Tracker Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 It is all a bit technical for me as we seem to be at stage Euro 6a now and I wonder does anyone have any knowledge of the practical implications and likely effects of Euro 6b and 6c as far as motorhome base vehicles are concerned when they are fully introduced over the next few years? I have never been a tree hugger but I am becoming more concerned by diesel emissions, not so much due to the output of each individual vehicle but more due to the sheer volume of diesel engined vehicles now on our roads. This has increased particularly following governmental manipulation of ved bands in favour of low CO2 and not in favour of low particulate and/or NOX emissions. We now only drive petrol engined or hybrid cars but this unfortunately is not currently a viable option for the van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Rich, I think for large Vehicles they are going to have to go back to large Petrol engines, and run them on LPG. The Americans will be ahead in the game in that respect, And LPG always made more sense to me anyway. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgnbuk Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 "Like Euro 5, Euro 6 is being introduced in three stages as summarised in the following table. The first stage (Euro 6a) was voluntary and enabled vehicles to be introduced with Euro 6 type approval, earlier than required, but without the new particulate measurement procedure. Similarly, Euro 6b allows positive ignition (PI) engined vehicles, only, to continue being type approved to Euro 6 without the new particulate measurement procedure, after the deadline for completion of Euro 6a. The definitions of the stages are as follows: Euro 6a: Euro 6 emissions requirements excluding the revised measurement procedure for particulates, the particle number standard and the flexible fuel vehicle low temperature emission testing with biofuel. Euro 6b: Euro 6 emissions requirements including the revised measurement procedure for particulates, the particle number standard for CI vehicles and the flexible fuel vehicle low temperature emission testing with biofuel. Euro 6c: The full Euro 6 emissions standard, ie. Euro 6b plus the particle number standard for PIDI (direct injection positive ignition) vehicles [8]." From http://www.emleg.com/legislation/view/eu-passenger-cars-ldt where the tables refered to can be viewed. Seems like Euro 6c is the full implementation of Euro 6, with subset a and b being stages along the path to full implementation. Like you, we have gone back to petrol cars (with an LPG conversion on mine) as diesels are more trouble & cost than they save overall. Can't see petrol/LPG Ducatos coming any time soon, despite the Ducato in the States having a 3.5 litre petrol V6 & the X244 having been available from the factory as an LPG option (according to my X244 handbook). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 We do less than 3,000 miles in our car so when we changed we decided mpg would not be much of a consideration so we went for an automatic Honda CR-V with a petrol engine and I've been presently surprised. True it does not pull as well as the diesel version but it's old fashioned 5 speed slush box is super smooth and with the torque converter five speeds seems ample to cope with all situations. I expected very poor fuel consumption so have been plesently surprised with the 36 mpg we are getting. Some petrol engines with small capacity and turbo chargers are getting very near to diesels in cars so,I don't see why this should not happen with vans in time especialy with many cities thinking about what they can do about diesel pollution which is a particular problem in towns and cities. We changed our motorhome a year earlier than we normally would specifically to avoid the complications and cost of a Euro 6 engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Tracker - 2015-02-20 4:21 PM It is all a bit technical for me as we seem to be at stage Euro 6a now... We aren’t at Euro 6 yet. From the link mgnbuk provided it will be seen that (at least where where motorhomes are concerned) the ‘full’ Euro 6 implementation dates are 01/09/2014 (Type Approval) and 01/09/2015 (First Registration.) Fiat describes the motors used in current X290 Ducatos as "Euro 5+” to indicate that their emission levels are lower than those required to meet the Euro 5 standard. But the motors are not Euro 6-compliant and further modifications will be needed (eg. the addition of a diesel exhaust fluid system) to allow that standard to be met. Other ‘van’ manufacturers (eg. Ford and Mercedes) have offered Euro 6 motors in advance of the deadline, but Fiat has chosen to delay until the standard becomes mandatory. When the X290 was launched in mid-2014 Fiat Professional’s Henrik Starup commented “One of the reasons the new Fiat Ducato doesn’t have Euro 6 engines is simply the cost. - they are more expensive and compliance doesn’t have to be met yet. Because Euro 6 engines will cost more, why ask van drivers to pay an increase when they don’t need to? Our latest engines are more fuel efficient anyway, so they will save money. That is better in my book.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-02-20 5:44 PM Rich, I think for large Vehicles they are going to have to go back to large Petrol engines, and run them on LPG. The Americans will be ahead in the game in that respect, And LPG always made more sense to me anyway. Ray Anyone who wants to remain Emission zones compliant, and doesn't want to get on the treadmill of having to change their camper every 5 years will do well to source a petrol powered motorhome ;-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Who the hell cares, we stay out of emission zones anyway, seen enough of big towns and cities. Will stick by diesel with both van and 4 x4,s. In a couple of years time they will suddenly discover petrol is causing all the problems anyway, depends how much tax politicians think they can get out of us. As to hybrids I am firmly in the Jeremy Clarkson school of thinking with these complete waste of space cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 pelmetman - 2015-02-21 10:04 AM Rayjsj - 2015-02-20 5:44 PM Rich, I think for large Vehicles they are going to have to go back to large Petrol engines, and run them on LPG. The Americans will be ahead in the game in that respect, And LPG always made more sense to me anyway. Ray Anyone who wants to remain Emission zones compliant, and doesn't want to get on the treadmill of having to change their camper every 5 years will do well to source a petrol powered motorhome ;-) ........ [/quote I agree with you pelmetman, however after many years of 'old vans' we finally splashed out in 2012 and bought a 'brand new' one, with the layout that we could live with, we often live in the van for 3 months at a time.It just happens to be 'euro 5' but so far that,and all the cheap unreliable emission control sensors and gizmos that entails Has been more of a hindrance than a help. As for changing every 5 years !! You have got to be joking once a 'nest egg' has been spent you do not get it back again,not in this lifetime anyway. No,this vehicle if looked after, can give good service for 20 if not 30 years, my Talisman was 20 years old when I bought it ! I. Believe that is the most sensible way to 'Save the planet' make consumer 'Durables' durable, not this 'Planned obscelescnonsense' which is criminally wasteful. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I expect you will see AdBlue being used in almost all of the next generation of van engines. It's common in truck engines so the technology is there. VW used it in the Crafter [may still do]. There is an acceptance in the truck industry that there is little to be gained in going much further down the technology route because the costs will increase and benefits decrease. Hence, we are seeing inter-modal transport using the sea/canals and rail by the big boys. These big boys also minimise 'empty truck running'. There are no more trucks on the road than in the 1950's although the size and mileage covered is greater. Even so, in total they pollute less than trucks in the past. I believe we are wasting time debating these issues. Nobody can provide indisputable facts so we waste money switching from different thinking to another. Dying is the final act of living. If it's not pollution, it'll be something else that kills. I don't go with the desire to let everyone live so long that they become miserable in dingy Care Homes - my 92 year old Mum is in one now and can't understand why she is being kept alive at great cost to the State. Be sensible, adjust to changing circumstances and accept something is going to kill you one day. Or buy a narrow boat! Happiness is joy in the 'now' without guilt. By the way, have you noticed how many children ride in buggies which are just the right height to inhale exhaust gases? Wonder what happened to prams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 The trend towards cleaner emissions might suggest that motorhomes, based on commercial vehicle chassis, will be driven off the roads much sooner than they would otherwise be economical to maintain. In practical terms however, setting aside things like fuel consumption and road tax band, which don't make a huge difference to the avergae MH owner, the only penalty of keeping an older, less clean motorhome seems to be the swinging charges for the exclusion zones around big cities, is that right? Our Government or the EU might introduce other penalties but as far as we can see at the moment that's it, correct? I'm happy to stay out of big city environmental exclusion zones for ever, so do I face any substantial threat keeping my 2006, non-cat diesel motorhome or am I lucky because I don't even have a catalytic converter to replace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I'm not a believer in any air pollution discovery's. I worked in a closed space filled with poisonous gasses from Beryllium, Molybdenum, and all types of oils and chemicals. I loved it and am still here. There's more die by worrying about it than the actual material itself. Its the old story if the message keeps being told it will be believed. Its your money they're after. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Is does make you wonder, if petrol engines would solve the problem, especially now they've removed the lead ;-) ............ common sense dictates a rapid change over to petrol or LPG :-| ........... But there again it would mean government would lose the excuse to charge diesel vehicles more, and van makers wouldn't get away with blaming it on the government :D........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Hey Will, don't you get those pesky phone calls asking, "Have you ever worked in ...... We can get you compensation." I agree that we are getting an increasing risk free lifestyle and worrying about things causes more deaths - just look at suicide rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Brock - 2015-02-21 3:13 PM Hey Will, don't you get those pesky phone calls asking, "Have you ever worked in ...... We can get you compensation." I agree that we are getting an increasing risk free lifestyle and worrying about things causes more deaths - just look at suicide rates. We get them in Spain on our mobile *-) ..............we've learn't to ignore them, then google any numbers although often there's no ID...................... Coz if it was serious they'd leave a message ;-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 pelmetman - 2015-02-21 2:24 PM Is does make you wonder, if petrol engines would solve the problem, especially now they've removed the lead ;-) ............ common sense dictates a rapid change over to petrol or LPG :-| ........... And that's how the masses are persuaded to spend yet more on new-fangled ideals which as the years pass are no better and often worse. I never see a problem that wants solving. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Tracker - 2015-02-20 4:21 PM I have never been a tree hugger but I am becoming more concerned by diesel emissions, not so much due to the output of each individual vehicle but more due to the sheer volume of diesel engined vehicles now on our roads. Tracker But how can you or anyone come to a conclusion when it comes from a government source. We rarely hear about changes in food additives that crucify some people. Unknown food additives sell and so does controversy over a fuel type. When horse traffic blocked the streets of London it was said that horse manure smells were dangerous, now its diesel, what's next. Too much salt in the sea? Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Will85 - 2015-02-21 6:26 PM Tracker - 2015-02-20 4:21 PM I have never been a tree hugger but I am becoming more concerned by diesel emissions, not so much due to the output of each individual vehicle but more due to the sheer volume of diesel engined vehicles now on our roads. Tracker But how can you or anyone come to a conclusion when it comes from a government source. We rarely hear about changes in food additives that crucify some people. Unknown food additives sell and so does controversy over a fuel type. When horse traffic blocked the streets of London it was said that horse manure smells were dangerous, now its diesel, what's next. Too much salt in the sea? Will You can bet your life it will be passive smoking next :D I'll keep inhaling diesel particulates instead. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 Will85 - 2015-02-21 6:26 PM Tracker - 2015-02-20 4:21 PM I have never been a tree hugger but I am becoming more concerned by diesel emissions, not so much due to the output of each individual vehicle but more due to the sheer volume of diesel engined vehicles now on our roads. But how can you or anyone come to a conclusion when it comes from a government source. We rarely hear about changes in food additives that crucify some people. Unknown food additives sell and so does controversy over a fuel type. When horse traffic blocked the streets of London it was said that horse manure smells were dangerous, now its diesel, what's next. Too much salt in the sea? I am no lover of or believer in 'global warming' as an excuse to raise taxation but I do believe that the world's climate is evolving as it has for millions of years and that mankind's exploitations are at best not helping and at worst accelerating those changes. Things change over time they always have and always will. That diesel engine derived pollution is getting worse may or may not be true but whatever the truth the theory that the explosion of diesel engined cars engineered to comply with a taxation regime that penalises CO2 and not particulates etc is causing increased pollution is to me at least a lot more worthy. Being selfish, my primary interest is not the future of mankind as mankind can sort it's own future out long after I am gone, but I am concerned about the dubious short term engineering solutions being used to cure political mistakes in road vehicle pollution levels, if for no other principle reason other than how it will affect me. You may well remember horse manure in London but I don't, but I do remember smog - just - and it's abolition by the use of cleaner fuels was real progress for people's health and well being. Who is to say that reducing diesel pollution will not do the same? So on that basis just because you don't believe it is true does not make it untrue with both sides of the argument remaining unproven. Many allegedly harmful or toxic food additives have been removed over the years and at least these days we have food labeling which whilst still devious sometimes does at least give us some chance to choose what we eat. Similarly we have the choice of which road (or home heating) fuel to use and I personally am moving away from diesel as my preferred road power and back towards petrol or petrol electric hybrids which I still see as the best way forward for more efficient and cleaner transport use. Time may prove me wrong but I doubt anyone knows for sure right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Interestingly I was in the centre of London on one of the worst days at 3 in the afternoon, the air was brown with difficulty seeing across the street, we decided to leave immediately. I believe the most serious aspect there was the moisture absorbing the sulphur and carbon etc plus the concentration. I don't see moisture being part of today's problem in the UK but I do see new scientists and other purists adding their little bit to the last little bit trying to squeeze out every drop of evidence from a given space. Of course we will never know the facts no one would dare tell ! PS I heard last week that butter is now considered not so nasty for us. Good I never stopped eating it neither all the fat on meat, wonderful stuff ! Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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