kevina Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 My 56,000 mile van failed the mot on rear handbrake inefficiency recently so I had the pads, discs and shoes replaced. Before the mot the handbrake would hold perfectly if trying to pull away in first gear. After the mot the handbrake was next to useless so I've taken it back for readjustment which they have attempted but failed and they've now told me that (after consulting a Fiat pro garage) that they will have to replace the new shoes with original Fiat at a cost of £200 for the parts (no additional labour). Sounds a lot? Has anyone had shoes replaced on an X250? edit. This is a reputable local garage. I can answer my own question as I've just phoned a Fiat Professional dealer for the price: £222.18 PLUS vat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 I suggest trying a Peugeot and or Citroen dealer for the parts as there are often differences in price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 The handbrake seems to be a weak spot on many vans. especially when standing unused. It generally tends to hold well on a slope but fails on the emergency retardation requirement of the MOT. Many of us leave it off when parked at home to avoid the risk of it rusting on over winter but the rust still forms. I have found over the years that lack of use is the culprit rather than wear and tear and before lashing out on new parts try giving the van a good run whilst pulling the handbrake on and off as many times as your arm can stand as that generally frees it up and polishes and cleans the surfaces enough to pass the MOT - and better still it costs nowt. Alternatively a month in the remoter areas of the Alpes or Pyrenees where opportunities for handbrake use abound should do the trick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Hello, The same shoes fit all X250 vehicles and can be purchased for a lot less at motor factors. We use Bosch BS946 so you should ask for this part, or an equivalent. I am sure that TRW and Girling do them as well. It would be quite extraordinary for the shoes alone to fix the problem. I would normally save time and trouble and replace the discs at the same time because you just won't be able to bed the shoes into the drums without torturing the cables to get it through the MOT. In my opinion; given that the shoes and drums are probably not worn, the most likely cure is a set of handbrake cables. The stretch a bit and it becomes more and more difficult to get enough 'effort' on the handbrake to pass the test. PS Just seen Rich's post above. Great idea...you have little to lose by trying that but you must apply the lever firmly at no more than about 10mph or you risk twisting things around a bit and causing more trouble! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 The brakes were fine before the mot, I did as Tracker suggests but in hindsight should have done it more or even have taken it away after the fail and worked on it myself. The discs were pitted as we spend 2 months skiing each winter and the salt does get in there, the pads were also pretty worn so went with full replacement which has got me where we are now with budget parts. Since I posted I've done a bit of reading and phoning and asked them to fit TRW shoes which were recommended by a Fiat Pro dealer as the best alternative at about £70+vat, twice the price of the ones they originally fitted but one third the price of Fiat. Thanks for advice, backs up the decision I'd made. I'll report back on how the TRW ones feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Bear in mind that adjusting the handbrake cables is not just a matter of taking up the slack. There are 2 adjustment points for a reason. They both have to be adjusted so the cables are pulling at the right angle to increase the leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 kevina - 2017-08-03 3:38 PM ...Since I posted I've done a bit of reading and phoning and asked them to fit TRW shoes which were recommended by a Fiat Pro dealer as the best alternative at about £70+vat, twice the price of the ones they originally fitted but one third the price of Fiat... Have you checked with a Fiat Professional agent what the Fiat parts-list price is for a set of Ducato handbrake shoes? I can understand the price being more than equivalent (or the same) shoes purchased on-line or via a motor factor, but £200 is an extraordinary price for just a set of 4 shoes. Are you sure that the £200 quote did not include other brake-related parts as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 I think part of the problem is that this is not, in reality, a handbrake, but a parking brake. In other words it is not a brake to be used while the vehicle is in motion, but only when it is stationary. Since it is quite separate from the service brake, and generally only gets used while stationary, the shoes never meet the drums with the wheels rotating, the drum never gets polished, and I'd guess that the shoes never get properly bedded in. Our van failed its MOT this spring on handbrake (it was taken for test by a Fiat Professional garage in conjunction with a service), and the garage suggested that it needed to be stripped, the disc/drum/calipers removed and cleaned up, the mechanism lubricated, and the whole adjusted and reassembled. This was all done, and the MOT was passed. The van was just under four years old, so it was only its second MOT. The mileage was 23,176 and the cost an extra £108. The handbrake had never been that impressive until this was done! :-) Nick (euroserv) subsequently advised slowly driving off with the handbrake lightly applied for a few yards from time to time to reduce the rust haze on the drum. There is a warning in the Fiat manual about using the handbrake while the vehicle is in motion, and Nick cautioned about doing this along with his recommendation. I get the impression that if applied while actually rolling, especially if applied hard, the brake shoes are prone to grab - with quite spectacular results! I think the MOT test procedure is not ideal with this kind of mechanism, and also that the mechanism is ill-suited to motorhome use where the vehicles spend long periods static, often in damp conditions. The "drive away with the handbrake lightly applied" method of exercising the mechanism seems a safer bet than the "pull on the handbrake while driving" method since, if the mechanism grabs and locks-on during the latter, you may provoke an unexpected reaction from the vehicle, and possibly have some difficulty subsequently getting the brake to release. Nick's further observations would be welcome, said the pupil to the master! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 I have been using this method for years both for the MOT and mid year just to keep things working and whilst I hear and understand all the warnings about brakes grabbing etc it has never once happened to me in all those years. In fact the parking brake braking ability on a moving van is so poor that I have my doubts it even would happen, but if Nick says it can then that is good enough for me to take notice and it pays to take heed of the warnings and only do so at low speeds on deserted and wide roads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 My van struggled on it's second MOT 2015, only just managing to pass, for the 2016 MOT as I drove to MOT station I applied handbrake several times and it passed at a reasonable force, when the van was at Nick's I asked him to check it, and it was adjusted, on the 2017 MOT passed with flying colours, tester commented about how good the handbrake was. Unless the friction material was worn to low levels I'd say 'you've been tangoed'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 I too can thoroughly recommend having Nick's maestros service your van. It may be a long drive for many and you certainly used not to get any luxuries like plush seats and a tv to watch because it just is not that sort of business, but if it interests you, and it should your van being such a huge investment, there is much to learn that you won't learn from a main dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-08-03 6:49 PM Have you checked with a Fiat Professional agent what the Fiat parts-list price is for a set of Ducato handbrake shoes? I can understand the price being more than equivalent (or the same) shoes purchased on-line or via a motor factor, but £200 is an extraordinary price for just a set of 4 shoes. Are you sure that the £200 quote did not include other brake-related parts as well? £222.04 + vat from my garage (via local Fiat Pro) and £222.18 + vat from another Fiat Pro Dealer. I just asked for shoes and both said they weren't stock and would take a few days to arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 How about getting them relined http://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=146 No shortage of firms offering this service do a google search find one near you http://www.autoandindustrial.co.uk/index.php?webpage=brake-shoe-relining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 The thing is I've never known of the type of rear handbrake used on x250 to wear out unless there's a problem. The only time the shoes do any braking is on the MOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Tracker - 2017-08-03 7:09 PM I have been using this method for years both for the MOT and mid year just to keep things working and whilst I hear and understand all the warnings about brakes grabbing etc it has never once happened to me in all those years. I'm afraid that I've been applying the handbrake hard and at speed too but thankfully haven't had any problems. I usually do it on the same fast 50-60mph descent into a nearby roundabout and at first there's little retardation but a lot of squealing. Then things begin to clean up and you can feel the braking effort build. Without this routine the handbrake becomes almost completely useless over time. My handbrake efficiency test (on all our vehicles, especially pre-MOT) involves accelerating up to about 10mph on our gravel driveway and yanking on the handbrake. If that doesn't produce 2 equal furrows in the gravel from both locked wheels then it's time for some cleaning action. Another handbrake issue that I've noticed with the X250/X290s is a complete lack of holding power after a long alpine-type descent with very hot brakes. I can't decide whether this is due to the 'drums' being very hot while the handbrake shoes are stone cold, i.e. a compound issue, or because the hot drum has expanded away from the shoe. I suspect it's the former though because the handbrake lever travel remains unaffected and my shoes are adjusted as tight as possible to the drum to the point where they sometimes chirp going around roundabouts. Either way it can take you by surprise if you're not expecting and prepared for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 kevina - 2017-08-03 10:11 PM Derek Uzzell - 2017-08-03 6:49 PM Have you checked with a Fiat Professional agent what the Fiat parts-list price is for a set of Ducato handbrake shoes? I can understand the price being more than equivalent (or the same) shoes purchased on-line or via a motor factor, but £200 is an extraordinary price for just a set of 4 shoes. Are you sure that the £200 quote did not include other brake-related parts as well? £222.04 + vat from my garage (via local Fiat Pro) and £222.18 + vat from another Fiat Pro Dealer. I just asked for shoes and both said they weren't stock and would take a few days to arrive. I’d want them gold-plated for that price... This link shows various makes of shoe that (presumably) would be suitable for a Ducato X250 parking brake. https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/fiat/ducato-platform-chassis-250/30473/10134/handbrake?brand%5B%5D=62 I don’t know what brand of shoe Fiat fits as original equipment (Brembo?) but even the most expensive set advertised on the link is (just) under £100 and the sets from reputable manufacturers like Ferodo, Bosch and TRW are all sub-£35. I note that you’ve said that before the MOT test the parking brake was OK, but not afterwards. As Brian suggests above, unsympathetic treatment during an MOT test has the potential to harm the parking brake and (reputable local garage or not) if the shoes’ friction material becomes ‘cooked’, replacement will be the only option. It might be worth you asking the garage to give you the shoes that they will have replaced to see if there are any signs of them having been overheated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Fiat have always asked outrageous prices for brake components. For over 20 years the asking price for rear shoe kits has been around £200 but in their defence the kit does include some new springs! They charge £80 or so for front discs (each) as well so don't actually sell very many. I have had to replace some oil coolers on older vans recently and Fiat ask nearly £300 for them while the same item/part number from Iveco is nearer £60. They certainly keep me on my toes! Thanks for the kind words Rich, I enjoy meeting the owners that travel from all over the UK to get there vehicles fixed here. We are indeed a bit belt and braces here but as you say, there is always a coffee going and you are welcome to talk to me while i work and get to know your vehicle that bit better. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Cheers Nick, I can't resolve the issues of A] is it purely a parking brake or is it dual purpose parking and retardation whilst mobile brake? B] as the MOT seems to regard it as an emergency brake for the purpose of testing it suggests the latter? C] if it is prone to 'grabbing' when used as an emergency brake, perhaps it wasn't designed to be an emergency brake as well as a parking brake? D] maybe the design isn't up to the job as it is pretty useless as an emergency brake? E] as the main footbrake is a dual circuit system do we even need an emergency braking system, and if we do shouldn't it be one we could rely upon? F] maybe the engine and gearbox is more effective than the handbrake at slowing the van and bringit almost to a halt? Or have I got it all wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 If the master cylinder fails as happened on our old Astra a handbrake is a handy thing to have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Rear handbrake. I had a breakdown in Belgium where my rear wheels locked up after a loud clunking and bang. After being recovered to a local fiat garage. It was diagnosed that the handbrake pads had come loose and rotated and jammed the wheel. They suggested that the van had been driven with hand brake still partially on. So not arguing as van out of warranty I paid up 458 euro, they renewed both rear sides Now this had happened when the van was 6 months old after driving down a cobbled street then Fiat covered the bill. so, set me thinking ok I may have left hand brake not fully released. but a few hours previous we had driven down a cobbled street. On the first occasion, the fiat garage in France only replaced the one side handbrake pads and other parts but claimed for both. On returning it the Up I took the van to an Iveco garage for a short service where they checked the back brakes after I told them what had happened. It landed up with complete new set of brakes and drums abdominal muscles etc bill was £3k fortunately Fiat paid up Having read Nicks post and mention of springs I have found others that have had same problem and it appears the springs snap or come loose hence no more driving down cobbled roads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 That is a very unfortunate experience Ham and it reinforces my thinking that it is a design defect rather than a user derived fault, although Fiat would never accept that of course? The last thing one needs on a holiday, especially abroad, is the worry, time and cost involved in this sort of avoidable breakdown. I wonder whether there has been any redesign of the parts involved over the years or whether it is yet another poor or cost cutting design issue to which Fiat say it's not their problem? I have been driving a long time and have had countless cars (but no Fiats!) MOT'd and never have any of them failed on a handbrake issue, although several Sevel based vans have come mighty close, so if car makers can get it right why can't Sevel? PS Only press the send button once, the forum can be very slow to respond at times but it usually catches up eventually!!!! (EDIT: 5 duplicate posts now deleted. Keithl). PPS Come to think of it I did have a Fiat Panda many years ago when I was doing a bit of buying and selling and that failed it's MOT on the handbrake and had to have some parts and a lot of cleaning and adjusting!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Tracker - 2017-08-04 5:09 PM Cheers Nick, I can't resolve the issues of A] is it purely a parking brake or is it dual purpose parking and retardation whilst mobile brake? B] as the MOT seems to regard it as an emergency brake for the purpose of testing it suggests the latter? C] if it is prone to 'grabbing' when used as an emergency brake, perhaps it wasn't designed to be an emergency brake as well as a parking brake? D] maybe the design isn't up to the job as it is pretty useless as an emergency brake? E] as the main footbrake is a dual circuit system do we even need an emergency braking system, and if we do shouldn't it be one we could rely upon? F] maybe the engine and gearbox is more effective than the handbrake at slowing the van and bringit almost to a halt? Or have I got it all wrong? My Ducato Owner Handbook has a “HANDBRAKE” section that advises as follows: “IMPORTANT Apply the handbrake only when the vehicle is at a standstill or with the vehicle in motion only in the event of a failure in the hydraulic system. If exceptional use is made of the handbrake with the vehicle in motion, moderate traction is advisable in order not to cause locking of the rear end with consequent swerving of the vehicle.” Given the weight of a Ducato and the relatively small dimensions of the handbrake drums/shoes, using the handbrake to slow the vehicle other than in an emergency invites overheating. Basically, it’s a parking brake and, even then is unlikely to be a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 The design is not perfect but a lot better than many that i have seen over the years. I don't think that this was supposed to be used as a brake for a moving vehicle but the MOT stipulates that it must. Heavy vehicles that use the brake caliper rather than additional shoes tend to have more issues with stretched or snapped cables, along with them not being very good as parking brakes to start with. I do wonder how vehicles with electric/automatic parking brakes get away with not being able to function as an emergency brake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 euroserv - 2017-08-07 11:38 AM I do wonder how vehicles with electric/automatic parking brakes get away with not being able to function as an emergency brake? Nick, To the best of my knowledge they still do. You simply hold the switch in the 'On' position and it is applied as an emergency brake. Well at least those that I have tried do! Keith. PS I tried reading the Construction & Use Regs at the start of this thread and my best interpretation was that if the vehicle had a 'split' braking system then the 'Parking Brake' was not required to function as an emergency brake! That came as a surprise to me and if it is truly correct then why does the MOT test still include it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Keithl - 2017-08-07 12:09 PM PS I tried reading the Construction & Use Regs at the start of this thread and my best interpretation was that if the vehicle had a 'split' braking system then the 'Parking Brake' was not required to function as an emergency brake! That came as a surprise to me and if it is truly correct then why does the MOT test still include it? Possibly because there is no other effective way to test it's efficacy as a parking brake other than by measuring it's retardation? Possibly we are all getting the wrong impression that the parking brake is intended as anything more than a parking brake and maybe it could be potentially dangerous given it's design to use it as an emergency brake at anything more than walking pace? Progress eh? Doncha just luvit!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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