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Ducato 2.8JTD oil leaks


euroserv

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Hello all,

 

In the face of overwhelming evidence I have to advise you of a serious risk of oil leaks on Fiat Ducato (or Peugeot/Citroen vehicles) fitted with 2.8JTD or 2.8HDi engines.

 

In 2005 the manufacturer changed the recommended oil from 10W40 to 5W40 and as such we have been filling our vehicles with the latter oil if they were registered in 2005 or later.

 

Prior to this we had used 15W40 and 10W40 with no oil leaks at all EVER from the front crank seal on any vans registered 2004 or previous.

 

Without exception ALL of the vans in which the 5W40 oil was used have developed leaks from this seal. I am talking about in excess of 20 vans of ours and another 20 or so customer owned vehicles and stress again that ALL have been affected.

 

The problem has not affected any of the 2.3 engines or any of the later X250 vehicles. I cannot comment on 2.0JTD because we see very few of them.

 

I would strongly recommend that anyone using 5W40 should at the next service change to 10W40 to help to avoid this problem which could result in an unscheduled cam belt change as this has to be removed to change the seal. It may be too late to prevent this happening and for this reason I would recommend that anyone having a cam belt change soon should ask for a new seal to be fitted and have an oil change at the same time. The seal is about £20 and I recommend using the genuine Fiat/Iveco part number 504086314 (It's cheaper from Iveco).

 

I have always been wary of any manufacturer changing the spec of oil without any engineering upgrades and this is a classic example of jumping on the bandwagon without any consideration of the consequences.

 

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, I hope that this advice will spare some of you from a considerable bill. Even though you travel far less miles than my vans do; a 100% failure rate suggests that many of you will be affected eventually.

 

Nick

Look on the bright side... 10W40 is cheaper.

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Very useful tip-off.

 

Unconnected with this specific model issue, but a while ago I "treated" my old-dog of a 1992 Peugeot J5 van based motorhome to some 10w-40 (or it may have been 15w-40?) semi-synthetic oil.

Mistake.

 

The underside of the engine had always been clean as a whistle, no leaks anywhere.

But I got an oil leak within a couple of hundred miles from crankshaft oil seal.

 

On good advice from you guys and others, I drained it out and replaced it once more with good old cheapo 20w-50 mineral oil, and cleaned up the mess in the engine bay.

Problem resolved immediately, and 4,000 miles later, at the time of writing, still no leak any more at all.

 

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Brambles - 2011-03-23 3:01 PM

 

Hi Nick,

What brands of oils are you using because this could be of a more significant effect than the change from semisynthetic to full synthetic, and grade change?

In otherwords are you using the same brand of oil for both types?

Jon.

 

Not so.

 

There should be no difference between Semi and Fully synthetic oils at the same grade since it is the grade that indicates viscosity within a given temperature range. The idea that synthetic oils are thinner and find their way past seals is a myth. When the XR3/GSi/RS/GTi brigade first switched to synthetic oils in the 80's this was a problem but because they suddenly put 0W50 synthetics in cars designed for 20W50 or 15W40 they were asking for trouble. Mobil 1 made a 4 stroke engine consume as much oil as a 2 stroke back in the day!

 

For the record we used to use Elf oil until 2002 when we changed to Gulf. These oils are of the highest quality available and exceed all specifications from all manufacturers at their given grades.

 

When the 2.4 Transit engine was launched they specified 0W30 semi or preferably full syn oil. I was sceptical but in spite of a number of places that they do leak oil, crank and rear main seals are not among them so Ford backed up their spec with proper engineering solutions, as have Fiat and Iveco with the 2.3 and 3.0 engines.

 

I am not going to get into lengthly discussions with anyone who doubts my reasoning or evidence to support my conclusions; I do not have the time.

 

If you want to avoid problems or minimise those you cannot avoid, use 10W40 or even 15W40 for a longer lasting engine.

 

If you don't believe me, do it your own way and jolly good luck to you.

 

I have no wish to offend anyone but armchair analysists do not have the solid evidence or quantity of examples to call upon. I do. So let's leave it at that please, no debate, just some good solid advice from the front line.

 

Nick

 

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Nick

Thanks for your usual factual and very welcome advice.

 

However I am a little puzzled as to why a change to the thicker 10/40 oil would not suffice without changing the seal. Does the thinner oil damage the seal in some way ? Having a 2003 2.8 JTD with Halfords fully synthetic 5/40 oil annualy put in I am more than academically interested !

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Silicongyro - 2011-03-23 6:23 PM

 

Nick

Thanks for your usual factual and very welcome advice.

 

However I am a little puzzled as to why a change to the thicker 10/40 oil would not suffice without changing the seal. Does the thinner oil damage the seal in some way ? Having a 2003 2.8 JTD with Halfords fully synthetic 5/40 oil annualy put in I am more than academically interested !

 

Good question.

 

We noticed this was beginning to be a problem 18 months ago, and for the last 12 months all of these vans have been fed a diet of 10W40 only. There have been no cases of having do change seals again since the oil swap but every single one that ever had 5W40 in it has failed.

 

It would seem that the lighter oil has slowly penetrated the seals irretreivably.

 

Changing to 10W40 will help delay the inevitable hopefully until you need a cam belt.

 

Nick

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Nick

 

Thanks.

A supplementary please!

What/where are the early indications of a seal starting to fail/leak ie. can one readily observe the point underneath the engine where the leak or drip would be apparent? Also, apart from the irritation of topping up the oil, is there a downside to putting up with the seal leaking - does oil get to where it will cause more problems ?

I remember in my youth having several Reliant 3 wheeler cars with Austin 7 based engines which invariably would leak oil past the rear crankshaft seal and into clutch bell housing. It then dripped out of a hole in the housing spoiling driveways, but otherwise not affecting anything else !

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euroserv - 2011-03-23 6:21 PM

 

I am not going to get into lengthly discussions with anyone who doubts my reasoning or evidence to support my conclusions; I do not have the time.

No one yet has doubted you or your reasoning, you stated facts and you yourself appear mystified.

 

 

If you don't believe me, do it your own way and jolly good luck to you.

 

No one is disbelieving you. I am sorry you seem to feel you are being critisised or not believed but I really find it hard to believe how you read that out of my reply.

 

 

 

I have no wish to offend anyone but armchair analysists do not have the solid evidence or quantity of examples to call upon. I do. So let's leave it at that please, no debate, just some good solid advice from the front line.

 

 

I am NOT an armchair analyst and upset you feel you had to make these comments and in no way was I doubting what you have said. I am actually very concerned by your comments on the seals showing evidence of leaking with the 5w40 especially as only the 2.8 jtd and on 10w40 does not have an effect. So much so I have pulled out all the specifications and data for the brand you use and others to compare.

 

I would like to make a stong point here though, all the evidence you have says it is Gulf 5w40 which is leaking (correct me if I am wrong) and no evidence you have mentioned so far says other brands will do the same.

 

Jon.

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Guest 1footinthegrave

I for one would err on the side of caution, in other words LISTEN to someone who is far better placed to give this advise, why argue the toss,brand of oil etc. Just either accept the advice or ignore it, simple.

 

As far as I'm concerned valuable advice from someone dealing with these vehicles on a regular basis is a huge asset to this forum.

 

As a side issue I wonder how many of the 2.8 jtd's, in my case a 2003 model has suffered what I have had to just have replaced, my sump pan, due in some part so the garage say of having no oil leaks at all that reach the sump pan. The result being the front of mine had just become porous as a result of rusting through from the outside, and was just starting to leak oil from numerous tiny holes. Don't get me wrong, far sooner have no oil leaks, but had I have known I could have affected some preventative action.

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Brambles - 2011-03-23 8:01 PM

 

I would like to make a stong point here though, all the evidence you have says it is Gulf 5w40 which is leaking (correct me if I am wrong) and no evidence you have mentioned so far says other brands will do the same.

 

Jon.

 

Strange how differently people read what has been said. I understood that it was the viscosity that was the problem not the brand. I can't see why good advice (substantiated by others) should be picked at *-)

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Over the last three years I have changed my oil and oil filter before my sojourn to France. Motor factor asked do you want the specified oil rather than a cheap alternative and then supplied 10w40 after referring to his books.

 

Have had no problems but would have thought Fiat would have been made aware of this which may be why I was given 10w40.

 

Thanks Euroserv

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  • 1 year later...

Wish I had seen this earlier, changed to 5w40 now have rear crankshaft seal leaking withing a few hundred miles, the part number euroserv gives 504086314 seem to be the rear seal according to eper with 504086312 bring the front seal.

http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi?MOD_COD=245&COUNTRY=012&GRP_COD=101&CAT_COD=2E&SBMK=T&DRIVE=D&MAKE=F&COMM_MODEL=DUC&ALL_FIG=0&LANGUAGE=3&PREVIOUS_KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&NEW_HTTP=TRUE&ALL_LIST_PART=0&SB_CODE=-1&KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&PRINT_MODE=0&EPER_CAT=SP&GUI_LANG=3&WINDOW_ID=1&SGRP_COD=2&SGS_COD=15&DRW_NUM=4

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