Guest machra Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Before I contact Fiat about this does anyone have the same problem? I have a 2017 Euro 6 130bhp Ducato (Burstner 7m coachbuilt) and find that I have clutch judder in reverse. It is to the point where I can’t back onto levelling chocks. It is fine on level ground but I doubt I would be able to back out of any situation that required me to reverse up an incline. I know of the issues with earlier Ducato’s and judder in reverse but has anyone experienced this on a euro 6 van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 There’s a major difference between clutch ‘slip’ and ‘judder’. If your Burstner’s clutch is actually slipping, it’s near certain that the clutch will need replacement. If it’s ‘just’ a juddering problem when reversing on to levelling ramps, then Fiat might consider this as understandable (rather than a fault) and what one might reasonably expect when attempting that exercise. I can’t see the fact that your Burstner is based on a Ducato Euro 6 being significant, as opposed to (say) my Rapido being based on a Ducato Euro 5. I vaguely recall advice that backing on to levelling ramps should be avoided as a) the reverse-gear ratio is often higher than the 1st-gear ratio and b) it’s more natural to drive forwards rather than backwards. Having said that, my Rapido is noticeably low-geared and I would not anticipate any difficulty backing on to ramps. I can imagine I MIGHT provoke juddering if my Rapido (built on a 3500kg Ducato ‘light’ chassis) had the 16”-diameter wheel option that raises the overall gearing significantly and the levelling ramps being backed on to were Milenco Quattros, but not otherwise. I suggest you experiment by reversing up a steep incline and see if the juddering occurs. If it does, first speak to the dealership that sold you the motorhome ad ask their advice. You’ll need to demonstrate the juddering behaviour to the dealer and - if the dealer believes there’s a problem with your specific vehicle - for this behaviour then to be accepted (by Fiat) as abnormal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Hi Machra; approximately what angle do you think your ramps are? And do you think that you are likely to experience this sort of angle of inclination on the open road? I have a Ducato panelvan 08 reg, that has had the work done by Fiat, even so I would avoid reversing up ramps, I’d find a better pitch. Never had any situations on the open road, but also avoid reversing up steep gravel drives. Regards Alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I often when I see people reversing up onto ramps wonder Why they don't drive up onto them I think it's a lot easier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 One reason for having levelling ramps behind the wheels, rather than in front, is so that when the motorhome comes off the ramps it rolls forwards not backwards. This might be considered advantageous if the motorhome is to be parked on ground that the driver suspects may become soft, as it should reduce the chance of the motorhome becoming bogged down. I’ve no conceptual problem with people reversing up levelling ramps as I can understand why they might want to do this, but it should certainly be easier to drive forwards on to ramps than backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 machra - 2017-10-22 8:33 AM Before I contact Fiat about this does anyone have the same problem? I have a 2017 Euro 6 130bhp Ducato (Burstner 7m coachbuilt) and find that I have clutch judder in reverse. It is to the point where I can’t back onto levelling chocks. It is fine on level ground but I doubt I would be able to back out of any situation that required me to reverse up an incline. I know of the issues with earlier Ducato’s and judder in reverse but has anyone experienced this on a euro 6 van. One thing that might be worth clarifying, is whether this judder is experienced while slipping the clutch (as I'm guessing), or whether it is a result of trying to reverse at low speed with the clutch fully engaged. I ask, because the earlier reported juddering incidents seemed, in the end, not to be caused by the clutch itself, but when reversing with the clutch fully engaged, but at such low speed that the engine revs dropped into the range at which the ECU intervened to prevent a stall. It seemed this loaded the springs in the dual mass flywheel, which then relaxed, releasing their energy back into the drive train, provoking a further intervention from the ECU, and so on, creating a relatively violent low frequency vibration that was interpreted as a judder. It seemed to be a kind of harmonic resonance between the ECU reaction to low engine speed under load, and the damping springs in the DMF. However, if you're clear it is while slipping the clutch then, as suggested, I'd find a hill and try a few hill starts in both first and reverse, and see if the judder can be provoked. If it can, I'd get it booked into a Fiat Professional workshop for evaluation (preferably one with a nearby hill! :-)), giving them as detailed an explanation as possible of what happens under which conditions. It could be a mis-aligned clutch plate, weak, or broken, damping spring/s, or oil contamination via a leaking engine oil seal. As the vehicle should be under warranty, and as any of the above faults may result in complete failure of the clutch, it seems prudent to get it fixed early. Clutch failures are usually provoked under stress, and in the least convenient places! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machra Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Thanks for all your replies. The fault is a reluctance of the van to reverse while ‘riding’ the clutch, either when reversing onto levelling chocks, or trying to reverse up an incline. While I may have expected a bit of an issue backing onto chocks I would have thought that backing up What I would call a gentle slope, not a major hill, to be no issue at all. As has been suggested I do normally drive onto levelling ramps but on the odd occasions have thought it may be best to reverse on (when ground is soft and it would be easier to pull off without stopping and when on an aire in France that if ‘disturbed’ during the night was better to pull off leaving said levellers rather than backing off). The aim of the post was to see if anyone else has suffered any issues in reverse with the new Ducato euro 6. I will investigate myself more thoroughly first and then connect dealer/Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 hi i have a 2017 fiat euro6 and have no had any of your problems hope all goes well at fiat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 This afternoon, out of curiosity, I put my Milenco MGI T2 levelling ramps http://www.milenco.com/products/levelling/mgi-t2-midi-levels behind my Rapido’s rear wheels and experimented with reversing up the ramps. The MGI T2 ramps have a reasonable amount of lift and have a ‘gentle’ profile. Driving forwards on to them is easy and the Rapido climbs up them at low revs with no hint of juddering. Reversing up the ramps was similar - low revs and no juddering. The first time I tried it I only reached the 1st ’step’, but on the 2nd attempt the rear wheels went up all three steps and over the top! In future, unless I feel an overpowering need to reverse on to the ramps, I shall not be repeating this procedure... (Incidentally, the Fiat Ducato X250s that were affected by ‘juddering’ around 2007 did not have dual-mass flywheels.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 It occurs to me that you may have a gearbox where all the parts are at the limits of tolerance and this promotes judder, considering the history of x250's and juddering I'm sure if it had resurfaced in any quantity it would be all over the forums by now. When using ramps I always whenever possible place them on the outside, so driving forwards for front wheels, and reversing for rear wheels, in this situation one set of wheels is going downhill whilst the other is going up the ramps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-10-22 6:40 PM...................(Incidentally, the Fiat Ducato X250s that were affected by ‘juddering’ around 2007 did not have dual-mass flywheels.) I stand corrected. I had understood that DMFs were introduced with the 2.3 litre X250s, though not for the 3.0 litre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebeaches Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Just a quick note - how old and how many miles have you driven in your new van? When we got a new X250 in 2010 I knew all about juddergate. But my problem was pulling away - forwards - from stationery. However I tried, I got a nasty judder - soft take-off or brisk take-off. Incidentally, reversing was absolutely fine - only starting to go forward was the issue. Was thinking I needed to pay a visit to Fiat. But after about 1,000 miles noticed the problem was easing. and as the mileage increased, so the issue disappeared altogether. Had the van 5 years and 30k miles and the clutch and starting were smooth as silk after the first 1,000-or so miles. Can only assume it had perhaps been standing, or become 'sticky' or something? Wonder if you have a similar problem and it might improve over time? Or on the other hand, perhaps not... :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry McG Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I recall that it was not advised to reverse onto ramps / up hills, as reverse actually a a taller gear than 1st, therefore puts additional wear / stain onto the clutch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Not had any problems with ours but I never reverse onto ramps for the reason Gerry states. If I can't go on forwards I put up with the van on a slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Gerry McG - 2017-10-23 12:50 PM Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I recall that it was not advised to reverse onto ramps / up hills, as reverse actually a a taller gear than 1st, therefore puts additional wear / stain onto the clutch... The only online evidence for ratio's i've found lists the 5 speed box as having a taller reverse, but the six speed boxes not so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 The only Ducato X290s with a 5-speed gearbox were early models fitted with the 2.0litre motor. I’m not certain what gear ratios current Ducato X290s have (though I’m pretty sure I’ve come across the information somewhere on-line) but Fiat’s 2013 Ducato brochure (dealing with Euro 5 X250 models) shows reverse-gear as having a higher ratio than 1st-gear. This applied to vehicles with the 2.3litre motor (130 and 150) and to vehicles with the 3.0litre powerplant. All of those vehicles have a manual 6-speed transmission. Machra’s Burstner motorhome is not huge or that heavy and he has owned it for several months. As the ‘juddering’ problem shows up when reversing up a slope, unless his driving technique is at fault (unlikely) there must be a genuine fault. And as it happens going backwards but not forwards, it’s unlikely to self-correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocs Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-10-22 6:40 PM This afternoon, out of curiosity, I put my Milenco MGI T2 levelling ramps http://www.milenco.com/products/levelling/mgi-t2-midi-levels behind my Rapido’s rear wheels and experimented with reversing up the ramps. The MGI T2 ramps have a reasonable amount of lift and have a ‘gentle’ profile. Driving forwards on to them is easy and the Rapido climbs up them at low revs with no hint of juddering. Reversing up the ramps was similar - low revs and no juddering. The first time I tried it I only reached the 1st ’step’, but on the 2nd attempt the rear wheels went up all three steps and over the top! In future, unless I feel an overpowering need to reverse on to the ramps, I shall not be repeating this procedure... That was brave! (an old boss of mind used that word when he really meant something different :-D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 crocs - 2017-10-23 2:28 PM....................That was brave! (an old boss of mind used that word when he really meant something different :-D ) Heroic, surely? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Be sure your handbrakes are released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-10-23 11:15 AM Derek Uzzell - 2017-10-22 6:40 PM...................(Incidentally, the Fiat Ducato X250s that were affected by ‘juddering’ around 2007 did not have dual-mass flywheels.) I stand corrected. I had understood that DMFs were introduced with the 2.3 litre X250s, though not for the 3.0 litre. Regarding dual-mass flywheels, evidently all Ducatos fitted with the 3.0litre powerplant had a DMF - but X250 Ducatos with the 3.0litre motor did not display the type of serious ‘juddering in reverse’ problems that were criticised during the 2007-2009 period. In this 2013 forum thread Nick Fisher (euroserv) summarised the DMF position regarding Ducato X250s fitted with the 2.3litre motor http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-2-3-engines-and-Dual-Mass-Flywheels/32232/ and I THINK no DMF-related changes were made when the ‘Euro 5+’ Ducato X290 was introduced in 2014. According to this Practical Motorhome Euro 6 Ducato article https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/news/39133-euro-6-fiat-ducato-variety-and-performance "All the 2.3-litre engines can be mated to a six-speed manual or the robotised six-speed ‘ComfortMatic’ auto. The 150 and 180 versions have a new dual-mass flywheel which cuts vibrations for a smoother, more peaceful drive...” If that’s correct (and I’ve no reason to believe otherwise) then the 130 powerplant fitted to manchra’s Burstner will not have a DMF. This September 2014 .publication relates to Euro 5+ Ducato X290s http://www.fiatprofessional-me.com/me/CMSEN/Pdf/Ducato_Goods_Tech_Spec_nov14.pdf and indicates that the reverse-gear ratio in all instances was higher (lower numerically) than the 1st-gear ratio. This December 2012 equivalent for Euro 5 Ducato X250s http://www.fiatprofessional.com/com/cmsen/pdf/ducato_goods_transport__ts_ebrochure_sett011.pdf shows the same - reverse higher than 1st. (Apparently the ratios for 4th, 5th and 6th gear were lowered for ComfortMatic-equipped vehicles with 3.0litre motor and Maxi chassis when the X290 was introduced in 2014.) Of course, when carrying out this type of on-paper analysis, there’s always the chance that the data are wrong, particularly nowadays when copy-and-paste is the norm. And there’s also the possibiity that, when Fiat produces chassis specifically for conversion into motorhomes, the gear ratios differ from those used for ‘goods’ Ducatos. But iit should be anticipated that an experienced driver will know when a vehicle is behaving peculiarly and I note that machra has owned 3 other motorhomes since 2005 (2005 Peugeot-based Auto-Sleepers Symbol, 2007 Ford-based Hobby Siesta, 2011 Fiat X250 Timberland). So if he knows that his 2017 Burstner is not ‘right’ when being reversed, then this needs investigating ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-10-24 8:16 AM...............................But iit should be anticipated that an experienced driver will know when a vehicle is behaving peculiarly and I note that machra has owned 3 other motorhomes since 2005 (2005 Peugeot-based Auto-Sleepers Symbol, 2007 Ford-based Hobby Siesta, 2011 Fiat X250 Timberland). So if he knows that his 2017 Burstner is not ‘right’ when being reversed, then this needs investigating ASAP. OK, and thanks for that further information Derek. So, on the question of the reason for the 2007 judder, definitely not DMF related. Maybe that's why Fiat experimented with an engine stabiliser bar, before altering the gearing. Whatever, as machra has confirmed the problem arose while riding the clutch, it seems his best course will be to a Fiat Professional workshop for them to investigate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 A FWD motorhome fiat ducato on wet grass loaded front 1850kg and rear does not even move forward w/o slip. In rear mode even more. Stop the rear slipping very quicly when a smell cames out of the clutch. Some hands are welcome when you want to level and leaving a site.It is a matter of experience who goes off and who not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocs Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Mickt - 2017-10-24 5:51 PM Eh Translation: If a fiat ducato is heavily loaded front and rear on wet grass, it is extremely difficult to move forward without slipping the clutch and, in reverse, it is even more difficult. If you smell burning from the clutch, stop immediately. When you want to level up or when leaving a pitch, some helping hands are welcome. How experienced you are dictates who manages to get off and who not. Simple, once you've read a few and much better than I can do in Dutch or French. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machra Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Thanks again for further replies. Van is 6 speed 2.3 130 bhp and has 6k miles on it now. As I say I was asking to get a feel as to whether any juddergate, or reversing problems were materialising with the new euro 6 Ducato. From the posts it appears no one else has any problems. Therefore it will be a case of test and confirm myself then pester my friendly Fiat dealer. I have owned several Ducato vans from 2011 onwards, all 2.3 130bhp and this is the only one with this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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