Harriot5 Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Although there are various threads regarding Fiat Ducato gearbox/clutch problems I appear to have one with my '53 plate 2.8 JTD based Benimar Motorhome that I cannot find recorded. Unable to engage 2nd gear and with difficulty engaging/ disengaging all other gears our Beni is currently under repair. The oil was milky white indicating water ingress and the main cross shaft had seized into the casing. On stripping down the gearbox the second gear sync has broken up and both the fulcrum bushes and fulcrum are worn. The clutch is also rusted. As I say its being repaired at the moment but it would be helpful to know if anyone has come across this problem before and if there is any way of diverting the water from falling on the gearbox to stop this happening again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Yes the water ingress is a feature of that model, not sure of answer myself, a search may find answer if some one more knowledgable than myself doesn't answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Hi Harriot5, It would seem from your original message that you have been pointed in the direction of the most likely cause of your gearbox water ingress already. That is to say, that water drains from your scuttle area onto the top of your gearbox/clutch area where it can be allowed to accumulate in the ribbed areas. As you also have a rusty clutch, I would guess that you ingress and accumulation has been more significant than usual. This problem can be exacerbated by the angle at which your vehicle has usually been sat while not being used - a change of routine may ensure that the bulk of water can drain from a different corner of the vehicle! In order to go further & prevent this happening again, you could do as others did in the past and self fit a small drain tube from your scuttle that will safely divert the water away. I have seen where other owners have drilled a small hole in an appropriate part of the scuttle and siliconed a drain tube in. A good look around your engine bay will breed a few ideas. I must say that the problem of significant gearbox water ingress was fairly common on the old Fiat 1.9td engined vehicles where water seeped in through a faulty plastic speedo drive on the gearbox and in some cases via a faulty breather. This was on the 1.9 though and all 2.8JTD vehicles have electronic speedo drive and therefore the most common past cause of Ducato gearbox water ingress certainly does not apply to you. The issue for you is not so simple on the basis of the information you have provided because Sevel changed to a completely re-designed gearbox for the 2.8JTD in 2002. The previous genre 2.8 engine gearbox was an old Citroen design 4-speeder with a 5th gear bolted onto the side. This older box suffered some potential for fifth gear failure and in older mk 1 Ducato's, a possibility of water ingress via the gear linkage on the top thanks to very heavily leaking scuttles. Water ingress via the scuttle was reduced (but not eliminated) in the mk 2 Ducato/Boxer and the likelihood of ingress to the gearbox was reduced somewhat. As your vehicle was registered in 2003, it will most likely have the redesigned gearbox and I am not aware of any common problem with this unit. There is a possibility though, that your base vehicle may originate from late 2001 or early 2002 and have the older (Citroen) designed gearbox. You can tell the difference simply by the position of reverse gear on your dash. If it to the lower right, it's the older design. If it's up to the left, you have the newer design. None of this will magically or painlessly restore you gearbox for you and you have my sympathy. Hopefully though, you can take some action to eliminate a future re-occurrence. Nobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Hello, I think some of the information given above is misleading. Any water that drips onto the top of the gearbox will either run away harmlessly or if it enters via the selector shaft it will also drain away through the various gaps between the bell housing and the gearbox. The working parts are not at all vulnerable to water ingress in this way. From our considerable experience in this area I would suggest that the vehicle has been driven through or stood in flood water up to the breather hole at the rear 3/4 of the way up the back of the gearbox. This is in our experience the only way that you could get water into the gear oil without the oil leaking through a defective seal. This would also explain the clutch corrosion. We have seen many, many of these vehicles and often the driver has 'no idea' how it could have happened even though it would require a depth of at least 12 inches to occur. There are many inherent faults with these and later sevel vans but this is not one of them. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 As stated in the previous post, "could have been stood in flood water". How long have you owned the vehicle, could it have been one of the many flood damaged vehicles that were written off in the floods? Just a thought :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Hi Nick, Funnily enough while I was writing the above, I was hoping that you would come on and add the benefit of your experience with these vehicles. I always read your posts with interest. I must say that I personally have never read or heard of a later Sevel vehicle having gearbox water ingress problems and most of what I have said does relate to stuff about earlier vehicles that I have read or heard about (accurate or not). Apologies if there is misleading info in my post. I take a keen interest in these vehicles and confess that much of it has been gained by hearsay. I have to say though, that my own 2.8JTD has now been in my possession for almost 8 years and water does in fact find it's way onto the gearbox and will sit there in puddles on the ribs - maybe your vehicles by the nature of their use don't sit still long enough for this to happen noticeably. Mine and many other motorhomes do, so there is a different potential for water accumulation. Having said that, my gearbox oil has thankfully always been clean when changed. One thing is plain and that is that the OP has had a water ingress problem of which the cause is unknown. If they don't know the cause, then my suggestion is that it would be as well for them to exclude water ingress in any way that they can - surely not a bad policy in the fullness of things. If you don't know the exact cause, then remove as many potential one's as you can, especially if that can be done cheaply and easily. Regards, Nobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 My point exactly Nobby, The accumulation of water on top of the box in between the ribs will cause no harm at all. The milky oil situation could only arise by submersion, most likely while running as that would 'suck' water in through the breather. There are other undesirable effects of excess moisture behind the box which could result in an earlier than expected stiffening of the gear change because of corrosion on the ball part of the ball and socket connection of the gear selector cables and the selector arm. This is easily cleaned up though, and the addition of a blob of grease will hold it off for a while longer. I am very glad that you find my submissions helpful. Nick PS. I think Stew is right on the money with his suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 euroserv - 2009-07-17 3:15 PM I am very glad that you find my submissions helpful. Yes indeed. The issue of water cascading onto the gearbox in such quantities that it can cause accumulations is one that has concerned me and others I have spoken to and I am now reassured that this is of no consequence. It will be interesting to see if the OP can provide any history of submersion. Of course this may not be possible if they are not the first owners and we can then only guess at what might have happened. I hope they do reply but even if they do not, you may safely assume that having studied what you say and having previously avoided deep water in my vehicle , I will studiously continue to do so! Regards, Nobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriot5 Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 Thanks all for your comments. We have only had the Beni for about 9 months and covered around 1500 miles in that time as for various reasons we haven't been able to use it as much as we would have liked. It's not stood in any flood water during that time and I cannot recall driving through water of the sort of level you indicate would be necessary to cause the problem. That said I do not know whether this could have been the case before I acquired it. All very frustrating, particularly since we only got a 6 month warranty! But at least I know to avoid the puddles once its fixed. Thanks again Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriot5 Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Gearbox now rebuilt and new clutch fitted (and £1800 poorer!). but has developed a noise from gearbox on tick over. Increase revs very slightly and noise disappears. Also quiet when vehicle is in motion. Gearbox seems fine. I am being told this is 'gear chatter' that is normal on diesel commercials that do not have a smooth tick-over. I would be interested to hear if anyone else has experienced this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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