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E.U. Travel restrictions.
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userjohnfromnorfolk
Posted: 27 July 2020 11:24 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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KAM - 2020-07-27 10:44 AM

I agree it is simple enough for motorhomers wanting to do long stints away. The rule is simply that you are limited to 90 days within Schengen in the last 180 days. But for peace of mind and for planning ahead, or for someone who is likely to do multiple shorter trips, then the calculator should be used, its very simple, it adds up your days and your limits. I have used it to review previous years trips and it can produce some surprising results!


Yes I agree about shorter trips.
I've had a play around with the calculator and also been unpleasantly surprised by the results.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 27 July 2020 11:27 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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Deneb - 2020-07-27 9:54 AM
Brian Kirby - 2020-07-26 11:40 AM
It is that new 90 days period (the new "window") that opens after an absence of an uninterrupted 90 days (the mechanism that triggers it) that I was trying to encapsulate by referring to it as the clock resetting.
Hope the above is a bit clearer.

I understood what you were saying, but just felt that a reader not understanding the implications of a continuously rolling 180 day period may not appreciate how it actually works. The wording on the website could also be clearer, but I suspect that's a result of translation by the author.
To be precise, whilst I realise that an uninterrupted period of 90 days out of the zone presents the opportunity to spend a cumulative 90 days within the zone going forward, I wouldn't describe it as a reset or a clean sheet, particularly if the preceding 90 days outside of the zone was preceded by a continuous period of 90 days within it. In those very specific circumstances, which I appreciate are unlikely to occur in practice unless someone is deliberately maximising their "allowance" to the fullest opportunity, the "clock" will continue to show that 90 days have been spent within the zone in the previous 180 days going forward. It's just that for each subsequent day spent within the zone, a day drops off at the 180th day preceding it, and the cumulative total remains constant at 90/180 for the next 90 days, as each new day rolls on.
So the "sheet" isn't clean. It's fully subscribed, but in a state that will remain constant for the next 90 days.
Semantics, I know

Yes, it is a surprisingly difficult concept to capture in words. My mistake was that in trying to make the description as simple as possible, my choice of phrases veered away from strict accuracy. But hopefully, it is as clear now as it can be made!

That an absence from Schengen for 90 clear days permits a further 90 "Schengen days" to be enjoyed is not, as you say, that clearly explained, and is potentially confusing.

FWIW, I still find it a bit counter-intuitive that if, on day 1 of any trip following the first, when one has previously spent 90 days in Schengen and then a further 90 days out, one can legally enter for a further 90 days, while trailing a record of 90 days within the preceding 180 days in Schengen!

I "know" it means one can coast happily along followed, day by day, as each of the previous 90 drops off, by a constant trail of a legal 90 days in - but that still makes me feel uneasy! What could possibly go wrong, we've endlessly got a day in hand?!
usermel wood
Posted: 29 July 2020 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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hallii - 2020-07-24 10:27 AM

I am certainly not worried about staying to long

H


Why would you be willing to break the rules?

Also I think the comments on this thread regarding lack of insurance after 90 days are very valid.
Would you also be unworried about that?
userDeneb
Posted: 29 July 2020 11:40 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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Brian Kirby - 2020-07-27 11:27 AM

I "know" it means one can coast happily along followed, day by day, as each of the previous 90 drops off, by a constant trail of a legal 90 days in - but that still makes me feel uneasy! What could possibly go wrong, we've endlessly got a day in hand?!


If you are intending to use the absolute maximum allowance as described, the only (but potentially very large) downside that I can see is having absolutely no room for manoeuvre in the event of a delay or other incident out of your control, right at the end of your trip. I'm not sure that I'd be happy putting myself in that position either. Sod's Law, and all that
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 29 July 2020 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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Deneb - 2020-07-29 11:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2020-07-27 11:27 AM
I "know" it means one can coast happily along followed, day by day, as each of the previous 90 drops off, by a constant trail of a legal 90 days in - but that still makes me feel uneasy! What could possibly go wrong, we've endlessly got a day in hand?!


If you are intending to use the absolute maximum allowance as described, the only (but potentially very large) downside that I can see is having absolutely no room for manoeuvre in the event of a delay or other incident out of your control, right at the end of your trip. I'm not sure that I'd be happy putting myself in that position either. Sod's Law, and all that

Yes, I know! Our particular problem, which I suspect is common to quite a few others, is that we usually do two trips a year, one in spring, and one in autumn.

We go after summer time begins, and return before it ends. So the spring trip, which is invariably the longest, is from early-ish April to mid-ish June, and is usually between 70 and 80 days duration. The autumn trips usually begin late August/early September, and end about the third week in October - because that's when the weather usually goes manky - and last somewhere between 40 and 70 days. Combined total: 110 - 150 days, so well over 90 days!

If we spend 80 days in Schengen in spring, we'd have 10 days spare. But, as I understand the rules, although we could go again in autumn, we would be limited to just those 10 days, because if one re-enters within one's 180 days, one is restricted to a total of 90 days. One may not stay in Schengen beyond 90 days, and to trigger a new allocation of 90 days, one has to leave for 90 days. So, shorter spring and/or autumn trips will be necessary, or we have to do one trip in Schengen, and one out.
userBarryd999
Posted: 29 July 2020 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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Our trips or "Adventures" I like to call them are normally one big trip away and usually 4-6 months

I have just been trying to work out how we could achieve that under the new rules as a third country. I went through the list of European countries discussed on page one that are not in Schengen.

To be honest the only one that appeals is Croatia. I might give Bulgaria a go but its a bit of a complicated hike to get there.

Our trips usually start as soon in the summer as we can get away and end late Autumn.

One train of thought was to do two and a half months in Schengen (France, Italy etc) then end up in Croatia for the back end (September) where I believe we can stay 90 days, stay there until say October then spend two weeks getting home.

Not ideal but none of the other countries appeal. Dont fancy Morocco either really.

Edited by Barryd999 2020-07-29 1:51 PM
userCattwg
Posted: 29 July 2020 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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Wortho - 2020-07-26 10:04 AM
Australia has a bilateral agreement with Denmark and others where you can spend 90 days in another Schengen country without it affecting your 90 days in another.


This arrangement mentioned by Wortho is not one I’d not heard of before. If our government could negotiate a similar deal then, on the face of it, it would go a long way towards solving the “Schengen Problem”
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userKAM
Posted: 29 July 2020 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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For info a campaign '180 days Visa free' was launched earlier this year, see https://sites.google.com/view/180daysvisafree/home

This was really inspired by ski season/second home owner buddies but the concerns are similar to those of you long stay motorhomers except more so because at least motorhomes are mobile! Some of the info on the site may be of interest (eg pages Schengen 90/180 and proposal 180/360) but unfortunately the campaign seems to have got nowhere.

I am still unsure whether this change is a definite or could still be subject to change in negotiations, but I suspect not, I fear it is a definite by default, since it is such a tiny issue compared with everything else, and we will just have to hope it gets addressed in the future.

It's a first world problem of course and in the meantime we will just have to adapt accordingly. All the advice is to keep some flexibility over return date plans in case of unforeseen circumstances, particularly for flight or ferry bookings. Common sense would suggest leaving a week or so leeway - but common sense re. travel seems in short supply at the moment!
userDeneb
Posted: 29 July 2020 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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I seem to recall the Guy Verhofstadt proposing a scheme that would have allowed Britains to avoid the Schengen restriction, at the time Britain first gave notice that we would be leaving the EU. It required a minimum level of support from each member state, and although put to a vote not a single EU country managed to raise sufficient support to move forward with the proposal, let alone the bloc as a whole.
userBarryd999
Posted: 29 July 2020 6:39 PM
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Deneb - 2020-07-29 6:20 PM

I seem to recall the Guy Verhofstadt proposing a scheme that would have allowed Britains to avoid the Schengen restriction, at the time Britain first gave notice that we would be leaving the EU. It required a minimum level of support from each member state, and although put to a vote not a single EU country managed to raise sufficient support to move forward with the proposal, let alone the bloc as a whole.


I think it was Charles Goerens that originally put it forward backed up by Guy who is loathed by the Brexiteers but is actually a real ally to us Brits. He loves us. I wrote to them both back in 2016 regarding this and did get a response.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/09/eu-citizenship-proposal-could-guarantee-rights-in-europe-after-brexit

The argument is that it should not be possible to remove someones citizenship because their country decides to leave the Union. Our citizenship was granted in 1993 and since then we have been able to live, work, travel as much as we like across the EU.

However to some "Free movement of people" means something much less positive sadly. Its something many of them wont miss until its gone and they encounter the consequences both here and abroad. I Cant see how these proposals could ever fly though without it being a two way street.

Its bonkers. Totally bonkers.
userDeneb
Posted: 30 July 2020 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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Barryd999 - 2020-07-29 6:39 PM

Its bonkers. Totally bonkers.


I agree completely. I would gladly exchange my UK passport for an "EU" passport at the drop of a hat. Unfortunately trying to obtain citizenship of another member state is a non-starter as Mrs D won't even consider relocating within the UK, let alone abroad
userBarryd999
Posted: 30 July 2020 8:23 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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Deneb - 2020-07-30 8:19 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-29 6:39 PM

Its bonkers. Totally bonkers.


I agree completely. I would gladly exchange my UK passport for an "EU" passport at the drop of a hat. Unfortunately trying to obtain citizenship of another member state is a non-starter as Mrs D won't even consider relocating within the UK, let alone abroad


A few years ago we came close to buying in France and moving there. Seeing how a lot of my Friends (Well the not so wealthy ones) that live out there have suffered as a result of just the vote maybe we dodged a bullet in some respect but are now trapped here in another. Their future is still uncertain.

The only hope now is a change of government in four years time and a change of heart by the country and rejoining at some point.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 30 July 2020 7:09 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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Deneb - 2020-07-30 8:19 AM
Barryd999 - 2020-07-29 6:39 PM
Its bonkers. Totally bonkers.

I agree completely. I would gladly exchange my UK passport for an "EU" passport at the drop of a hat. Unfortunately trying to obtain citizenship of another member state is a non-starter as Mrs D won't even consider relocating within the UK, let alone abroad

Have you investigated whether either of you has provable Irish ancestry? I gather the Irish government is open to granting Brits with some Irish descent ('though I have no idea what the rules are) Irish nationality, even if not resident or property owning. Sadly, doesn't affect us, though a couple of friends have qualified because they have Irish wives. One is actually from NI, but that was good enough!
userBarryd999
Posted: 30 July 2020 8:58 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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Brian Kirby - 2020-07-30 7:09 PM

Deneb - 2020-07-30 8:19 AM
Barryd999 - 2020-07-29 6:39 PM
Its bonkers. Totally bonkers.

I agree completely. I would gladly exchange my UK passport for an "EU" passport at the drop of a hat. Unfortunately trying to obtain citizenship of another member state is a non-starter as Mrs D won't even consider relocating within the UK, let alone abroad

Have you investigated whether either of you has provable Irish ancestry? I gather the Irish government is open to granting Brits with some Irish descent ('though I have no idea what the rules are) Irish nationality, even if not resident or property owning. Sadly, doesn't affect us, though a couple of friends have qualified because they have Irish wives. One is actually from NI, but that was good enough!


Nah, no chance. My ancestors were English Aristocracy and Highwaymen! True Dat!
userDeneb
Posted: 30 July 2020 9:36 PM
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Brian Kirby - 2020-07-30 7:09 PM

Have you investigated whether either of you has provable Irish ancestry? I gather the Irish government is open to granting Brits with some Irish descent ('though I have no idea what the rules are) Irish nationality, even if not resident or property owning. Sadly, doesn't affect us, though a couple of friends have qualified because they have Irish wives. One is actually from NI, but that was good enough!


The closest I've got is a great uncle with an Irish surname. There's no record of him having been born in the UK but whether he was from Ireland I haven't been able to determine. He married into the family so not a direct descendant which I doubt would count for much anyway.
userteccer1234
Posted: 31 July 2020 12:12 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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my wife's mother and grandmother lived in Galway so we got the BMD certificates of both and with the money £275, sent it off to the foreign births registry office in Ireland, we got a receipt and aknowledgment from the office but now because of the virus the office is not processing anything as they are working on benifits to the out of work, recently we got an email saying it will take at least 1 year before processing starts again, so we'll have to wait for the certificate before we send that off to get an irish passport another 6 months for that as well.
ho hum, the result of people voting to leave
userFifo
Posted: 31 July 2020 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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I wrote to both the UK Foreign Office and the Spanish Embassy to ask if a visa would be introduced for those wishing to spend over 3 months in Spain who were not seeking employment etc. Clearly things are in flux at the moment and the advice is “ wait and see”. I have hopes that it will happen though. Current visas are for a variety of reasons - business, education and so on- but none specific for long stay holidays.

The more of us who write to both the Embassy, in London, and the FO then possibly it will focus minds - ?

Edited by Fifo 2020-07-31 8:10 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 31 July 2020 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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Fifo - 2020-07-31 8:09 AM
I wrote to both the UK Foreign Office and the Spanish Embassy to ask if a visa would be introduced for those wishing to spend over 3 months in Spain who were not seeking employment etc. Clearly things are in flux at the moment and the advice is “ wait and see”. I have hopes that it will happen though. Current visas are for a variety of reasons - business, education and so on- but none specific for long stay holidays.
The more of us who write to both the Embassy, in London, and the FO then possibly it will focus minds - ?

If you look on the ETIAS website there is a section on third country citizen visas.

Various flavours are available ('though obviously not for us while we remain in transition), but one thing I seem to remember was a general warning about the validity of the visas within the various Schengen states. The visas are issued by the individual states, but are not all are recognised by all states.

If you were intending to drive through France into Spain, for example, it is possible that the Spanish visa might not be recognised in France, which would cause problems at the French border, especially when exiting.

OTOH, I believe the French extended stay visa is accepted in all other states, which would be accepted in Spain, but would also allow you to tour more widely, should you so choose. Worth checking before getting too far down the road, I think.
userCattwg
Posted: 31 July 2020 5:35 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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The phrase that comes to mind amidst all the talk of 90/180 days, EHICs etc. is “unintended consequences”. I just hope there aren’t too many more negative consequences to be encounteerd over the coming months and years.
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userDeneb
Posted: 31 July 2020 8:08 PM
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What unintended consequences? Surely anyone who wanted to leave the EU would have been aware that it meant foregoing all the privileges of membership? Or are you suggesting that they didn't realise what they were voting for?

That could never happen, could it?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 1 August 2020 11:35 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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Deneb - 2020-07-31 8:08 PM
What unintended consequences? Surely anyone who wanted to leave the EU would have been aware that it meant foregoing all the privileges of membership? Or are you suggesting that they didn't realise what they were voting for?
That could never happen, could it?

Oh no it couldn't!
userpelmetman
Posted: 1 August 2020 11:40 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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Deneb - 2020-07-31 8:08 PM

What unintended consequences? Surely anyone who wanted to leave the EU would have been aware that it meant foregoing all the privileges of membership? Or are you suggesting that they didn't realise what they were voting for?

That could never happen, could it?


How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad? .........

I do, and the fact that we will have to travel back for Christmas, instead of doing it out of choice is not much of a consequence in my book ..........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 1 August 2020 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:40 AM...………...
How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad? .........
I do, and the fact that we will have to travel back for Christmas, instead of doing it out of choice is not much of a consequence in my book ..........

We do, or at least we have up until now. But how will you fit in your 90 days, before Christmas, after Christmas, or either side of Christmas?
userBarryd999
Posted: 1 August 2020 12:17 PM
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pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:40 AM

Deneb - 2020-07-31 8:08 PM

What unintended consequences? Surely anyone who wanted to leave the EU would have been aware that it meant foregoing all the privileges of membership? Or are you suggesting that they didn't realise what they were voting for?

That could never happen, could it?


How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad? .........

I do, and the fact that we will have to travel back for Christmas, instead of doing it out of choice is not much of a consequence in my book ..........



Thats funny. You have been telling us for years you had it all sorted. Some kind of note from the Mayor or something. A Pardron was it? That not gonna work then? Oh dear.

Loads of people spend more than 90 days on mainland Europe within the motorhome community myself included. Always a long single trip for me but many like to do two or three stints which as we have seen is going to be problematic.
userDeneb
Posted: 1 August 2020 12:27 PM
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pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:40 AM

How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad? .........



But that's not the only consequence that was easily foreseen, is it?

Loss of entitlement to EHIC and possible reintroduction of roaming charges are just two that will affect visitors, no matter how long or short your intended stay.

There are others affecting businesses, for example.

And I have many times bought products from EU suppliers more cheaply than I could purchase them for here, even factoring in delivery charges. Being outside of the EU, that is unlikely to continue from next year with the imposition of additional duties.

I expect travel insurance costs will rise to cover the additional liability previously recoverable through the EHIC scheme, and there may possibly be additional restrictions on cover too.

We received an invoice for nearly 900 euros last year solely for ambulance attendance and conveyance in The Netherlands. It arose because I had to make my own way to the hospital and find somewhere to park a MH when my wife was taken there, and as I had the EHIC cards in my possession, she was not able to produce hers until after the ambulance crew had left.

All easily resolvable by email, but I hate to think how much the hospital charges would have been on top, all of which will fall to private insurance without EHIC.
userFifo
Posted: 1 August 2020 1:04 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 
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We generally do 5+months abroad: 3 from December to March and then a month each in Spring and Autumn.

We’ve booked our ferries for winter and, Covid willing, expect to travel then and next Spring. I have everything crossed that a solution - universal visa ?- will be found. Extra Insurance, roaming charges and etc will have to be found from savings. I just can’t see elderly motorhomers being imprisioned, deported, fined heavily or refused entry for the heinous crime of wanting to travel, and spend money in the countries they travel to. I hope this rosy view of 2021 onwards doesn’t crumble but it is all that is keeping me going at the moment.

I suspect that the huge majority who voted for the mess we are in now spend 2 weeks abroad per year and it just never occurred to them that there would be travel problems for others....or any other problems !
userfesspark
Posted: 1 August 2020 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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MY WIFE AND I HAVE BEEN WINTERING IN SPAIN AND PORTUGAL EVER YEAR SINCE 1982 AS I SOLD UP AND RETIRED TO THE SOUTH OF ENGLAND, WE WOULD RATHER CUT OUR HOLIDAY TO 90 DAYS THAN LET THESE ROBBING EUROPEANS BLEED US ANY LONGER. fesspark
userCattwg
Posted: 1 August 2020 2:11 PM
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How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad?


We do!
We’ve been going to Europe for more than 90 days a year for over 15 years. Usually an extended trip in the spring and another in the autumn. Often with a package holiday or cruise over Christmas. We are going to have to choose our dates carefully after January.

Without exaggeration, I know hundreds of people who regularly spend the autumn and winter in Spain – anything up to 6 months. Some of them live in their motorhome or caravan; hence 5 or 6 months in the comparative warm of Spain and the remainder of the year in Britain. Unless a solution to the 90/180 days rule can be found or negotiated, they are going to have reorganise their lives.
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userarthur49
Posted: 1 August 2020 2:19 PM
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fesspark - 2020-08-01 1:22 PM

MY WIFE AND I HAVE BEEN WINTERING IN SPAIN AND PORTUGAL EVER YEAR SINCE 1982 AS I SOLD UP AND RETIRED TO THE SOUTH OF ENGLAND, WE WOULD RATHER CUT OUR HOLIDAY TO 90 DAYS THAN LET THESE ROBBING EUROPEANS BLEED US ANY LONGER. fesspark


It doesn't matter what side of the leave/remain debate people are/were on, but shouting abuse in capital letters is puerile behaviour....

Edited by arthur49 2020-08-01 2:21 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 1 August 2020 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: E.U. Travel restrictions.
 


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Fifo - 2020-08-01 1:04 PM.................. I just can’t see elderly motorhomers being imprisioned, deported, fined heavily or refused entry for the heinous crime of wanting to travel, and spend money in the countries they travel to. I hope this rosy view of 2021 onwards doesn’t crumble but it is all that is keeping me going at the moment...……………….!

I wish you well with that! But, can you think of any other law that is waived on the basis that the offender is elderly and has a motor caravan and wants to travel in foreign lands and spend money? The actual penalties do not, as I understand it, extend to imprisonment. Just warnings for accidental minor infringements, fines, which can be quite severe for greater, and especially deliberate infringements, and for serial offences, banning from entry. Like it or not, it has to be taken seriously if you want to continue visiting without penalty.

These laws already exist, and have been applied to other third country visitors to the EU for years. It is just that through our membership of the EU we haven't been subject to them.

I can't see much likelihood of the 26 Schengen states, or the remaining non-Schengen EU states, negotiating among themselves to agree special measures for UK citizens who were never part of Schengen in the first place.

We aren't banned, we have simply excluded ourselves from the benefit of privileges we previously enjoyed, and will now become subject to the laws for third countries that we agreed while members.
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