve the traffic problems.

 

What the future holds for MHs in relation to pollution measures is uncertain except that more cities are likely to impose bans or charges which will affect MHs, but fortunately most motorhomers don't really want to go into cities.

 

[paulmold]

There is a petition against discrimination of diesel cars. This just doesn't affect the driving into cities as proposed but the addition of tax on diesel fuel. After all the government encouraged us to buy diesel vehicles as we would take less oil from the ground and oil supplies would last longer. Some reports suggest diesel is no more harmful than petrol, it depends which report you believe and who pays for the report. Any further tax either on fuel or road tax would have a huge effect on the leisure industry as a whole, as owners may be encouraged to drive less distances and also employment affected from builders of motorhomes and caravans through the sales industry to the caravan park employees etc. Motorhomes generally cover much less distances than cars and therefore last a lot longer. Any attempt to bring in a scrappage scheme for diesel vehicles would have a much greater impact on motorhome owners than car owners. Perhaps it would be nice if MMM were to campaign for us as well as the major clubs.

 

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/182686

[AliB]

Is nobody on here bothered about the levels of pollution and premature deaths caused by vehicle emissions?

Seems like everyone is more concerned about the cost to them to drive in cities. Surely the sensible thing to do is leave the motorhome on the outskirts and use public transport if you must visit the centre.

[Bop]

AliB - 2017-04-06 12:48 PM

 

Is nobody on here bothered about the levels of pollution and premature deaths caused by vehicle emissions?

Seems like everyone is more concerned about the cost to them to drive in cities. Surely the sensible thing to do is leave the motorhome on the outskirts and use public transport if you must visit the centre.

 

I think the bit in your last sentence is what we'll all do when practicable.

 

That being said, I've just Google'd 'smoking related deaths in the UK for 2016' and it appears that 19% of the adult population still smoke while the annual death statistics stand at 13,000 per year (or twice that of suspected diesel-related deaths).

 

 

[Muswell]

Yes but you can choose whether or not to smoke, you can't chose whether or not to breathe.....or not for long :-D

[Bop]

Muswell - 2017-04-06 1:13 PM

 

Yes but you can choose whether or not to smoke, you can't chose whether or not to breathe.....or not for long :-D

 

A fair point M B-)

 

Mrs Bop and I chose to live in a small village with its logistic, employment and investment limitations but we have good quality air.

 

Choices, choices eh :-D

[Mike88]

I read somewhere that the worst polluters are log burning fires which seem to be fashionable at the moment.

[paulmold]

This is an interesting read if you want to know what causes the worst pollution..

 

 

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-the-15-biggest-ships-in-the-world-produce-more-pollution-than-all-the-cars

[keninpalamos]

paulmold - 2017-04-06 2:36 PM

 

This is an interesting read if you want to know what causes the worst pollution..

 

 

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-the-15-biggest-ships-in-the-world-produce-more-pollution-than-all-the-cars

Thats a good point Paul. When the cruise ships dock in Palamos just up from Barcelona there is a considerable change in air quality as the engines are kept running and the black cloud that can hang across the town as they depart has to be seen. It's awful. Most ports around the world do not have the right equipment to supply ships with electricity while docked. Marseilles is dreadful. Even the local fishing boats around Spain will pollute more in one trip than most motorhomes would do in their lifetime. So why is all this legislation aimed at cars PLG HGV PSV? Because it's easy and a good way of making money and who's going to complain about a cleaner planet. The easy option that makes the most money... Again And your right StuartO it is only politics.

[Bop]

keninpalamos - 2017-04-06 3:42 PM

 

paulmold - 2017-04-06 2:36 PM

 

This is an interesting read if you want to know what causes the worst pollution..

 

 

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-the-15-biggest-ships-in-the-world-produce-more-pollution-than-all-the-cars

Thats a good point Paul. When the cruise ships dock in Palamos just up from Barcelona there is a considerable change in air quality as the engines are kept running and the black cloud that can hang across the town as they depart has to be seen. It's awful. Most ports around the world do not have the right equipment to supply ships with electricity while docked. Marseilles is dreadful. Even the local fishing boats around Spain will pollute more in one trip than most motorhomes would do in their lifetime. So why is all this legislation aimed at cars PLG HGV PSV? Because it's easy and a good way of making money and who's going to complain about a cleaner planet. The easy option that makes the most money... Again And your right StuartO it is only politics.

 

I think you've nailed it there Ken.

 

The only two things I would is add is the construction of London Heathrow Terminal-5 and the extra umpteen thousand pollutant aircraft it will bring; the other thing being that London (and other cities) are far too overcrowded for its/their own good. It's never ideal to have too many people in one small space and yet the business leaders insist on bunging them in there like sardines.

 

[david lloyd]

Bop - 2017-04-06 3:58 PM

 

keninpalamos - 2017-04-06 3:42 PM

 

paulmold - 2017-04-06 2:36 PM

 

This is an interesting read if you want to know what causes the worst pollution..

 

 

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-the-15-biggest-ships-in-the-world-produce-more-pollution-than-all-the-cars

Thats a good point Paul. When the cruise ships dock in Palamos just up from Barcelona there is a considerable change in air quality as the engines are kept running and the black cloud that can hang across the town as they depart has to be seen. It's awful. Most ports around the world do not have the right equipment to supply ships with electricity while docked. Marseilles is dreadful. Even the local fishing boats around Spain will pollute more in one trip than most motorhomes would do in their lifetime. So why is all this legislation aimed at cars PLG HGV PSV? Because it's easy and a good way of making money and who's going to complain about a cleaner planet. The easy option that makes the most money... Again And your right StuartO it is only politics.

 

I think you've nailed it there Ken.

 

The only two things I would is add is the construction of London Heathrow Terminal-5 and the extra umpteen thousand pollutant aircraft it will bring; the other thing being that London (and other cities) are far too overcrowded for its/their own good. It's never ideal to have too many people in one small space and yet the business leaders insist on bunging them in there like sardines.

 

Which seems to me another very good reason to avoid cities altogether.

 

David

[malc d]

keninpalamos - 2017-04-06 3:42 PM

 

 

 

When the cruise ships dock in Palamos just up from Barcelona there is a considerable change in air quality as the engines are kept running and the black cloud that can hang across the town as they depart has to be seen. It's awful.

 

 

 

 

......and yet they plan to build a cruise liner terminal at Greenwich .... where the constantly running engines are said to be the equivalent of over 600 diesel lorries parked with their engines running.

 

How come that is even being considered ?

 

:-|

[ROND]

If the clean air brigade get there way we will be back to the horse and cart very shortly, oh then they would complain about the gasses being let off.

 

We all want clean air yes but we need a sensible approach to run them down over their natural life.

 

We were all told Diesel was the way to go and encouraged to buy Diesel vehicles with lower fuel prices but unless we make a stand now our vehicle's will be worthless and just scrap metal and then what ? they will force us to buy Petrol driven vehicles then when everybody does that they will start banning those as well.

 

Is it just another ploy to rake in millions of taxes for Towns, London got away with their congestion charges because people didn't make a stand so now others want to jump on the bandwagon.

 

If Diesel is that bad then the Govt should make sure they stop manufacturing the engines as soon as possible and let the natural life of the vehicles take care of the problem. To try and tax owners to death is totally the wrong approach we all bought them in good faith.

[Alanb]

Muswell - 2017-04-06 1:13 PM

 

Yes but you can choose whether or not to smoke, you can't chose whether or not to breathe.....or not for long :-D

 

Hmmm, on Tuesday my wife had to visit a major hospital and we had to run the gauntlet of a cloud of cigarette smoke, emitted by the addicts clustered outside the entrance. Unfortunately my wife cannot run, as due to a recent operation she is non weight bearing on one foot.

 

 

[Alanb]

Bop - 2017-04-06 1:20 PM

 

Mrs Bop and I chose to live in a small village with its logistic, employment and investment limitations but we have good quality air.

 

Choices, choices eh :-D

 

My wife and I live in a rural area, and air quality can be attrocious when the local farmer is operating his fleet of massive John Deer tractors close to us. These vehicles pay zero VED, and use rebated red diesel,

 

Anyone want to try banning diesel tractors?

[flicka]

It's all political.

The original Euro 1 goes back to 1998 which was adopted by the EU in 1996. for implementation at the start of 2000, regarding Diesel pollutants whereby a greatly reduced specification had to be achieved.

 

The industry had to invest 100's of millions £/$, to reduce sulphur content by (IIRC) 90% in stages, through Euro 1 to Euro V. Other pollutants have also been reduced during the same period.

http://transportpolicy.net/index.php?title=EU:_Heavy-duty:_Emissions gives more details.

 

Hence the EU & UK government's push to encourage the use of diesel engine vehicles.

 

So, if diesel engine vehicles are producing greatly reduced pollutants that, say 20 years ago, WHERE are all the increased levels coming from ???????????

Vehicle volumes have not increased greater than the reductions demanded by the legislation.

 

 

 

[keninpalamos]

Alanb - 2017-04-06 9:14 PM

 

Bop - 2017-04-06 1:20 PM

 

Mrs Bop and I chose to live in a small village with its logistic, employment and investment limitations but we have good quality air.

 

Choices, choices eh :-D

 

My wife and I live in a rural area, and air quality can be attrocious when the local farmer is operating his fleet of massive John Deer tractors close to us. These vehicles pay zero VED, and use rebated red diesel,

 

Anyone want to try banning diesel tractors?

Ban tractors? You must be joking (lol) they are an essential tool in the modern world. How else are you going to be towed off wet grass. :D

[keninpalamos]

Mike88 - 2017-04-06 1:34 PM

 

I read somewhere that the worst polluters are log burning fires which seem to be fashionable at the moment.

I can see where you are going with that. That's probably why steam driven motorhomes never really took on, or off. :D

[keninpalamos]

Malo37 - 2017-04-06 10:05 AM

 

There seems to be a growing and probably unstoppable momentum around banning or charging diesel vehicles for entry into cities. This will no doubt be followed by the Government progressively increasing taxes on diesel vehicles, perhaps by steadily increasing tax on diesel fuel.

Seems like the motorhome brigade is going to be priced off the road and maybe even banned in some locations.

Is to time to sell up and find an alternative hobby ?

I think you will find a few on the forum take there motorhome a little more seriously than a hobby, more a way of life. Many have, like myself who are over sixty years of age have given up a lot already. I myself gave up target shooting thanks to the gun lobby (and the hundred yards hurdles but that was for other reasons ;-) ) The nanny state is gradually ruining ordinary peoples lives what with the word Easter disappearing of kids Easter eggs because manufacturers like Cadburys don't want to upset certain religions and marmalade makers losing their logo. It's all gone a bit silly. We seem to be scared of our own shadow. Thank god we can choose where we live to a degree. In a city where the air is to be, and has been protected or in the countryside or seaside where it is not. If it isn't the Green party it's the NIMBY's if it's not them it's the politically correct group with adenoids it's enough to drive you mad

[breakaleg]

Well I for one are worried about it.

We bought our latest van, new in 2015 I wasn't offered a choice of petrol or Diesel just take it or leave it. lol.

We live approximately 3 miles from the centre of Birmingham and have done so for years, what I wonder are going to be the implications for that?

i have signed the petition but it does state Diesel cars, will the van makers switch to Petrol engines if not, what future for Motor home Manufacture. if the government was serious about pollution they would be able to control it through the MOT TEST and any poorly performing engines would come under a scrapage scheme . if they were really concerned about the environment every new house built would have to have solar panels fitted as standard.?

But I guess that they only want your money.

Pete

[mgnbuk]

Malo37 - 2017-04-06 10:05 AM

 

There seems to be a growing and probably unstoppable momentum around banning or charging diesel vehicles for entry into cities. This will no doubt be followed by the Government progressively increasing taxes on diesel vehicles, perhaps by steadily increasing tax on diesel fuel.

Seems like the motorhome brigade is going to be priced off the road and maybe even banned in some locations.

Is to time to sell up and find an alternative hobby ?

 

Nothing new here, though maybe the title of this post should more accurately be "Old, most polluting, diesel vehicles banned " ?

 

Seven years ago, when I bought my first MH, the first of the London "schemes" was due to be implemented. The initial requirement was Euro 3 for diesels & this did, in part, affect my first purchase, which was Euro 3 compliant.. The more widespread German schemes were also up & running then - my Euro 3 van got an Amber sticker, which allowed access to some zones (but not all - some required a minimum of a Green sticker even then) but only for a year until all became Green (Euro 4 & 5) only.

 

The new London mayor has only advanced the timetable for tighter restrictions by a year or so from Boris' original agenda. Unfortunately, what is proposed doesn't seem to affect the major polluters (buses & taxis) - but that would require the Mayor to spend money, rather than coin it in at the expense of residents & businesses. And diesels will still be allowed - just with a minimum of Euro 6 emissions. The same is being proposed in Germany ( a Blue sticker for Euro 6 vehicles is in the pipeline again), so it isn't only a UK situation.

 

As our toys are based on commercial vehicles, we currently have no option but to buy diesel - when I was originally looking the last petrol vans seemed to be 2002 models & they were rare. The Fiat X244 handbook made mention of an LPG variant, but this may well have been an Italy only model & I have never seen one used as a MH base. Some US versions of the Ducato use a 3.5 litre V6 petrol automatic engine / transmission, but I doubt that they will make it over here to offer an alternative to diesel. And petrol may not be much better anyway, as I have read recently that current "direct injection" petrol engines can be as bad for particulate emissions as diesels & may not be allowed in the "Ultra-low " zones ! Maybe the next step will be hybrids (petrol, diesel or LPG) - but that will, inevitiably, increase unladen weights & recent threads suggest that MIRO is already a problem, so maybe not really a solution for motorhomes ?

 

I don't see that duties on diesel will rise dramatically any time soon, due to the adverse effect on the logistics side that would result in widespread price rises on anything that has to be delivered when the extra costs are passed on. More likely is a toughening of emissions testing at MoT time & a clamp down on those who illegally remove / tamper with pollution control equipment - the current MoT exhaust test for diesels seems very poor at picking up vehicles with blanked EGR valves, de-cored catalysts & DPFs, "chipping" etc.

 

For cars & commercial vehicles, the "problem" of older, dirtier, vehicles will work it's way out naturally in a fairly short period of time, as these vehicles naturally expire. Some of the die-hard users of such older vehicles could be tempted to change with a scrappage scheme which, if suitably targeted, should not cost HMG much. For motorhomes this is maybe more of an issue, due to the longer lifespan of an infrequently used leisure vehicle. I doubt such vehicles will be banned outright, but they will be subject to increasing restrictions on where they can be used - just as they have been for the last 6 years or so.

 

Nigel B.

[Dave225]

Some points spring to mind.

 

My campervan is fitted with the Euro 5 engine which has realtively low emissions of NOX gases, however, I have to assume that the engine in fact does meet the specification claimed and as we have seen with Volkswagen, there could be doubt about that.

 

Some cities are demanding that a sticker is displayed showing the emissions of that vehicle before entry can be approved, but having a sticker does not seem to my mind actually do anything to stop the emissions. A surcharge may also be imposed but that merely gives a tax revenue to the city concerned. If they were to ban them altogether then possibly there would be an improvement.

 

So far I have onlly read of puntive taxes being made to diesel cars, what about the millions of vans on the roads delivering umpteen packages daily? Since the dawn of internet shopping there has been huge rises in the number of such vehicles so by shopping in this way it appears we are shooting ourselves in the foot if we are trying to clean up the atmosphere. There are also more trucks running up and down the roads than ever before. Are they all really needed as all too often they run half or more empty.

 

There are also some systems that do remove NOX gases such as EGR controls but whether these meet the guidelines I am not sure. However, it shopuld surely be not beyond the human mind to develope some form of aftermarket scrubbing devices . I know some using zeolite have been used in the past.

 

My feeling is that as usual the powers that be shoot first by imposing a tax before actually sorting the problem.

[Muswell]

mgnbuk - 2017-04-07 2:50 PM

 

The new London mayor has only advanced the timetable for tighter restrictions by a year or so from Boris' original agenda. Unfortunately, what is proposed doesn't seem to affect the major polluters (buses & taxis) - but that would require the Mayor to spend money, rather than coin it in at the expense of residents & businesses. And diesels will still be allowed - just with a minimum of Euro 6 emissions. The same is being proposed in Germany ( a Blue sticker for Euro 6 vehicles is in the pipeline again), so it isn't only a UK situation.

 

Nigel B.

 

Actually, the buses are being phased out and the difference is quite noticeable in busy areas.

 

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/sadiq-to-stop-buying-dirtiest-diesel-buses

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_emission_buses_in_London

[Agaric]

As from January 2018 all Black Cabs sold in the UK have to have electric technology in them. Metrocabs already have a Hybrid out there with a 1 litre petrol engine and the new LTC FX5 hybrid will be in production in July.

 

Cab drivers are being offered £7,500 towards a new cab by the government, but it could take 15 years to replace them all at the current lifespan of a cab.

 

So what about a hybrid MH, seems a bit quiet on that front.