mikebeaches Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I am considering ordering a 2016 panel van conversion (6-metre) based on the X290. The standard vehicle comes with a 2 litre, 115hp engine, with manual gearbox on a chassis rated to 3,300kg. I want to specify a comformatic semi-automatic gearbox upgrade circa +£1,500. However, the engine needs to be upgraded to at least the 2.3 litre, 130 hp, to get the comfortmatic, which is fine. But as I understand from the dealer, the chassis must also be upgraded from 3,300kg to 3,500 kg to get a 2.3 litre, 130 hp engine. Cost of engine and chassis upgrade combined circa £1,000. Now that may be factually accurate as far as the French converter is concerned with their vans, but my question - is it normally necessary to upgrade the chassis from 3,300 kg to 3,500kg to get the 2.3 litre engine? Second question - in terms of residual re-sale value, is it worth paying circa £700 to specify a metallic colour (silver), as opposed to the standard colour of white? I'm personally fairly relaxed whether white or silver; with a possible VERY SLIGHT leaning towards silver - but reluctant to spend the extra unless it would enhance the re-sale value, or at least make it more attractive to a subsequent buyer. Would appreciate others views. Many thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Hi Mike, cannot comment whether it is factually correct to upgrade to 3500kgs but I do know there is a substantial increase in the weight of the 2.3 engine plus comfort attic gearbox so it would make sense to upgrade rather than lose your payload. For me, I would rather spend the extra on protecting the payload than on the choice of colour - although the silver grey would appeal to more people (IMO) come resale time. Good luck with the purchase. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Sorry, double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Just my two penn'th... You would be running a rare beast indeed if you had the 2.0 engine because these are not offered in Fiat's in the UK. Dealers would be scratching their heads over that one. The 2.3 is a vastly superior engine. You do not have to have 3500Kg to get the 2.3 engine as far as the factory is concerned but I can't see any reason not to do this anyway. There are very few mechanical differences between 3300Kg and 3500Kg but an increase in payload must surely be a good thing? In terms of colour... white with colourful graphics looks better than silver and opens up more possibilities for second hand panels if bad things happen. Just my pessimism! N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 For me, if looking for a vehicle, car or motorhome I would always want a metallic finish.So much easier to look after, as they, mostly, always look clean.For me White is a definite 'no no'. Absolutely hate 'garish' graphics'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 ...assuming a Fiat...(given you mention the comfortmatic) The 115 is not an option in the UK (here it is 110), and despite you mentioning a French converter, if it is to be RHD, you might find that 110 is what you get. Worth a check. The restriction on options will be down to the converter's ordering strategy. For the standard panel van, all the engine options are generally available across the range. See http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/CMSEN/Pdf/Ducato_Goods_Tech_Spec_nov14.pdf ...for the UK details and for something even more indicative (since it prices each of the combinations), the German price list, here: http://www.fiatprofessional.de/de/preisliste/290.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebeaches Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 David, Nick, Ray and Robin Thank you for all your valuable advice - very much appreciated. Just to confirm that according to the dealer's website the standard engine is 115 BHP. And although it is a French converter, it is a RHD I'm interested in ordering. But, out of curiosity, I may check further with the converter, concerning the standard engine. In view of your suggestions, I'll certainly opt for the upgraded 3,500 kg chassis. Oh, and concerning the graphics - they are actually quite modest, which appeals to me. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 For left-hand drive Ducato X290 vehicles a 2.0litre 115bhp motorhome (with manual gearbox only) is available, as are 130bhp or 150bhp 2.3litre motors (with a 6-speed gearbox as standard or optional ComfortMatic transmission). A 180bhp 3.0litre motor is also available with a 6-speed gearbox as standard or optional ComfortMatic transmission. The 2.0litre motor is not available for right-hand drive Ducato X290s (presumably because it won’t fit in a RHD engine compartment) and a 110bhp version of the 2.3litre powerplant is offered instead and with manual transmission only. You haven’t said which French converter is involved, but - for RHD UK-marketed panel vans - I note that Rapido just uses the 3500kg chassis. (Rapido’s website does mention the 3300kg chassis in relation to PVCs with the 115bhp motor, so I guess one might be able to choose that combination if one specifically wanted LHD.) Although (as Robinhood has pointed out) Ducato X290s with the 110bhp 2.3litre motor are available for commercial use in the UK, I’m not aware of any major motorhome manufacturer offering that powerplant here. Smaller converters (eg. Murvi) may offer the 110bhp engine as standard, but general policy seems to be to go for the 130bhp 2.3litre motor as the basic minimum. Where these ‘national’ variations could become important is if one were carrying out a price comparison. If one took the UK list-price of, say, a base-model RHD UK-specification Rapido V56 PVC and compared it with a base-model LHD French-specification V56, the latter vehicle would appear to be a lot cheaper. However the UK model would have the 3500kg chassis and the 130bhp motor which would be upgrades in France, and (very likely) a significantly higher conversion specification as well. (For example, the “UK Pack” for my Rapido 640 comprised a gas-oven, a heater upgrade, a different table and carpets. I chose to delete the UK Pack when I ordered the vehicle, reducing the price by £1000.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebeaches Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-10-06 2:18 PM For left-hand drive Ducato X290 vehicles a 2.0litre 115bhp motorhome (with manual gearbox only) is available, as are 130bhp or 150bhp 2.3litre motors (with a 6-speed gearbox as standard or optional ComfortMatic transmission). A 180bhp 3.0litre motor is also available with a 6-speed gearbox as standard or optional ComfortMatic transmission. The 2.0litre motor is not available for right-hand drive Ducato X290s (presumably because it won’t fit in a RHD engine compartment) and a 110bhp version of the 2.3litre powerplant is offered instead and with manual transmission only. You haven’t said which French converter is involved, but - for RHD UK-marketed panel vans - I note that Rapido just uses the 3500kg chassis. (Rapido’s website does mention the 3300kg chassis in relation to PVCs with the 115bhp motor, so I guess one might be able to choose that combination if one specifically wanted LHD.) Although (as Robinhood has pointed out) Ducato X290s with the 110bhp 2.3litre motor are available for commercial use in the UK, I’m not aware of any major motorhome manufacturer offering that powerplant here. Smaller converters (eg. Murvi) may offer the 110bhp engine as standard, but general policy seems to be to go for the 130bhp 2.3litre motor as the basic minimum. Where these ‘national’ variations could become important is if one were carrying out a price comparison. If one took the UK list-price of, say, a base-model RHD UK-specification Rapido V56 PVC and compared it with a base-model LHD French-specification V56, the latter vehicle would appear to be a lot cheaper. However the UK model would have the 3500kg chassis and the 130bhp motor which would be upgrades in France, and (very likely) a significantly higher conversion specification as well. (For example, the “UK Pack” for my Rapido 640 comprised a gas-oven, a heater upgrade, a different table and carpets. I chose to delete the UK Pack when I ordered the vehicle, reducing the price by £1000.) Thanks Derek According to a dealer, Rapido appear to have a 2016 RHD 2-litre PVC (3,300kg / 130 hp) already in stock in the UK: http://highbridgecaravans.co.uk/products/motorhomes/HCCQF22635/2016-rapido-van-v55 And others to order: http://highbridgecaravans.co.uk/products/motorhomes/HCCQF22639/2016-rapido-van-v56 And from the Rapido family they apparently have 2015 Campereve PVCs in stock with 2-litre engines 130 hp: http://highbridgecaravans.co.uk/products/motorhomes/HCCQF16860/2015-campereve-magellan-542 But the van I'm considering at the moment is the new budget Dreamer D58, also from Rapido: http://www.dreamer-van.fr/fourgon-dreamer-d58.php http://highbridgecaravans.co.uk/products/motorhomes/HCCQF22103/2016-dreamer-d58 Have also looked at a couple of similar fixed twin single layouts in sub-6 metre vans - Globecar Globestar 600L http://www.southwestmotorhomes.co.uk/motorhomes.asp?id=153 And the new Boxstar 600 Lifetime: http://www.knaus.de/en/camper-vans/boxstar/boxstar-600/layout-plans/600-lifetime.html They would all require at least the 2.3 litre 130 hp engine to get the comfortmatic gearbox. We've more or less ruled out the Globestar 600L because we think the bathroom is unworkable for us, having viewed it. And the Knaus is a bit more than we wanted to fork out, given we typically only spend around 60-70 nights on board each year for a couple of European trips, and one or two other short summer outings in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 ...I'm pretty sure you'll find all the "stock" vehicles described as 2 litre 130bhp are in fact the 2.3 litre 130bhp version. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Mike For the Euro 5 X250 Ducato range introduced in 2011 three engine sizes were made available. In left-hand drive one could have a 2.3litre motor with 130bhp or 150bhp output (Multijet 130 or Multijet 150) and 6-speed manual gearbox or ComfortMatic transmission, a 3.0litre motor (Multijet 180) with 180bhp and 6-speed manual gearbox or ComfortMatic transmission, or a 2.0litre motor (Multijet 115) with 115bhp and 5-SPEED manual gearbox. In right-hand drive the 2.0litre Multijet 115 motor was not available and a 110bhp version of the 2.3litre motor (Multijet 110) was offered as an alternative with a 6-speed manual gearbox and no ComfortMatic option. To the best of my knowledge this powerplant availability policy has not changed since the Ducato X290 range was released in 2014. My Rapido 640 came from Highbridge Caravans and I have their September 2014 Rapido price-list. Although my vehicle is LHD and, consequently, I might have been able to specify the 2.0litre motor if I had been daft enough to (as I know Rapido fitted the Multijet 115 as standard to LHD 640 models) the Highbridge price-list is obviously relevant to UK-marketed RHD vehicles. The Highbridge price-list defines the standard chassis/engine combination for each Rapido model and the standard powerplant is either the 2.3litre Multijet 130, or the 2.3litre Multijet 150 for the biggest Rapido designs. As I would anticipate, no mention is made of the 2.0litre Multijet 115 or the 2.3litre Multijet 110 motors. The price-list shows the options available for 2015 Rapido “Vans” and (it would appear) the V55 and V56 models had a 3300kg chassis as standard, while the longer V66 standardised on the 3500kg chassis. Opting for the 2.3litre Multijet 150 or the 3.0litre Multijet 180 for a V55 or V56 model evidently automatically resulted in a chassis ‘upgrade’ to 3500kg. It’s possible that Rapido has standardised on the 3500kg chassis for 2016 “Vans”, but I’m near certain that the motor sizes available in RHD will not have changed. As Robinhood mentions, when Highbridge adverts show a RHD Ducato-based vehicle with 130bhp motor, the powerplant must be the Multijet 130 and 2.3litre capacity not 2.0litre. This link is to a July 2015 Murvi price-list http://www.murvi.co.uk/default/assets/File/Murvi%20price%20list%20July%202015(1).pdf For Ducato-based panel-van conversions it refers to the 3 versions (Multijet 110, 130 and 150) of the 2.3 litre motor and to the 3.0litre Multijet 180 engine. There’s no mention of a 2.0litre motor and (as you are aware) Comfortmatic transmission is only available with Multijet 130, 150 or 180 powerplants. I understand (from French motorhome magazines) that the Dreamer range has the Multijet 115 2.0litre motor as standard (with the Multijet 130 as an option), but that’s in LHD format. I don’t know off-hand what the specification would be for 2016 RHD UK-marketed Dreamers. The above is a tad academic in your case, as you want ComfortMatic transmission and that’s only available on Ducato X290s with Multijet 130, 150 or 180 motors, and not possible with the 2.0litre or Multijet 110 2.3litre engines. But it should show that care needs to be taken when it comes to dealer (or even motorhome manufacturer) advertising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-10-07 9:08 AM It’s possible that Rapido has standardised on the 3500kg chassis for 2016 “Vans”, ..... ...the current version of the Rapido website carries the information that, for the 'Vans', the 3.3t chassis is used only in conjunction with the 115bhp (2.0 litre) engine, and that the other engine options are all on 3.5t chassis. Even on the UK portion of the site, it is silent on the possibility of a 110bhp 2.3 litre engine being fitted (which one could conjecture, if it were available,would come as standard with a 3.3t chassis) but, if there is any consistency, it would seem likely that a 130bhp engine (with which you would expect most UK market 'Vans' to be built) would now come as standard with a 3.5t chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebeaches Posted October 7, 2015 Author Share Posted October 7, 2015 Robinhood - 2015-10-06 8:34 PM ...I'm pretty sure you'll find all the "stock" vehicles described as 2 litre 130bhp are in fact the 2.3 litre 130bhp version. ;-) I suspect you are right. Strange really ...I'll say no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebeaches Posted October 7, 2015 Author Share Posted October 7, 2015 Derek and Robinhood Thanks for your additional contributions. No doubt the Continental panel van converters (and Rapido is not alone, the Knaus range is similar) want to have the most competitive lead-in price possible, hence the use of 2 litre 115hp engine and 3.3T chassis on their entry models. But from what you have both indicated, these will not be available in RHD in the UK market. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-10-06 10:07 AM metallic finish.So much easier to look after,. .. until you have to touch the paintwork up. If you tried spraying metallic paint would see why it costs more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Peter James - 2015-10-07 2:09 PM Rayjsj - 2015-10-06 10:07 AM metallic finish.So much easier to look after,. .. until you have to touch the paintwork up. If you tried spraying metallic paint would see why it costs more. Have you ever tried touching up a White cab ? Even with the 'correct shade of white' White Paint fades as well. metallic stays looking nicer,for longer. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Having looked further, I don’t think there’s actually been any change of chassis specification between 2015 and 2016 model-year Rapido “Vans”. The 2015 English-language brochure for the “Van” range can be read here http://en.calameo.com/read/0003556255f8b34898540 and the 3300kg chassis was said to be employed only on models with the ’standard’ MultiJet 115 2.0litre motor. I believe Rapido’s statement in that brochure that the gearbox for the MJ 115 is a “Manual 6” is wrong. The Ducato X250 with the MJ 115 powerplant had a 5-speed manual transmission and that combination was definitely carried over to the X290 as mentioned in this April 2014 French article. http://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/la-generation-2014-des-fiat-ducato-citroen-jumper-et-peugeot-boxer-arrive-4084380.html This link to the German-language technical specification of Hobby’s 2016 “Vantana” range http://www.hobby-caravan.de/fileadmin/user_upload/01-KASTENWAGEN/2016/vantana/katalog-vantana-d.pdf shows the 4 motorisations available for LHD Ducatos. The MJ 115 is described as having a 5-speed manual gearbox, so I don’t believe anything has altered in that respect. The English-language equivalent for RHD Vantanas shows just the MJ 130, 150 and 180 motors being available. http://www.hobby-caravan.de/fileadmin/user_upload/01-KASTENWAGEN/2016/katalog-vantana-en.pdf The majority of Continental European motorhome manufacturers currently producing Ducato-based panel-van conversions standardise on the MJ 115 motor in order (as Mike says) to offer the cheapest entry-level price, and because this is possible with LHD Ducatos. (I came across a caveat in Fiat’s documentation for the Euro 5 X250 Ducato saying specifically that the the MJ 115 motor was not available for RHD versions.) That the MJ 110 2.3litre motor has not been offered for RHD Ducato-based motorhomes by the ‘main players’ may be because a bargain-basement price is not so critical in the UK and/or that the inability to opt for ComfortMatic for that powerplant makes it more sensible to set the MJ 130 as the minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-10-07 2:14 PM Have you ever tried touching up a White cab ? Even with the 'correct shade of white' White Paint fades as well. . Yes - you restore a base colour like white with rubbing compound before touching up. You can't do that with metallic because it forms 2 layers - base (metallic)beneath a clear layer. So you can never get a match when you touch up part of a panel - think about it. Around the edges you get the original base layer, then the clear layer, then the touch up base layer, then the touch up clear layer. Matching is impossible - you have to respray the whole panel. Another complication is you have to be spraying at the same angle/distance as the original sprayer to get close to the same finish. Why do you think metallic costs more? (and creates far more dissatisfied customers after a respray) There are other reasons too why most vans and motorhomes are white. (and therefore the easiest to get body panels for) White has been shown to be the most visible, hence the safest, on the road. White also reflects heat in the hot sun, and is slow to give up heat in the cold weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebeaches Posted October 7, 2015 Author Share Posted October 7, 2015 Peter James - 2015-10-07 3:15 PM There are other reasons too why most vans and motorhomes are white. (and therefore the easiest to get body panels for) White has been shown to be the most visible, hence the safest, on the road. White also reflects heat in the hot sun, and is slow to give up heat in the cold weather. I agree there are a number of positives for having white rather than a metallic colour, including the points you highlighted: safety, cooler, and repairs if required. I believe there is another aspect to consider. In recent years white vehicles (I'm thinking cars, in particular) have become more 'fashionable' with younger buyers. But is that the same for the typically more mature motorhomer? On the other hand, white is much harder to keep clean. Silver is a very forgiving colour in that regard. So the jury is still out for me, but at the end of the day I'll probably opt for metallic... on strict instruction from SWMBO. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 If you are ordering a vehicle from the factory, you might want to specify some cunningly convenient options that (in the great scheme of things) represent decent value..... 033 Oil level indicator. £35 Nice to know how much oil you have each time you start the engine! 077 Twin leaf suspension £90 If you are running heavy most of the time this gives you a little lift and a lot more stability, albeit with a slightly firmer ride. Would cost 5x this much to add later! 188 Saddle head restraints. £30 Look lovely. 416 Cruise control £160 Very handy on long drives and helps avoid speeding fines! 4YV Third (remote) key £90 Hell of a lot cheaper than getting one made later! 6ZQ Central glovebox £50 Instead of the bottle holder rubbish that is now standard. 7BZ DAB Radio. £70 You only get an FM radio with bluetooth and USB inputs these days, add DAB for not much. It's great. There are options for a larger screen, Navigation and CD players too. 989 Smoking Kit £20 Adds a second lighter/charger point on the dash. Very useful. These are Fiat UK prices and they should be similar to Europe. Don't pay more than this because the dealer will be getting the same discount on the options as he gets on the vehicle; ie at least 35% off, probably 40+! Best of luck. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebeaches Posted October 7, 2015 Author Share Posted October 7, 2015 Great stuff Nick - thanks for the info!! I'll certainly inquire about some of those options (a few are already included the PVC package). Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Mike As Nick says at the beginning of his posting, it should certainly be possible to purchase a Ducato panel-van tailored to a buyer’s exact requirements by picking and mixings the options shown in Fiat’s price-list if the buyer is ordering the van directly from Fiat as Nick does. It should also be possible for a buyer to specify what options he/she would like when the van is to be converted into a motorhome by a small, low volume, converter (eg. Murvi) that will only order a chassis when a buyer has committed to purchasing the converted vehicle. Ordering a PVC from a mass-producer like Rapido is quite another matter as pricing of the end-product does not separate the base-vehicle from the conversion. As you’ve highlighted, some of the options Nick has mentioned will either be included in the standard specification (eg. Rapido standardises on the 6ZQ glovebox option) or several options may be ‘packaged’ together at an overall price that’s less than specifying the options individually. The Highbridge price-list for a UK-specification 2015 model-year Rapido V55/V56/V66 reveals that the chassis options offered were relatively limited. A passenger airbag, cruise-control, cab seasts with twin arm-rests, painted front bumper, gas-bottle change-over device and Pioneer CD/MP3 radio + speakers were combined into a £249 package. Reversing sensors (£210), 16” alloy wheels (£580) and ESP with Traction+ (£440) could be chosen, as could ComfortMatic transmission and/or engine upgrades to the MJ 150 or MJ 180 motors. And that was it - there was no indication that anything on Fiat’s options list that was outside Rapido’s standard specification for the panel-van chassis and not on Rapido’s chassis options list could be ordered by a buyer. For example, Rapido chose to fit a Pioneer cab radio (£290 if ndividually specified, or included in the “Van Pack") and, if one chose not to have this you could not opt for different make of radio. I expect Highbridge would have been prepared to install a different unit if a Rapido Van buyer wanted this, but it would have been a retro-fit not part of the order placed with Rapido. I think all large motorhome converters have a similar policy - if it’s not on the converter’s price-list a buyer can’t have it - so it would be interesting to learn how you fare with your inquiries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebeaches Posted October 8, 2015 Author Share Posted October 8, 2015 Derek, I believe you're absolutely right - it's likely there will be limited Fiat options that can be specified on a Rapido/Dreamer converted van. And probably likewise for many of the other larger converters, as you suggest. I've now received a 2016 Dreamer price list from another UK dealer that suggests 'reversing radar' might be available as a chassis option from Fiat @ £231 inc vat, which would certainly be of interest to me. And the point you make about keeping it simple on the part of the converter applies to the conversion as well, I reckon. Eg The standard van has a Truma C4 gas combi space/water heating set up. There is an option to upgrade to a Truma C6 EH gas & electric combi space/water heating boiler. Now Truma also make a Truma C4 EH gas/electric boiler, and I asked if that was a possibility - but the response was no, only the C4 or C6 EH; which I can sort of understand and is fair enough. Anyway, all interesting stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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