Downplating, DVLA, VTG10 & Specialised Vehicle Converter

[jak]

Seeking advice on other members experience in 'downplating' a motorhome to 3500 KG and the DVLA's approach to documentation. I am in the process of attempting this reducing from 3900 KG with an unlaiden weight of 3100 KG. I have submitted what I thought were the appropriate documents to the DVLA, namely:

 

A weighbridge certificate from a licensed weighbridge plus an explanation of the state of the vehicle at the time of weighing

 

A new VIN plate showing the 3500 KG maximum weight and following a similar format to the manufacturer's original VIN plate

 

A photograph of the manufacturer's original VIN plate

 

The current V5 with the request for the weight change

 

V10 requesting change of tax class

 

This was all submitted in late December and I heard nothing. I therefore contacted the DVLA who claim to have never recieved the documents!

 

This is somewhat disconcerting but in discussing how I could best re-submit documents the representative raised the need for a VTG10 certificate to prove the vehicle's load can be reduced from 3900 KG to 3500 KG. This did surprise me as the logic of the exercise escapes me but as I am anxious to resolve matters I approached the DVSA. The DVSA's initial reaction was that it was an unnecessary action and they would have difficulty processing the application but I could fill in an application and hope it would be processed. On downloading the application form I appreciated where the rep was coming from and decided to approach DVSA by email to get what I hoped would be a more definitive response.

 

The DVSA reponded promptly stating :

 

' We don’t hold a technical record for your vehicle because of its motorhome status so we would not be able to process a VTG10 request.

 

Unfortunately this would mean your options are either getting in touch with the vehicle manufacturer or a specialised vehicle converter '

 

I re-contacted the DVLA and discussed the matter with them and they were adamant that I would need to get a VTG10 certificate and only backed down when I qouted the DVSA's response

' that because of its motorhome status so they would not be able to process a VTG10 request'.

After some discussion with their technical department the representative said they would consider the application when submitted implying that as I had a VIN plate and weight certificate it should be OK.

 

I can't say I am over confident that I will necessarily be successful with the application as I get a distinct impression the DVLA are leaning heavily towards insisting that one uses a 'Specialist Vehicle Converter' for all such applications. I have no arguement when one is up-rating a vehicle to employed such a specialist but question the reasoning behind using one for downplating providing it is shown there is adequate load capacity - which is my position.

 

My question is has anyone successfully downplated a motorhome recently and if so what procedure did they follow.

 

I apologise for the length of the post but felt it appropriate to provide all of the details.

[Derek Uzzell]

I can’t find anything reasonably recent on-line (here or elsewhere) describing the procedure involved when a motorhome is to be DIY ‘downplated’.

 

I note your comment

 

I can't say I am over confident that I will necessarily be successful with the application as I get a distinct impression the DVLA are leaning heavily towards insisting that one uses a 'Specialist Vehicle Converter' for all such applications. I have no arguement when one is up-rating a vehicle to employed such a specialist but question the reasoning behind using one for downplating providing it is shown there is adequate load capacity - which is my position.

 

but (speaking as an ex-civil servant) it won’t be that the DVLA and/or the VCA actively dislikes individuals seeking to DIY downplate or up-plate - it’s just that, when the exercise has involved a ‘professional’ specialist (SVTech being the usual one) there will be precedence. So, if you’d used SVTech services and they had provided you with a weight-variant plate, letter of declaration, relevant forms, etc. it’s near certain that the exercise to downplate your motorhome from 3900kg MAM to 3500kg would have whizzed through, as the the DVLA would have been accustomed to people using SVTech in the past and would be comfortable with SVTech’s involvement.

 

It’s possible that your application will now be successful, but if not and your age-70 birthday is imminent, SVTech may be your best option even though it will irk to spend money 'unnecessarily’.

 

(I’ve never been happy with a 3rd party - professional or individual - making up a weight-variant plate/sticker to override original weight-related data on a motorhome’s VIN-plate. What right does SVTech (or you) have to do this, just because it’s wished that the motorhome’s MAM and/or axle-weight maxima should be revised? I’m (fairly) OK with the manufacturer of the motorhome being prepared to provide a new VIN-plate as the manufacturer has ‘official’ status, but not with anybody else doing it. This is just a personal view, of course, as the DVLA doesn’t seem to be concerned...)

[jak]

Thanks Derek for having done a search. I did actually scour the forums in search of an answer before submitting the query but I was somewhat surprised not to discover anything.

 

My 70th passed last month and unfortunately the DVLA have had my licence application for 10 weeks now and it is still being reviewed. I have tried rattling the cage to no avail and the whole scenario is getting somewhat Kafkaesque - but heyho I am still breathing (and climbing mountains) so I am not going to get too fazed. They probably feel justified in giving me the runaround. I am not in a position to argue with them and suspect if I did it would only prolong matters.

 

I am annoyed that the DVLA have lost all my documents and show no evidence of being concerned about the matter. Indeed their first reaction was

'well in which case you will need a new V5 document - what is your credit card number!'

The submission involved a reasonable amount of effort, time and money but the actual delay is the most annoying point. It would be even more annoying if I had a licence.

 

The representatives in both the vehicle licensing section of the DVLA and DVSA were actually most helpful and it is quite possible the submission would be approved quite quickly. I certainly take your point that being familiar with Specialised Vehicle Converter style supported submissions the DVLA are, quite correctly, sure to treat such applications with more respect than an unsupported submission from a lay person.

 

If the post had indicated that there was large number of people who had successfully undertaken a DIY downplating I would have probably re-submitted my application but as it is given the time that has elapsed and living in hope that I will eventually get a licence I will probably seek professional assistance.

 

I have three Eurotunnel crossings to use before August so I will probably swallow the cost and contact SVTech.

[Karms]

Hi Jak,

 

I am currently in the process of downplating from 4600kg to 3500kg.

 

I weighed my vehicle at a scrapyard, and took a photo of the vehicle, on the weigh bridge, with the registration visible, the name and address of the actual scrapyard (sign, above the arch ) and holding my ticket up - so basically all in one picture. The reason for this being, the scrapyard doesn't issue a ticket with the vehicles registration number, just its weight. I am basically on first name terms with the downplating and HGV downplating teams at the DVSA by now as I have called them so many times.

 

They have confirmed that they will accept the photographs and the ticket.

 

The reason for me doing it this way, is simply because I could not find any official place that would supply the documents and weigh my vehicle. ( if anyone knows please let me know ) I have come across SvTech - but they are in Yorkshire (?) very far from me & I actually don't have a HGV license, can't insure or tax the vehicle on my current license ....so it gets a bit complicated on that front...

 

I supposed to attach a VTG7 to my VTG10 application, but I never had one - only a VTG6 from the VOSA (!)

 

First I was told I need to apply for a VTG7 via a VTG59, but hen they said, don't bother, since we will be issuing you with a new one (VTG7) anyway!

 

I have filled out the VTG10. On the bottom of the VTG10, there is a hyperlink in blue, you have to click on it and a new page will pop up: gov.uk : "APPLY FOR A VEHICLE TEST OR CERTIFICATE FOR A LORRY OR TRAILER.....you click START NOW.....

 

You will get to a page : Submit a Technical Application. (The DVSA actually talked me through it).

 

You fill it out and attach the VTG10, along with any other documents, photographs supporting your application and send it electronically.

 

The downplating procedure is processed by the DVSA not the DVLA, so no wonder they "didn't receive " your documents, they probably did, but didn't know what to do with them?? Thats my best guess.

 

Now, if your unladen weight is 3100, (mine is 3130) - it is very unlikely that you will get downplated.

They have told me this after I called them around 10 times per day for the last two weeks now.

 

They said, ideal unladen weight should be 2700-2800kg. If there is anything above that, you would need very strong evidence and thorough explanation what you want to use the vehicle for. I am sure, that you know, how they calculate it, they put numbers on top of the laden weight, 1-2-3 persons, plus a full tank of fuel - doesn't leave a lot of room for any extras to be carried especially if you are a motorhome....

 

I have some built in cabinets and a fold out ramp / steps - I will try to rip it all out and take it to the weigh bridge again - see if I could get rid of 100 -150 kg, as it will be in favour of the application.

 

This is as far as I have gotten. Hope this info was helpful. Cheers

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I think jak owns a Dethleffs motorhome of the type shown in the attached photo. This is reasonably large and care would certainly need to be taken to operate it legally at 3500kg MAM.

 

I don’t know what jak did prior to having his motorhome weighed, but if I were attempting this downplating exercise I’d really really ‘lighten’ the vehicle pror to taking it to a weighbridge. If that’s what jak did and the result was a 3100kg weight, then the ‘spare’ 400kg (3500kg - 3100kg) may well be insufficient.

 

Karms's wish to downplate from 4600kg to 3500kg is much more challenging and it’s plain that there are logistical complications that jak is not faced with. Contacting SVTech to begin will always make sense as, if they believe the DVSA won’t authorise downplating due to lack of available ‘payload’, they will tell the applicant. And, if SVTech believes downplating will be technically practicable and provides the applicant with the necessary forms, etc. (for a fee of course) it’s highly likely the the DVSA and DVLA will be comfortable with the application.

[Brian Kirby]

I just wonder if jak's motorhome might originally have been marketed at 3,500kg MAM, but uprated by its first owner to 3,900kg as a Dethleffs option? It's just that 3,900kg seems an odd figure for MAM.

 

I ask because our previous van (Hymet Exsis-I 578), was marketed as standard at 3,500kg MAM, but could be (and was by me, as I thought the resulting payload might be uncomfortably tight) uprated to 3,700kg MAM when ordering. So, it was delivered new with a Hymer plate showing 3,700kg.

 

I later found that it ran at just under 3,500kg fully laden, so decided to downplate it to 3,500kg in mid 2016, in part to widen its resale appeal, and in part to be free from the expense and faff of medicals to maintain my "grandfather rights" post 70.

 

I therefore contacted our Hymer dealer (Premier Motorhomes, Chichester) to see if they could obtain a replacement VIN plate at 3,500kg from Hymer. They could, so I followed that route and Hymer duly issued a replacement plate under cover of a letter confirming that the vehicle could be downplated to 3,500kg without modification, subject to conformation of its general condition. Total cost for Premier and Hymer was just under £300. For DVLA purposes, the confirmation of condition was provided via the MoT certificate.

 

My submission to DVLA included V70, a cheque for the extra VED due, V5C amended as appropriate, MoT certificate, confirmation from DVLA of VED paid (taxed over the net, so e-mail acknowledgement), the Hymer letter enclosing the VIN plate, a photocopy of the new VIN plate, plus a copy of a weighbridge certificate showing an unladen weight of 2,870kg. All the above except the VIN plate copy were originals, so I specifically asked for them to be returned, and posted them off "signed for".

 

I posted the documents on 13/7/16, and the new V5C plus the other documents were returned dated 22/7/16.

 

I just wonder if a similar exercise could be undertaken by jak via Dethleffs (Hymer group)?

[Derek Uzzell]

Jak’s motorhome is a 2008 Dethleffs Esprit RT6844 (example in photo above) that he has owned since 2010 and, as will be seen from this O&AL Buyers-Guide entry

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/buyers-guide/motorhomes/details/rt-6844/3891

 

this model was marketed in the UK with a Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of 3900kg.

 

Outside the UK the RT6844 would normally be marketed with a MAM of 3500kg as shown in this Dutch rental advert for a 2007-built version.

 

https://www.camptoo.co.uk/camper/1271/Super-luxury-motorhome-for-a-quiet-holiday

 

A contemporary French motorhome magazine quoted the ‘payload’ of a 3500kg-MAM RT6844 as 345kg, though I note that the Dutch advert gives a ‘tare weight’ of 2965kg.

 

Jak had sought to DIY the downplating exercise (rather than use the services of a company like SVTech) but in his posting of 17 February 2019 2:17 PM above he was considering contacting SVTech. It’s possible that he has decided to do that - or the DVLA has by now given his original application the green light - so, hopefully, the downplating exercise has beeen successful.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks for the extra info Derek. If jak hasn't yet had his re-plating exercise completed, or at least securely under way via DVLA or SVTech then, on the basis that the van was marketed in Europe at 3,500kg MAM, it seems possible he may be able to approach Dethleffs for a new plate - on much the same basis that Hymer were able to do our Exsis.

 

It would be a bit of a long shot, in view of the date of manufacture but, if available, the manufacturer's sanction for the downplating might help to overcome DVLA's apparent unease about the reduced payload.

 

Depending on what was actually included within the unladen weight of 3155kg implied in the French mag, 345 kg looks a somewhat tight payload margin!

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

What a mess you have. We do it in a split second by computer. Up or down. Fiat light chassis max 4000 kg.

[Derek Uzzell]

Monique

 

This has nothing to do with Fiat, as jak’s Dethleffs motorhome is based on a Renault Master (and there are no details of what vehicle Karms is seeking to downplate).

 

I don’t believe that downplating can be as simple as you suggest, as there must be realistic limits regarding the amount of downplating that will be acceptable. For example, it would be ridiculous to suggest that a motorhome that had a MAM of 6000kg and an ‘empty’ weight of 5000kg could be downplated to 3500kg.

 

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Derek the MAM like 3650,3700, 3850, 4000 was in my mind what ever brand. B or C licence.

[Brian Kirby]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-03-01 5:19 PM

 

What a mess you have. We do it in a split second by computer. Up or down. Fiat light chassis max 4000 kg.

Monique, I wonder if something is "missing in translation"?

 

The Fiat light chassis has a maximum front axle load of 1850kg, and a maximum rear axle load of 2,000kg. The two together total 3,850kg. To uprate the light chassis to 4,000kg MAM would require at least some change to suspension and/or tyres.

 

That change could not be achieved in a split second on a computer - even if printing a replacement VIN plate could. Are we all talking about the same thing?

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Brian that is correct. A standard fiat light is in the show room 3500- b licence, or 3650- c licence. The bridge fiat plate shows 3650 kg. Having a fiat lowered motor-home chassis. Not the sum of the max axle loads. You can retro fit this configuration to 4000 MAM maximum by suspension modifications including the wheels. No need for a a fiat heavy chassis if fit for purpose. I left AL-KO out of this for misleading reasons. Having this done for example by SV- Tech you are in heaven whit your fiat light. B-3500- C 4000. To put that on paper is the next step. That depends on the plate registration per country in The EEC where you want to park it.

[Derek Uzzell]

In this early-December thread jak enquiried about renewing his driving-licence as he was approaching age-70

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Driving-Licence-Medical-Requirements-Post-70/50835/

 

This was also mentioned in his posting of 17 February 2019 2:17 PM above.

 

As jak’s most recent forum logon was on 20 February, there seems to be little profit in digressing further over this.

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Never the ever is that you remove the original plates that complies whit the original certificate of conformance (COC) and that can be up to three plates.

[jak]

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-02 3:24 PM

 

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-03-01 5:19 PM

 

What a mess you have. We do it in a split second by computer. Up or down. Fiat light chassis max 4000 kg.

Monique, I wonder if something is "missing in translation"? ...... Are we all talking about the same thing?

 

I think I understand where Monique is coming from - and its not Brussels. And I agree it is a mess Monique but the British just love to formalise and unduly complicate matters - it keeps a large section of the Swansea population employed in quite well paid jobs. Not to mention discounted personalised number plates

 

And Brian I find some of the most enjoyable and satisfying conversations can be had when the parties involved are talking about totally different things. As for lost in translation - ask David Davis.

 

On the actual matter of downrating the DVLA lost my original application, including all associated paperwork and replacement plates and after 3 attempts at locating the lost/undelivered package I gave up. In order to rush matters through I resorted to using SV Tech who provided a very good and relatively economic solution.

 

I am currently in the process of making a fresh submission - by Recorded Delivery - that is if I can find out, from the DVLA's web site, what the Vehicle Tax is for a 2008 2.5L diesel motorhome!

[Derek Uzzell]

From 1 April 2018 until now, the Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) 12-months rate for a Tax Class 11 vehicle (Private/light goods vehicle weighing no more than 3,500kgs) has been £255.

 

http://tinyurl.com/y8u63ftg

 

However, this December 2018 article warned that there would be increases from April 2019.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1062346/car-tax-UK-changes-2019-DVLA-how-much

 

It remains to be seen if Tax Class 11 and/or Tax Class 10 (the VED classes into which most motor-caravans fall) will be affected, but historically the TC 11 rate has generally risen annually, whereas the TC 10 rate has generally not increased.

 

The Royal Mail no longer provides a “Recorded Delivery” letter delivery service. There’s “Signed For” or “Special Delivery Guaranteed” as shown here

 

https://www.royalmail.com/personal/sending-mail

 

My understanding is that - due to the huge volume of mail arriving at the DVLA - you’d need to choose the “Special Delivery Guaranteed” service if you wanted to confirm that your application had been signed for at the DVLA end.

[jak]

Thanks Derek I am impressed by your knowledge of the DVLA web site.

 

Those are quite siginficant increases! It could be worth me taxing it from the beginning of March and losing a month - thats on the presumption the DVLA can turn it around in 2 or 3 weeks and I get my driving licence application resolved! I wonder what the new motorhome tax values will be.

 

I used the term 'recorded delivery' as that was what the DVLA rep quoted when I was endeavouring to locate my 'lost' documentation.

 

I must admit I am not familiar with the Royal Mails range of services but it looks cheaper to send a signed international rather than UK special delivery! Delivery charges these days are mad. I can and do ship upto 14 kg packages through out Europe for only marginally more than these special delivery rates!

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-07 1:42 PM...………………….My understanding is that - due to the huge volume of mail arriving at the DVLA - you’d need to choose the “Special Delivery Guaranteed” service if you wanted to confirm that your application had been signed for at the DVLA end.

Just on this, Carole had to reapply for her licence in February, and the application was sent "signed for". The Post office provide a proof of posting receipt for the item, which also contains a tracking number. This was subsequently checked at Royal Mail tracking, and there was a visible signature (albeit just initials) that could, if necessary, have been printed off. This was also the case the last time I had to do mine. There was just a squiggle on the "delivered" record, but it did provide some proof of delivery. One might think they'd have a dated rubber stamp at the reception desk - remember them? :-D

 

If jak is satisfied with a squiggle on the delivery record (I doubt that anyone at DVLA would risk actually giving their name! :-)), I think it should give sufficient evidence of delivery to compel DVLA to at least acknowledge that the loss is their responsibility. 'Though, however it is delivered, if the package goes down the back of DVLA's sofa and they can't/won't find it, what alternative would one have but to re-submit?

 

As with all bureaucracies, the important thing is to keep copies of all documents sent until the item applied for is received - and checked for correctness.

[Billggski]

Just imagine the number of letters arriving every day at Swansea!

I guess they employ someone full time for those requiring a signature, and then they all get thrown into the same box as the rest?

[Derek Uzzell]

Over the years there has been a good deal of on-line discussion about how best to confirm that mail sent to the DVLA actually arrives there, and how best to confirm that mail has actually been sent from the DVLA.

 

https://tinyurl.com/y49dvbzr

 

These entries may be of interest

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/sending-v5-to-dvla-use-special-delivery.160293/

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/380162-royal-mail-recorded-sign-for-item-letter-to-dvla-containing-v5c-form/

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/496794/FOIR4552_-_How_many_applications_lost_internally_by_the_DVLA.pdf

 

[Billggski]

100K a day, and that was when the local offices were open!

You can see why they do so much on line now.

[jak]

Thanks Brian and Derek

 

I must admit I was totally unaware there was such a major problem with 'lost' V5 and other documentation at the DVLA/Royal Mail Swansea. On reflection it was the first question the DVLA rep asked when I queried whether they had recieved my application.

 

It makes me wonder if it would n't be better to use an independent company such as UPS or Hermes who I use for electronics and other European parcel deliveries. Parcel2go indicates Hermes offer a 2 day service with £20 coverage at £2.32!

 

Having already in effect suffered a signficant financial loss including having to pay £25 for a replacement V5

- just to rub it in - I think I will play safe and use the special delivery option.

 

There is a limit to how much dialogue/correspondence I can have with the DVLA. Telephone conversations tend to get pretty fraught already. I live so close to them it would be cheaper to drive but they have taken that option away too now - not that hand delivery would be an option in these days of overt security.