Do You Turn Your Gas Bottle Off

[enodreven]

Hi, Just a question ?, do you normally turn the gas cylinder/bottle off before traveling, and if you do Why ?? I have just fitted a Gaslow refillable cylinder with an external filling point and have been wondering whether i should turn the cylinder off before i move. the reason i am asking is that for those who actually run on LPG they obviously don't/can't turn the cylinder off, so why do I ? Is it an insurance requirement ? and if it is how do those that also use it to power their vehicles get over it ? Any help or advice would be welcome Brian

[Mel E]

Yes, you do ALWAYS turn the cylinder off before moving. The WHY is fairly obvious: 1. The cylinder is connected to a variety of outlets: hob, oven, water heater, air heater as a minimum (and probably fridge) . Turning off is a protection against any of the connections or T-junctions working loose from the vibration of travel. If one does, only the under-pressure gas in the pipe will escape. 2. In a crash - especially where the other vehicle hits the gas locker or near it - the gas pipe could well be seriously damaged with obvious potential consequenses - high pressure gas squirting from the disconnected pipe. 3. Gas cylinders used for motive power are normally mounted in a reasonably crash-proof position and have only the single off-take - to the engine. I think - but I may have this wrong and someone else can confirm or deny - that they have to have an automatic shut-off valve. I note that such vehicles are prohibited from most European tunnels where motorhomes with ordinary cylinders are not. In the end, it's just safer to travel with the gas cylinder turned off. Hope that helps.

[Clive]

The difference between a bulk tank for motive power and a bulk tank for running your leisure equipment is very simple, the take off pipe for the motive power version goes to the BOTTOM of the tank so that LIQUID comes out. This liquid is routed to a VAPOURISER which is warmed by the engine water to change it to vapour. In the leisure application it stops at the top of the tank so that vapour comes out. Other than that the tanks are identical. When used for motive power the rate of evaporation is much greater than that associated with leisure applications and the tank temperature would drop so low as to limit evaporation to such an extent it would not provide sufficient gas to supply the engine. Hence the external evaporator unit. Hope that helps. C.

[Brian Kirby]

Agreed, best policy is turn off while travelling, although I believe it is permissible to drive with gas heating running in Germany.  However, in France and Spain it is definitely illegal.

Isn't it also true that in the case of tanks for motive power the take off is a rigid, and not a flexible, pipe and so much less prone to fracture/rupture in an accident?

I think the prospect of a motorhome caught in a motorway pile up, with a cut high pressure gas connector blowing off 10 or so Kg of gas into the surrounding wreckage, should be the guiding thought.

There but for the grace.......?

[Mel B]

Enodreven Do a search for the below posting (use the search facility and put in the title making sure you select 'all posts'). Posted: 2005-06-28 10:57 PM Subject: IMPORTANT: FIRE RISK WARNING This is our experience of when we had a fire in our motorhome due to a pipe that came apart, fortunately we didn't have the fire until we were stationery, but if the pipe had come apart whilst we were travelling with the gas turned on we would definitely not be here today. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER travel with the 'domestic' gas turned on. It's too easy to think things will never happen to you ... unfortunately we found out that they do!!!

[enodreven]

Hi, Thanks for the info, just for the record before i posed the question I checked 3 vehicles that run on LPG and all of them have there take off points on the top of the cylinder and this take off also supplies the gas appliances so is turned on all the time, Also all 3 of these have the cylinders installed in a side lockers, similar to most Motorhomes. I do take the point regarding possible leaks but surely if these are caused by the vibration etc they will occur whether the cylinder is turned on or not, and i am sure that no one carries out a drop test every time before they turn the cylinder on, so the leak will occur then with the same affect. Also it is worth noting that a gas and air mixture within the supply can be a very dangerous situation so you need to be extra careful when purging the gas through when you initially turn the cylinder on

[Brian Kirby]

Enodreven

I think summat's up with those 3 vehicles you've looked at.  Either the gas supply you've seen isn't the one actually supplying the engine, or someone has been doing something a bit odd.

If the pipe comes from the top of the tank, what comes off is gas.  As I understand it, what has to be fed to the engine bay is liquid, not gas, with the liguid gassing off through the injection system.  That, I understand, is because the energy required is too great for practical delivery from the tank as a gas.  Given that, the take off for motive power must, surely, come off the bottom of the tank.

Either you were misinformed and there is another tank, or I think they'll be very slow motorhomes!

I think Mel was saying that had the gas been on while they were travelling, the fire could have commenced then, rather than after they had stopped.  Varying possibile outcomes, naturally: but one to avoid in an Alpine tunnel, perhaps?

[Mel B]

I think you're missing the point of my posting a bit. The pipe coming adrift happened whilst we were driving, but we didn't get the gas escape until we turned the gas on when we had stopped. If we had been travelling, with the gas turned ON when the pipe came apart, we would've been blown to pieces!!! No ifs or buts - we would be DEAD or VERY BADLY INJURED. Do you really want to risk this just because you can't be bothered to turn it off? If so, then why do you always put a seatbelt on? You might never be involved in an accident so why bother. We were very, very lucky - it was only because the gas was turned OFF that we are ALIVE. When the gas did escape after my husband turned it on at the bottle he had the time, which was less than a minute, to rush round and turn it off again. The damage caused to the van could've been absolutely catastrophic, never mind to us if he hadn't done this so quickly. There's simply no way we could've stopped the 'van, unlocked the gas locker and turned the gas off before we went with a very big bang. DO NOT underestimate what can happen, if you are stupid enough to travel with the gas turned then don't expect any sympathy if something does happen. I also suspect that if you did have to make a claim on your insurance because of this, assuming of course that you survive, you would probably get short shrift from them as the most common piece of advice you will get is to turn it off, if they then found out that you have been given the advice to turn it off for genuine safety reasons and then ignored such advice do you really think they'd pay up? I seriously doubt it. Sorry if this offends some of you but rather that than be blown to smithereens!!! :'( :'(

[enodreven]

Hi, Mel B Sorry to hear about your problems, but how do you think those that are powered by LPG get on ??.

[Clive]

Bulk gas tanks The outlet fitting can quite easily be at the top but the pick up pipe travels inside the tank to close to the bottom for liquid take off. I also understand that Tthe normal clue is that vapour tanks are painted red and liquid take off painted black. ?? C.

[Bill Ord]

I always leave my gas turned on when I travel. I've had AES fridges in my last two vans and there's little point in having them if you have to go outside and turn on the gas every time I stop. I take the point by Mel B about possible fire risk but frankly it's a risk I'm happy to take. I'm not the type that puts his van on a caravan site for a week at a time and uses it like a caravan, I move often and the conveinience of leaving the gas on is a big plus for me. Each to his own eh?

[Brian Kirby]

And in an accident??

I'm speechless!  The fire risk is not your's alone, so it is not really for you alone to decide whether or not it should be taken.

I also think your practice may well be illegal.  It certainly is on ferries/channel tunnel, and also on most roads in Europe possibly apart from Germany.

It really doesn't take that long to just turn off the taps.

[enodreven]

Brian You may be speechless but i have been running a poll on another site and its about 60/40 so there are lots of people who do leave theirs on, also from the poll it appears that of the 60% that say they turn it off, when questioned they actually admit that while their intentions are correct the actual fact is that a lot of them forget ?? The other point that no one seems to answer is if people use the same cylinder for the engine power then how do they get on ?? and as for your point about illegal can you point me to the legistaion documents that cover this as i have searched everywhere and i can't find any ?? the part regarding ferries and tunnels is it appears only a local rule specifically directed to the ferry or tunnel and as i am sure you are aware you only travel in those situations for approximatly 1 or less percentage of the time ? I would be very interested in the legislation that covers this ?? by the way most of the time when i remember i turn it off [QUOTE]Brian Kirby - 2006-03-27 11:28 AM

And in an accident??

I'm speechless!  The fire risk is not your's alone, so it is not really for you alone to decide whether or not it should be taken.

I also think your practice may well be illegal.  It certainly is on ferries/channel tunnel, and also on most roads in Europe possibly apart from Germany.

It really doesn't take that long to just turn off the taps.

[/QUOTE]

[enodreven]

Hi, Just an update regarding using the gas while traveling, or to put it another way leaveing the gas on. I have just spoken to Truma and they have informed me that they manufacture a device that allows you to do this and the item is to be found at the link below http://www.truma.com/truma05/en/news/detail_en_72293.html Brian

[Mel B]

Bill Ord: We travel about in our van every day when on holiday, most days to several locations. Yes it's a nuisance to have to keep turning the gas on and off but it only takes 30 seconds at the very most and I value my life, and that of others, much more than just to save such a short amount of time by leaving it on. My husband took very quick action and we also had a fire extinguisher which we used to good effect ... how many people could react this quickly and also know how to use a fire extinguisher? If you've never used one I suggest you have a go as it's not that obvious when you're up to your eyes in flames! I sincerely hope you never have to find out though!!! I haven't had an AES fridge and to be quite honest I'm not that bothered about having one, if I did, I'd still turn the gas off unless I was 100% sure it was as safe as turning the gas off.

[enodreven]

Hi, just an update, DO NOT USE a fire extinguiser on a GAS fire ??? it is very very dangerous ???

[Mel E]

Brian (enodreven), you really can't post a message like this: Why is it very dangerous? What might happen that's bad? We need to know. Are you sure you're not mixing 'gas fire' with a fat fire in a pan on a gas hob? Yes, a conventional extinguisher IS dangerous because it blows burning fat all over the place and very rapidly makes matters worse. Which is why you should have an asbestos blanket to hand near a cooker to throw over such a fire and starve it of oxygen. Surely, if you have a fire at a ruptured gas pipe or connection, first step is to turn off the gas and then extinguish the flames with any suitable extinguisher (even water will do if gas is off). If the gas is impossible to turn off (can't reach the cock or it's broken) then extinguish the flames, preferably with a dry powder extinguisher and then ensure adequate ventilation to allow gas to disipate and keep naked flames a long way away. With the flames out, it should be easier to turn the gas off. Or have I missed something?

[enodreven]

The main point you have missed is the fact that GAS is much safer when alight it becomes an explosive when there is no flame, if you cared to check with your local fire brigade, they will tell you the same thing, DO NOT FIGHT A GAS FIRE WITH A EXTINGUISHER, let it burn if you can't turn it off ??? I hope that makes sense ??

[Yorkshire Tyke]

[QUOTE]enodreven - 2006-03-27 1:25 PM Hi, Just an update regarding using the gas while traveling, or to put it another way leaveing the gas on. I have just spoken to Truma and they have informed me that they manufacture a device that allows you to do this and the item is to be found at the link below http://www.truma.com/truma05/en/news/detail_en_72293.html Brian[/QUOTE] We used to get our heating gas from a gas filling station When they heard we were to get a MH we were instructed NOT to travel with the gas turned on OK you have seen people (as i understand your post) with a gas cylinder in a locker supplying the engine. Well at one time (1960's) people were modifying petrol engines to run on Porpane - they housed the cylinder in the car boot This conversion is still possible to those who know how - peerhaps that is what you have seen Drawing liquids from the bottom of a tank with a top connection is often use in the chemical industry - they use a draw off leg that goes down to the bottom of the tank The Caravan Club, Camping Club both advise to turn off the gas at the cylinder while travelling - mainly for the reasons already explained above Also many ferries wil check that it IS turned of Some road tunnels and the channel tunnel limit the amount of gas that you can carry through them If you dont value your life think of all those you may take with you when you go

[Mel B]

We'd already turned the gas off and the fire estinguisher was to make sure the cupboard didn't go up in smoke in case it had caught fire inside from the 'blow torch'. As far as I'm concerned, if you have a gas leak fire and can't turn the gas off you should get away as far as possible from it and ring the emergency services. You should not try and tackle it yourself.

[enodreven]

Hi just to answer the questions you raised:- No i don't mean a Fat/oil fire and by the way don't use a ASBESTOS blanket, if you still have one of these dispose of it safely and buy your self a new non-asbestos fire-blanket On your second point the. I WOULD SUGGEST MY FIRST STEP WOULD BE to get everyone out and into a safe place. Then arrange for someone to call the emergency services, Then if I felt that after assessing the situation with a clear mind, that it is possible to safely go back to the fire and try to put it out then I may decide to do that, BUT be very very careful fires tend to get out of control very very easily?? And I DON’T WANT to be a Hero ??. Going onto your point about fighting a gas fire if you have a ruptured gas pipe that has been IGNITED once I had got everyone out and safely away I wouldn’t GO BACK, I would call the emergency services. If however taking a hypothetical situation. I was in a position to be close enough “after getting everyone out and into a safe place” to the main isolating valve without putting myself and anyone else at risk from the flames from this rupture that has ignited ?? ALBEIT I MUST QUESTION HOW THIS SITUATION COULD ARRIVE?? But assuming it has and that I am close enough to the main isolating valve to turn it off then I would do so, once I was absolutely sure that the valve had isolated the gas then I just MAY try to put the fire out, which by the way would no longer be a gas fire ?? If however I was UNABLE TO STOP THE GAS then i would leave it to burn safely as it is far less dangerous when it is alight than it is when it is allowed to build up as it will in all probability and become an explosive mixture which is far more dangerous. The only reason it ignited in the first place was because it reached its ignition point. As for the suggestion that in a fire that has been started by a ruptured gas pipe it would be possible to put the flame out and then ensure that there was adequate ventilation to disperse the gas before it was re ignited ?? or before it reached an explosive mixture would in my opinion be highly unlikely, and one must question how the gas ignited in the first place SO I WOULDN'T EVEN SUGGEST THAT PEOPLE SHOULD TRY IT?? I would get everyone out and make sure they were well away then call the Emergency Services If you can turn the gas off then it isn't a GAS FIRE anymore ? On a more important note i would suggest that everyone should take the time to carry out a small risk assessment on what they and their passengers will do in case of a fire, and clearly identify the methods of exit that they will take in various different situations? Also read the instruction on the extinguisher/fire blanket etc, I personally would only use the extinguisher for a very very small fire, the main thing however that I would use it for, would be to allow me to get everyone out of the MH eg. In front of me as a way if possible to dampen the fire sufficiently to allow us all to exit ?? I hope that makes sense ??

[Yorkshire Tyke]

Endroven I like your LAST comment However GOING BACK to turn off the bottle????????????????????????? Have you seen the result of a gas cylinder blowing up ???????? No I thought not As any fireman I saw the results of an EMPTY gas cylinder getting hot - Well the demolition men just had to shovel up the cinema AND the garage next door GET OUT and STAY OUT is the standing order I dont know the full details of the van fire - But should a pipe become disconnected behind /inside a closed compartment lighting a fridge, hotplate, oven could ingnite the gas. No the fire extiguisher in any van would have little effect to put out the fire while it was being fed with gas (The reason for turning it OFF while TRAVELLING) A fire blanket would also be usless If this happened because of an accident and you were to be trapped then///??????????????

[Mel B]

For info, we don't know for definite what the fire we had in our van was started with, it could've been: - my husband pressing the release button on the cupboard door that caused a spark - the static electricity in the air as we had been driving for some time and it was an extremely hot day in France - static electricity from my husband (he does suffer with this unfortunately sometimes as our poor dogs know when he strokes their muzzles!) - heat from the exhaust as this is located immediately under where the gas pipe had come adrift - the rushing in of oxygen filled air as he opened the cupboard The incident was fully investigated by a gas incident inspector, not just a gas fitter, he took about 3 hours poking around in the van and then wrote up a substantial report. The whole procedure cost the dealership a few hundred quid. No definitive explanation could be found for how it ignited, we will never know, but I can assure you it did. Question - do you just travel on your own, or do you have others with you, even just your dog (if you've got one)? You might be lucky enough to get out of your van if there was a problem, but what about the others? I hope you have very good public liability insurance .. but I sincerely hope you never need it!

[enodreven]

Hi, Mel B Could you put a copy of the report on the web as i am sure it would be very interesting to see what his findings were, and it would help everyone avoid this happening to them. Also if you have any photos of the incident they would be helpful Oh and by the way i do turn my gas off??

[Brian Kirby]

This really ain't rocket science.  For a fire, there must be combusitble material and a source of ignition.

In the case under discussion LPG = the combustible material.  It is (as we use it) stored as a liquid in cylinders at above atmospheric pressure.  When the pressure on the liquid reducs towards atmospheric pressure, it expands rapidly to become a gas.  The gas has a low flashpoint, so is easily ignited.

The cylinder is connected to the motorhome/caravan gas system pipework (of copper or steel) via a pressure reducing set.  This ensures that what is fed via those pipes, to our various appliances, is gas and not liquid.

The weak spot is the connection from the cylinder to the pressure reducing set.  This connection is flexible, to facilitate cylinder changes, and commonly made of synthetic rubber with a fabric reinforcement.  It thus resists the gas pressure, but is aged by the gas and must periodically be replaced.

The reason for turning off the gas at the cylinder is to reduce the risks from one of two possible causes of leakage.  One cause is fracture of the rigid pipe or failure of a joint along its length.  The other cause is physical damage to the flexible connection by cutting or chafing.  If any of these events ocurrs, and the cylinder cock has been left open, gas will escape until either the cylinder is empty or the cock is closed.

If, while the gas is leaking, it encounters a source of ignition, it will produce a jet of flame proportionate to the rate of leakage.

That jet of flame, in or around a motorhome, will play upon other combustibles: ply, plastics, fabrics, foamed plastic etc etc, of which the motorhome is made.

Should that happen while you are travelling, before you can do anything about the fire itself, you must first stop and evacuate the vehicle.  That takes valuable time, during which the fire will have spread and been fanned by your slipstream.  However, this can only happen if you have the main gas cock open.

If you close the cock while travelling, leakage cannot ocurr until the gas is turned on.  Before you can do that, you must get out of the vehicle.  Under these circumstances you may hear the leak before it finds a source of ignition, but if you don't, and accidentally ignite the gas, you at least have the chance to act immediately.  What will be the most appropriate action will depend on circumstances, but immediate evacuation of the 'van is the essential first step.

This seems to me a simple and straightforward enough concept to grasp.  I have nevertheless e-mailed the HSE for advice on regulations and or statute for those who feel they cannot apply common sense unless it is supported by a legal obligation.

I'll let you know the outcome in due course.  In the meantime, keep taking the pills!