E.U. Travel restrictions.

[johnfromnorfolk]

That old chestnut again!

As we approach the end of the year and start planning our 2021 trips (Covid permitting) and freedom of movement within the E.U. ending

Is anyone actually aware of how the 90 day rules regarding travel to Schengen E.U. countries will be applied.

 

[hallii]

Those of us who can remember the days before the EU still went abroad, I can't remember anyone ever checking how long we had been away. A wave of the passport got us through French, Belgian, German, Spanish and even Swiss borders. I don't think any EU country will get tough on the rules regarding how long you stay. Why would they harass those who are bringing tourist € to spend with them.

 

We are still PART of Europe, we have simply left the EU.

 

I doubt very much if the average French border policeman will bother to do the calculation regarding how long you have been there, They have more important things to do.

 

I am certainly not worried about staying to long :-)

 

H

[mtravel]

hallii - 2020-07-24 10:27 AM

 

I doubt very much if the average French border policeman will bother to do the calculation regarding how long you have been there, They have more important things to do.

 

I am certainly not worried about staying to long :-)

 

H

 

I wouldn't be so sure about it.

If the UK will impose a visa, I don't see why the EU should not do the same with its citizens.

Your passports will show the date of entry into the EU.

Calculating your stay is easy even for a flic. To whom perhaps the boss ask to check yellow plates (not Dutch of course).

 

Your license could very likely intrigue any European policeman more than you think.

After the period allowed, I would not be surprised that before being deported you will have to spend a few days jailed.

Someone says that in some European countries they are not particularly comfortable.

 

Max

[Barryd999]

hallii - 2020-07-24 10:27 AM

 

Those of us who can remember the days before the EU still went abroad, I can't remember anyone ever checking how long we had been away. A wave of the passport got us through French, Belgian, German, Spanish and even Swiss borders. I don't think any EU country will get tough on the rules regarding how long you stay. Why would they harass those who are bringing tourist € to spend with them.

 

We are still PART of Europe, we have simply left the EU.

 

I doubt very much if the average French border policeman will bother to do the calculation regarding how long you have been there, They have more important things to do.

 

I am certainly not worried about staying to long :-)

 

H

 

I did fair bit of research on this during the "Brexit wars" and things have moved on a bit since the days of waving your passport. Its all electronic now and a new improved Schengen database went online not that long ago. I looked up a lot of travelling sites for none EU countries and it turned out a fair few people were looking at ways to get around the 90 day limit but nobody had found a way of doing it and many overstayers were fined regularly and they were big fines as well.

 

The issue will not be while you are within Europe although with increased border security right now it could be but you will be electronically recorded on entry so when you come to leave they are going to know exactly how long you have been in Schengen and thats when you might come unstuck.

 

Its a big blow for us as our trips are frequently up to six months but I wont be flouting the rules unless it turns out they really dont care which seems doubtful to me, especially if it all goes extremely badly. I wonder about stuff like insurance, breakdown cover as well. Will they be valid for more than 90 days? Why would they be?

[johnfromnorfolk]

If you look on the Government website it clearly states that we will be restricted to 90 days in a 180 period.

Does anyone know how he 90 day period works.

Our passports will be stamped on arrival at a E.U. entry point with the date and will be checked when leaving.

Those overstaying risk being fined and deported.

[Brian Kirby]

You may find this helpful: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/visa-calculator

 

In principle, however, how it seems this works is as follows:

 

As I understand it, the 90 days in 180 days applies to all the countries in the Schengen zone (which does not coincide with countries in the EU, some EU members are not in Schengen, and some non-EU members are).

 

1) The first time you enter Schengen (irrespective of the Schengen state at which you enter) after 1 January 2021, your passport will be date and time recorded in, and a 180 day window will open, within which you can spend a maximum of 90 days in Schengen. The 90 days can be spent over as many trips as you choose, subject to the total duration of all trips not exceeding 90 days within any 180 day period.

 

2) Each time you leave Schengen (irrespective of the Schengen state from which you leave) your passport will be date and time recorded out, and the total number of days you have spent in Schengen during the previous 180 days will be calculated. If that exceeds 90 days, various penalties ranging from warnings, through fines, to banning, will apply.

 

3) It is important that your passport is recorded out each time you leave Schengen, particularly if leaving into another EU state that is not in Schengen, and is recorded back in again if you will transit a Schengen state en-route to, for example, a Channel port, otherwise you will be assumed to have remained within Schengen for the entire duration!

 

4) After your first trip, if/when you enter Schengen again, the number of days you have spent in Schengen during the previous 180 days will be calculated - to establish your remaining entitlement.

 

5) Once you have used up your 90days you cannot re-enter Schengen until you have accumulated sufficient time for a new trip during the previous the 180 days. If, having left Schengen, you stay out for 90 continuous days or more, a new 180 day window will open as in 1) above, and off you go again.

 

Several short trips per year should not cause problems, but the planning of longer trips, particularly if spring and autumn, will require some juggling because of the need to stay out of Schengen for 90 days in order to re-set the clock before the second trip.

 

The entry/departure dates will be entered onto your passport until the computerised passport logging system comes on-line - expected by 2022. See here: https://tinyurl.com/y6j2dmn4 More, general, information here: https://tinyurl.com/yxn7vngc

 

My guess is that although the principle is generally clear, how long it will take for the systems to "bed in", and how they will work in particular cases - especially if travellers try "pushing the envelope" - may get a bit interesting! :-D

 

But, overall, I think we will definitely have to sit up and pay attention if we don't want to accidentally find ourselves on the receiving end of a sanction.

[Barryd999]

One way to do an extended trip without having to come home for 90 days could be to break it up and visit none Schengen countries (I think).

 

This is the list.

 

Albania, Andora, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Croatia, Cyprus, Georgia, Ireland, Kosovo, North Macedonia, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Turkey, Ukraine, The United Kingdom and Vatican City.

 

The only ones that would appeal to me would be Croatia (no good for wilding or Aires), Cyprus (PIA to get to and too hot mid summer) and maybe Turkey but also a bit of a stretch.

 

I guess you could do 45 days going across Europe to one of them, 45 days or whatever in said none Schengen country then come back through Europe for another 45 days.

 

Worra faff on! If only we could come up with something where we didnt have to bother with all that. Call it Freedom of movement or something. :'(

[Solwaybuggier]

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-24 11:38 AM

 

You may find this helpful: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/visa-calculator

 

 

2) Each time you leave Schengen (irrespective of the Schengen state from which you leave) your passport will be date and time recorded out, and the total number of days you have spent in Schengen during the previous 180 days will be calculated. If that exceeds 90 days, various penalties ranging from warnings, through fines, to banning, will apply.

 

3) It is important that your passport is recorded out each time you leave Schengen, particularly if leaving into another EU state that is not in Schengen, and is recorded back in again if you will transit a Schengen state en-route to, for example, a Channel port, otherwise you will be assumed to have remained within Schengen for the entire duration!

 

.

 

I think that's very clear and helpful, Brian - my only query is about leaving the Schengen zone - I can't remember seeing border controls into and out of San Marino, and I'd be surprised if there were any for Andorra. Or maybe my memory is playing tricks there? If not, though, I 'm unclear how it would work.

 

But I certainly wouldn't rely on French border police not being bothered to check it - pretty straightforward for a computer to flag up, I'd have thought.

[Brian Kirby]

Solwaybuggier - 2020-07-24 12:38 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-24 11:38 AM

You may find this helpful: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/visa-calculator

2) Each time you leave Schengen (irrespective of the Schengen state from which you leave) your passport will be date and time recorded out, and the total number of days you have spent in Schengen during the previous 180 days will be calculated. If that exceeds 90 days, various penalties ranging from warnings, through fines, to banning, will apply.

3) It is important that your passport is recorded out each time you leave Schengen, particularly if leaving into another EU state that is not in Schengen, and is recorded back in again if you will transit a Schengen state en-route to, for example, a Channel port, otherwise you will be assumed to have remained within Schengen for the entire duration! .

I think that's very clear and helpful, Brian - my only query is about leaving the Schengen zone - I can't remember seeing border controls into and out of San Marino, and I'd be surprised if there were any for Andorra. Or maybe my memory is playing tricks there? If not, though, I 'm unclear how it would work...………....

I have no idea, as I haven't seen any clarification as to the operation of border controls within the EU between Schengen and non-Schengen states. We entered Croatia from Italy some years back (but after Croatia had joined), and there were border controls then. Whether they still exist there I don't know, but would assume as with UK, there would have to be some at the Schengen borders.

[Steve H]

Do please bear in mind that whilst trying to dodge in and out of EU countries you will still be subject to 90 days within 180.

[Cattwg]

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-24 11:38 AM

You may find this helpful: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/visa-calculator

 

My understanding of the Schengen rule is the same as Brian’s. The link seems to work well. A few months ago, I spent some time putting in likely dates for our spring and winter trips to Europe. These trips are usually between 7 and 10 weeks depending on the countries to be visited.

I also experimented with dates that broke the 90/180 day rule and the link flagged them as illegal.

 

We sometimes take cruises or short package holidays to Europe so these would have to be incorporated into any calculations.

Don’t forget that the first and last days count in the 90 day calculation. Also, the dates are not annual they are a rolling 180 days. We need to be very aware of our dates in Europe in future.

 

I hope it doesn't happen but I’m just waiting for the first post from someone who has been caught out by the Schengen rules.

 

 

Cattwg :-D

[Brian Kirby]

Steve H - 2020-07-24 9:13 PM

Do please bear in mind that whilst trying to dodge in and out of EU countries you will still be subject to 90 days within 180.

Yes, and no! :-) It is not whether the countries are EU states that counts, but whether they are in Schengen.

 

Those in EU, but not Schengen, are Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Ireland and Romania. Passports controls entering/leaving.

Those in Schengen but not EU, are Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland. Passports and Customs controls entering/leaving.

 

The 90 days in 180 days limit applies to time spent in the Schengen zone, whether or not the country is an EU member state.

 

If seeking to spend some time outside the Schengen zone during a trip, it will be essential that your passport shows when you left Schengen, and also when/if you re-entered Schengen, as in the first instance it will otherwise be assumed you have spent the whole time in Schengen, and in the second instance it may be assumed you had entered Schengen illegally.

[KAM]

Yes it is more restrictive than it first appears - you do need to use the calculator that Brian linked to to see how it will work in practice especially if you do multiple trips as I do. You can't just hop out and back in to Schengen to reset the clock, the restriction is 90 days within the last 180. This restriction already applies to other non-EU citizens and sanctions apply to overstayers, see https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/consequences-of-overstaying-in-schengen-area/. Other likely consequences from next 1 January include no more EHIC cards, no more pet passports, an International Driving Licence required (issued not online but over the counter at a post office, cardboard with a physical photo glued in). From 2022 an ETIA will be required, similar to a USA ESTA. On the plus side your new passport will be blue. 'You don't know what you've got till its gone'.

[Deneb]

Just a couple of points to add to Brian's reply.

 

There is no clock "reset" as such. The 180 day window is a rolling 180 day period. It is calculated each day by looking backwards 180 days from the current day and working out how many days in total have been spent in Schengen within that period.

 

As for scanning of passports, whilst the ETIAS system may not yet be online, computerised scanning and recording of passports and owners' travel itineraries has been happening for years, hence the introduction of machine-readable passports several years ago.

 

As I posted some time back, we had to cut short a holiday in the Netherlands last year when my wife broke her wrist quite severely on only our third day there. After emergency treatment and advice that she needed an operation ASAP to correct matters, we opted to return home. Upon our passports being scanned by customs at the port, we were asked the purpose of our stay and why we were returning in a motorhome so soon after having arrived, and the atmosphere was quite frosty until my wife displayed her arm cast and we produced the medical reports.

[johnfromnorfolk]

Using the calculator if you overwinter in Spain in November you must be out of the Schengen area by the end January (90 days later) and not return for another 90 days.

Could be big problem for some motorhomers, caravaners and folk with boats who spend their time in the Med.

Can hear the cries of derision "they didn't tell us that when we voted for Brexit".

[Barryd999]

johnfromnorfolk - 2020-07-26 8:20 AM

 

Using the calculator if you overwinter in Spain in November you must be out of the Schengen area by the end January (90 days later) and not return for another 90 days.

Could be big problem for some motorhomers, caravaners and folk with boats who spend their time in the Med.

Can hear the cries of derision "they didn't tell us that when we voted for Brexit".

 

Except we did, over and over and over again but it was all "Project Fear". I think from memory most of the polls on motorhome forums were about 70% in favour of leaving. *-)

 

Turkeys, Christmas, Voting for. :-(

[johnfromnorfolk]

Barryd999 - 2020-07-26 8:42 AM

 

johnfromnorfolk - 2020-07-26 8:20 AM

 

Using the calculator if you overwinter in Spain in November you must be out of the Schengen area by the end January (90 days later) and not return for another 90 days.

Could be big problem for some motorhomers, caravaners and folk with boats who spend their time in the Med.

Can hear the cries of derision "they didn't tell us that when we voted for Brexit".

 

Except we did, over and over and over again but it was all "Project Fear". I think from memory most of the polls on motorhome forums were about 70% in favour of leaving. *-)

 

Turkeys, Christmas, Voting for. :-(

 

Yes, could never understand why motorhomers would vote for Brexit.

Not sure 70% voted to come out, all the motorhomers I meet seem to have voted to remain.

I first posted about the restrictions on this site on July 10th 2016.

[Wortho]

Cattwg - 2020-07-25 11:34 AM

 

I hope it doesn't happen but I’m just waiting for the first post from someone who has been caught out by the Schengen rules.

 

Cattwg :-D

I have some experience here when travelling on an Aussie passport a couple of years ago. We flew into Denmark and picked the van up in Sweden where we store it over winter. We spent the next 4 months travelling down South mostly in Spain and Portugal and then went to depart Copenhagen airport for a flight back to Australia. The immigration official looked at the stamp in my passport when I arrived and said I had overstayed! she called the Police and it all got pretty scary and I thought i'd miss my flight. They held me for around half an hour and asked lots of questions, I explained I had not even spent a night in Denmark which was true and Australia has a bilateral agreement with Denmark and others where you can spend 90 days in another Schengen country without it affecting your 90 days in another. Anyway they eventually released me with a warning but I was worried it might affect me on a later trip so I got my UK passport renewed and have been using that ever since.

[Brian Kirby]

Deneb - 2020-07-25 12:57 PM

Just a couple of points to add to Brian's reply.

There is no clock "reset" as such. The 180 day window is a rolling 180 day period. It is calculated each day by looking backwards 180 days from the current day and working out how many days in total have been spent in Schengen within that period.……………………………....

The "clock reset" I referred to in my first post above actually arose from reading this (sorry, I cant use "tiny" for the reference!): https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/border-crossing/docs/short_stay_schengen_calculator_user_manual_en.pdf which states, at the fourth paragraph, in reference to "any 180 day period":

 

"The notion of "any", implies the application of a "moving" 180-day reference period, looking backwards at each day of the stay (be it at the entry or at the day of an actual check), into the last 180-day period, in order to verify if the 90 days / 180-day requirement continues to be fulfilled. Among others, it means that an absence for an uninterrupted period of 90 days allows for a new stay for up to 90 days. (My bold on last sentence.)

 

It is that new 90 days period (the new "window") that opens after an absence of an uninterrupted 90 days (the mechanism that triggers it) that I was trying to encapsulate by referring to it as the clock resetting.

 

Hope the above is a bit clearer.

[MartinP]

Just to comment on the Turkeys voting for Christmas. In June 2016 we were at the Midland Motorhome show at Stafford on the weekend after the Referendum..

The compere of the main marquee entertainment made a comment on Brexit and then asked for a show of hands between Leave and Remain. We were absolutely stunned by the overwhelming majority of "Leavers". I could not, and 4 years on still can't, understand why Motorhomers would want to give up all the advantages of free movement, health care, roaming , cheap booze imports etc but I'm now too weary of arguing the case. The far right of the Tory Party always wanted a no-deal Brexit. It's coming upon us fast!

The exchange rate drop has already added 20-30% to costs of overseas travel and living expenses. Don't worry that will be dwarfed by our costs at home increasing next year. If we didn't transfer our assets to tax havens before its our own fault. Many of the Leavers did (led by Rees-Mogg).

It is going to be an unmitigated disaster and all the downside will be blamed on Covid 19

[derek500]

MartinP - 2020-07-26 3:34 PM

 

Just to comment on the Turkeys voting for Christmas. In June 2016 we were at the Midland Motorhome show at Stafford on the weekend after the Referendum..

The compere of the main marquee entertainment made a comment on Brexit and then asked for a show of hands between Leave and Remain. We were absolutely stunned by the overwhelming majority of "Leavers". I could not, and 4 years on still can't, understand why Motorhomers would want to give up all the advantages of free movement, health care, roaming , cheap booze imports etc but I'm now too weary of arguing the case. The far right of the Tory Party always wanted a no-deal Brexit. It's coming upon us fast!

The exchange rate drop has already added 20-30% to costs of overseas travel and living expenses. Don't worry that will be dwarfed by our costs at home increasing next year. If we didn't transfer our assets to tax havens before its our own fault. Many of the Leavers did (led by Rees-Mogg).

It is going to be an unmitigated disaster and all the downside will be blamed on Covid 19

 

Have you any evidence that Rees-Mogg transferred any of his personal assets out of the UK? I thought it was fund/s under management of an investment company that he has a financial interest in that were moved. Normal investment practice.

[MartinP]

According to the House of Commons records of declared interests Somerset Capital Management, of which he owned in excess of the 15% threshold for declaration, transferred its company base to three offices in the US, Far East and a caribbean off-shore tax haven. It is not loose change. Some of his personal money is invested in SCM

It may be normal practice for such people.

It was reported in "The Mail" and on Channel 4 that his share was a minimum of £7M gain on currency change alone as well as gains in value through emerging markets.

It may not have influenced his strategy for the UKs future but I am saying that in my humble opinion that is a conflict of interests with me and the millions of people who don't have millions of pounds to move around and exploit the UKs changing circumstances.

[webpax]

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-24 11:38 AM

 

 

1) The first time you enter Schengen (irrespective of the Schengen state at which you enter) after 1 January 2021, your passport will be date and time recorded in, and a 180 day window will open, within which you can spend a maximum of 90 days in Schengen. The 90 days can be spent over as many trips as you choose, subject to the total duration of all trips not exceeding 90 days within any 180 day period.

 

Very useful thanks Brian but I wonder how 1) will work if your holiday in a Schengen country has started prior to 01/01/21. i.e. you are already within the Schengen borders prior to the 1st.

[teccer1234]

webpax - 2020-07-26 10:20 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-24 11:38 AM

 

 

1) The first time you enter Schengen (irrespective of the Schengen state at which you enter) after 1 January 2021, your passport will be date and time recorded in, and a 180 day window will open, within which you can spend a maximum of 90 days in Schengen. The 90 days can be spent over as many trips as you choose, subject to the total duration of all trips not exceeding 90 days within any 180 day period.

 

Very useful thanks Brian but I wonder how 1) will work if your holiday in a Schengen country has started prior to 01/01/21. i.e. you are already within the Schengen borders prior to the 1st.

 

the way I read it the 90 day rule only starts 01/01/21 so if you go to Spain in November as we're still in the implemention period the 90 day starts at the beginning of Jan so you can stay until end of March = 5 months ????

[Brian Kirby]

teccer1234 - 2020-07-26 11:39 PM

webpax - 2020-07-26 10:20 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-24 11:38 AM

1) The first time you enter Schengen (irrespective of the Schengen state at which you enter) after 1 January 2021, your passport will be date and time recorded in, and a 180 day window will open, within which you can spend a maximum of 90 days in Schengen. The 90 days can be spent over as many trips as you choose, subject to the total duration of all trips not exceeding 90 days within any 180 day period.

Very useful thanks Brian but I wonder how 1) will work if your holiday in a Schengen country has started prior to 01/01/21. i.e. you are already within the Schengen borders prior to the 1st.

the way I read it the 90 day rule only starts 01/01/21 so if you go to Spain in November as we're still in the implemention period the 90 day starts at the beginning of Jan so you can stay until end of March = 5 months ????

It's a good question, and I don't know the answer as I haven't seen that point clarified. Teccr1234's suggestion seems perfectly logical. However, if you think this may apply to you, why not contact ETIAS for clarification and then let us know their answer? It may be of interest to quite a few of those who over-winter in the EU.