Fiat Ducato Euro 4 engine oil

[Robbo]

My engine is a Fiat Ducato 3 litre, 160 multijet, Euro 4, built 2008.

 

The handbook recommends grade 5W-40, synthetic based oil (ie. semi-synthetic).

 

I've just had a service (by local water company) and checked the dipstick. The oil seemed very thin. They've since confirmed they used 5W-30 fully synthetic.

 

I've seached previous threads on this topic, the most recent being in relation to the Fiat 2.8 JTD engine: https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-Ducato-engine-oil/51073/

 

The gist of the above thread seems to indicate that I should stick with the semi-synthetic oil. The reason being that the fully synthetic is much thinner and could lead to oil leaks.

 

I've used this water company for the last 4 years and previuosly been advised that the oil used was semi-synthetic. Presumably, their fleet of vehicles are now getting newer and consequently their bulk oil delivery reflects this for servicing their Euro 5/6 vehicles.

 

It seems to be getting more difficult to purchase semi-synthetic oil these days, and more expensive than the modern fully synthetic oils (as mentioned by Nick "Euroserv").

 

I would appreciate any advice or a bit of guidance on the best way forwards. Thank you.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

 

The engine-lubricant recommended for a Ducato X250 built in 2008 was SELENIA WR that (as you've said) is a 5W-40 ‘semi-synthetic’ oil.

 

However, a year or so later, the engine-oil being recommended was SELENIA WR P.E. that is 5W-30 and ‘fully-synthetic’ (though the contemporary Ducato Owner Handbook refers to it as a “synthetic base lubricant”).

 

As far as I’m aware, there were no significant technical differences between a 3.0litre MJ 160 motor that would have been installed in a 2008-built Ducato and a 3.0litre MJ 160 motor that would have been installed in a Ducato built in 2009 or 2010.

 

SELENIA WR 5W-40 conforms to the FIAT 9.55535-N2 specification and it is possible to obtain ‘semi-synthetic’ oil meeting that specification from other manufacturers. For example

 

https://www.shell.co.uk/motorist/oils-lubricants/helix-for-cars/helix-semi-synthetic/shell-helix-hx7-5w-40.html

 

5W-30 oil should be expected to be noticeably thinner than 5W-40 grade, whether it’s semi-synthetic or fully-synthetic. Nick may be able to say whether he found using 5W-30 oil instead of 5W-40 in his earlier Ducato X250 vans had any adverse effect (assuming that he did this) but I would not have thought it should.

 

This previous forum discussion is probably more relevant to your enquiry than the link in your above posting.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Which-grade-of-engine-oil-for-a-Ducato-160-multi-jet-/39109/?DisplayType=flat&setcookie=1&go=Go

[Robbo]

Many thanks Derek for your very helpful and detailed response.

 

My forum search seemed to miss the August 2015 thread you posted. This conveniently lead me to a November 2012 thread (Which Selenia oil for a Ducato Multijet) which included a post by Nick Fisher dated 15 Nov 2012, 11.19am, extract as follows:

 

To summarise;

 

10W40 oil is perfectly fine for every Sevel type engine up to 2006 Euro3 engines.

5W40 semi or fully syn oil is required for Euro4 engines from 2006 (x250) 5W30 is also fine.

5W30 Low SAPs oil is ONLY required for 2011 onwards Euro5 engines. It won't harm any older engines since 2006 but will be a waste of money.

Don't use 5W40 in anything built before 2006 and that includes all Euro 1,2 and 3 vehicles. It will lead to oil leaks.

 

On this basis, it would appear that a 5W-30 fully synthetic oil is suitable (or in Nick's words "fine") for my 160 Multijet, Euro 4 engine, dated 2008.

 

I now feel more comfortable with the change from 5W-40 semi to 5W-30 fully synthetic. I'll check with the garage with respect to whether the fully synthetic oil is miscible with semi synthetic without an intermediate flush.

 

I'll report back, re my discussions with the garage - they've always been very supportive and helpful in the past.

 

Thanks again Derek :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

Robbo - 2019-03-14 7:16 PM

 

...I now feel more comfortable with the change from 5W-40 semi to 5W-30 fully synthetic. I'll check with the garage with respect to whether the fully synthetic oil is miscible with semi synthetic without an intermediate flush...

 

Whether mixing different types of engine oil is likely to be harmful is somthing you’ll find plenty of references to on-line.

 

https://tinyurl.com/y424q283

 

A 'semi-synthetic' oil is a mixture of mineral oil and synthetic oil, whereas a ‘fully synthetic’ oil is 100% synthetic. If the latter is mixed with the former, the former’s percentage of synthetic oil increases, and if the former is mixed with the latter, the latter’s original 100% of synthetic oil will decrease. Simplistically, if it’s assumed that a 100% synthetic oil will be superior to a semi-synthetic ‘mixture’, it’s preferable to add fully synthetic oil to semi-synthetic oil rather than vice versa. But as long as the two types of oils are suitable for the vehicle (ie. they have a suitable viscosity and specification) there should be no problem mixing them.

 

I said above

 

The engine-lubricant recommended for a Ducato X250 built in 2008 was SELENIA WR that (as you've said) is a 5W-40 ‘semi-synthetic’ oil.

 

However, a year or so later, the engine-oil being recommended was SELENIA WR P.E. that is 5W-30 and ‘fully-synthetic’ (though the contemporary Ducato Owner Handbook refers to it as a “synthetic base lubricant”).

 

That statement was based on accessing Fiat’s ELUM database and browsing through Ducato Owner Handbook files. I now see that the 2008-model handbook shown on the database jumps at October 2008 to a 2011 publication-date handbook, so (as Nick said) it’s likely that Fiat would have recommended 5W-40 semi-synthetic oil for ALL Euro 4 Ducato motors.

 

Fiat Oil specifications are listed here

 

https://www.oilspecifications.org/fiat.php

 

The ‘Euro 4’ 5W-40 oil should have been to Fiat 9.55535-N2 and the ‘Euro 5’ 5W-30 oil should be to Fiat 9.55535-S1 specification. Nick’s 2012 advice was based on relative cost, with the assumption that 5W-30 low-SAPS oil would be significantly more expensive than the 5W-40 oil, but that may well not be so in 2019.

 

I suggest you forget about mixability/flushing and (assuming that it’s not shown on the invoice) just ask your local water company exactly what 5W-30 oil they put in. Then you will be able to confirm that the oil meets Fiat’s recommended specification.

[euroserv]

Hello,

 

Derek is completely correct and we did indeed find that as more vehicles used 5W30 fully synthetic Low Saps oil, the price per litre did reduce from the early, rather startling prices. We used 5W30 in all of our X250 vehicles (from 2007) with no issues at all so that we only needed to keep one oil in stock.

The change from Semi Synthetic to Synthetic oil can in theory be problematic as some oils are better at mixing than others. We used an oil that was described as 'Highly Miscible' to make sure that any residual Semi Synthetic oil in the engine did not suffer undesirable effects. In reality though, most oils are considered highly miscible now and the very small amount of residual oil is very unlikely to be problematic. I think it would be wise to make sure that the oil and filter are changed again in twelve months with the same synthetic oil regardless of mileage and it goes without saying that any top-ups will now have to be with the new oil type. Sticking with the same brand is also a good idea. I recommend that you purchase a litre or two of the same oil that the garage has put in the engine and keep it with your vehicle.

 

While an oil may bear the correct approvals and be the right recipe for a given vehicle, the quality of the oil can still vary considerably. The specification requires that at the time of testing a new batch of the lubricant, it meets (not necessarily exceeds) that specification. The effects of heat, stress and contamination on the oil during it's life in the engine will affect some cheaper oils to the extent that they do not stay 'in grade'. Always try to buy oils from reputable suppliers and while the most expensive may not be worth it, the cheapest may fall short. As with absolutely everything; you get what you pay for.

N

[Robbo]

Thank you again Derek for todays post.

 

As you suggest, I'll find out the brand of oil used and compare that with the Fiat spec. I agree, this is the simplest approach.

 

I've just checked the publication date of my Fiat handbook and it is 04/2009. Perhaps the English version took longer to publish ?

 

I noted your earlier comments regarding the different oil grades shown between earlier and later manuals for the Euro 4.....very useful information.

 

As an aside, I checked the dipstick on arriving home from the service and found it to be 10mm above the max mark (the van was level). I've ordered a dipstick tube suction pump to correct this as I didn't want to drive 10 miles back to the garage with excess oil. This will give me the opportunity to visually inspect the oil as it did look quite greyish on the dipstick. The garage have since confirmed that they drained the oil via the sump plug.

 

Another cause for concern was the colour of the ring-pull on the dipstick. It is RED. I'm sure mine was originally YELLOW - but could be mistaken. The garage have since confirmed that the dipstick wouldn't have been interchanged with another as they drained the oil via the sump plug. I've googled this red/yellow dipstick colour coding but drawn a blank. Perhaps someone on here will know the significance of this dipstick colour coding.

 

I'm tending towards doing my own servicing in the future :D

[Keithl]

Robbo - 2019-03-15 11:46 AM

 

Another cause for concern was the colour of the ring-pull on the dipstick. It is RED. I'm sure mine was originally YELLOW - but could be mistaken. The garage have since confirmed that the dipstick wouldn't have been interchanged with another as they drained the oil via the sump plug. I've googled this red/yellow dipstick colour coding but drawn a blank. Perhaps someone on here will know the significance of this dipstick colour coding.

 

Typically a YELLOW dipstick will signify to check oil level when COLD, and a RED dipstick to check when HOT.

 

Keith.

[Robbo]

Keithl - 2019-03-15 11:49 AM

 

Robbo - 2019-03-15 11:46 AM

 

Another cause for concern was the colour of the ring-pull on the dipstick. It is RED. I'm sure mine was originally YELLOW - but could be mistaken. The garage have since confirmed that the dipstick wouldn't have been interchanged with another as they drained the oil via the sump plug. I've googled this red/yellow dipstick colour coding but drawn a blank. Perhaps someone on here will know the significance of this dipstick colour coding.

 

Typically a YELLOW dipstick will signify to check oil level when COLD, and a RED dipstick to check when HOT.

 

Keith.

 

Many thanks Keith - that makes sense. Never thought of that one 8-)

 

Edit: just checked the manual and it does say to check the oil a few minutes (about 5) after the engine has stopped. You learn something new ever day, haha !!!

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that the red/yellow distinction Keith mentions was also brought up by “aandy” here

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/gas-working-but-oil-level-over-max/49892/

 

I don’t recall ever reading authorative advice about this (Andy’s comment was 2ndhand and you’ll note Alanb’s follow-up). I’ve just assumed that my Ducato’s dipstick has a red ‘handle' (rather than the more usual yellow one) because that’s the colour Fiat has chosen, rather than the colour having any significance regarding how and when the motor’s oil-level should be checked.

 

This link

 

https://trustmygarage.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/what-colours-are-under-your-bonnet/

 

includes the following advice

 

Oil filler caps and dipstick handles are often yellow and may have information or pictograms embossed into them.

 

Unless the handbook indicates otherwise, oil should be checked after the engine has been running for a while then switched off and left for a few minutes. It should not be checked with a completely cold engine. Make sure the car is parked on level ground before attempting to check the oil.

 

This advert shows a Ducato/Boxer/Relay dipstick assembly with the dipstick having a yellow handle

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEUGEOT-BOXER-CITROEN-RELAY-FIAT-DUCATO-3-0HDI-3-0JTD-OIL-DIPSTICK-GUIDE-/371974965494

 

If the vehicle’s owner decides to check the oil-level when the motor is stone-cold and the vehicle’s manufacturer has advised differently, it should be expected that the dipstick’s reading will be ‘higher’ due to the oil having been given more opportunity to drain down into the sump. But as you’ve checked the level with the motor warm and with the vehicle level, it may reasonably be assumed that the garage over-filled the motor (a common on-line complaint).

 

Regarding the Ducato Owner Handbooks on the Fiat ELUM website not correctly marrying up with the vehicle date, it’s just an error and it’s the same whatever language the Handbook is in. As long as a Ducato owner has the hardcopy Handbook that’s appropriate for his/her vehicle, the ELUM database being out of step shouldn’t normally matter. There will usually be several editions of a given handbook to update/correct the original edition and whoever has the thankless task of overseeing the ELUM database is unlikely to be picky about exactly matching the editions to the vehicle-dates. At least it’s possible to view/download a useful Ducato Owner Handbook if you don’t have the paper version.

[Robbo]

Thanks Derek regarding your comments about the colour coding on the dipstick. It's reassuring to know that your Fiat dipstick also has a red handle.

 

Nevertheless, it's still a bit mystifying that your ebay link to "replacement dipstick units for the Ducato 3 litre" showed a yellow handle.

 

However, I'm now more than reassured that the garage didn't inadvertently replace the wrong dipstick.

 

My suspicions re the overfilling were initially triggered by the 5 bars (max) on the dashboard display. Normally after a service, 4 bars are displayed which relates to a dipstick reading of just below maximum.

 

My oil suction pump should be arriving today, so hopefully I'll soon be up and running again.

 

Many thanks Derek and Keith for your helpful advice.

 

Also, a big thanks to Nick (euroserv) for confirming the suitability of the 5W-30 fully synthetic oil for X250 from 2007 onwards. I do have the oil changed annually but will get a small quantity from the garage for top-up purposes....good advice.

[Derek Uzzell]

Robbo - 2019-03-16 9:33 AM

 

...Nevertheless, it's still a bit mystifying that your ebay link to "replacement dipstick units for the Ducato 3 litre" showed a yellow handle...

 

 

My Ducato has a 2.3litre motor, whereas yours has a 3.0litre motor and (unsurprisingly really) the dipstick assemblies differ and each has its own Part Number.

 

Based on on-line photos/adverts, the ’norm’ seems to be that the dipstick for the 2.3litre motor has a red ‘handle’ while the dipstick for the 3,0litre motor has a yellow handle - however, your motorhome’s dipstick has a red handle.

 

Have you owned your motorhome from new? If all 3.0litre motors should have a yellow-handle dipstick, that leaves the possibility that your dipstick may be incorrect.

[Deneb]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-16 11:54 AM

 

Based on on-line photos/adverts, the ’norm’ seems to be that the dipstick for the 2.3litre motor has a red ‘handle’ while the dipstick for the 3,0litre motor has a yellow handle - however, your motorhome’s dipstick has a red handle.

 

I'll just throw in another observation from someone who has been under the bonnet of literally thousands of different vehicles during my lifetime.

 

When plastics and non-metal resins began to be used for various items such as dipstick handles, it was common for them to be a variety of colours which I can only assume accorded to the manufacturer's whim, but red, black and an off white/cream/beige colour seemed most popular.

 

More recently, as engines have become shrouded in covers and owners are being actively discouraged from delving to deeply into the mechanical underbody, I have the impression that yellow has been pretty much standardised as the colour used to denote items which the manufacturer expects or "allows" the vehicle owner to locate and remove to complete recommended checks, topping up with appropriate fluids, etc.

 

I'm not saying that I am right, but it is certainly the impression that I have formed over the recent evolution of engine bay appearances!

[Robbo]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-16 11:54 AM

 

Robbo - 2019-03-16 9:33 AM

 

...Nevertheless, it's still a bit mystifying that your ebay link to "replacement dipstick units for the Ducato 3 litre" showed a yellow handle...

 

 

My Ducato has a 2.3litre motor, whereas yours has a 3.0litre motor and (unsurprisingly really) the dipstick assemblies differ and each has its own Part Number.

 

Based on on-line photos/adverts, the ’norm’ seems to be that the dipstick for the 2.3litre motor has a red ‘handle’ while the dipstick for the 3,0litre motor has a yellow handle - however, your motorhome’s dipstick has a red handle.

 

Have you owned your motorhome from new? If all 3.0litre motors should have a yellow-handle dipstick, that leaves the possibility that your dipstick may be incorrect.

 

Thanks Derek......on thinking about it more, I can't really fault your logic.

 

Certainly, when I opened up the bonnet (after the service) the first thing that jumped out at me was the red colour of the dipstick......I was very sure it was originally yellow. But then my 15 reg VW polo is yellow, so started to question my own sanity !!!

 

I've owned the van since 2012 when it was 2 years old. The previous owner had all servicing carried out at a garage.

 

I think I need to contact other owners of the Fiat 3 litre model, possibly via the Fiat forum.

 

The only consolation is the dashboard display seems to correlate fairly well with the dipstick readings. I'll be draining down the excess oil tomorrow so will see how that affects the dashboard display.

 

Thanks for the post by Deneb but I really think I need to investigate a bit further for my own peace of mind.

[Derek Uzzell]

The OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) part number for the dipstick assembly for a Fiat Ducato X250 with 2.3 litre motor is apparently 504352087 and the images produced by a GOOGLE-search using that number show the assembly as hsving a dipstick with a red ‘handle’.

 

https://tinyurl.com/y5bpz4c6

 

The OEM part number for the dispstick assembly for a Fiat Ducato X250 with 3.0 litre motor is apparenty 504187228 and the images produced by a GOOGLE-search using that number show the assembly as having a dipstick with a yellow ‘handle’.

 

https://tinyurl.com/yxs9cny8

 

Although the OEM part number for the dipstick assembly for the 2.3 litre motor differs from the OEM part number for the dipstick assembly for the 3.0 litre motor, it’s possible that the dipsticks are interchangeable even though the complete assemblies are not. But the only realistic way to check this would be to carefully compare a ‘red handle’ dipstick with a ‘yellow handle’ one.

 

As there must be other forum members with a 3.0litre Ducato X250, I’ve asked if they can confirm the colour of their dipstick’s handle.

 

(My Skoda Roomster’s dipstick handle is orange, though it’s plain that Skoda also fits yellow-handle dipsticks to some of their cars. I can’t say I’ve ever been aware of the colour of the dipstick’s handle on any of the vehicles I’ve owned. Before I checked as a result of this discussion, I didn’t KNOW that my Ducato’s dipstick had a red handle and, if someone had asked me, I would have guessed that the handle would be yellow. As Deneb has said, dipstick plastic handles have been various different colours and I’m very doubtful that there’s ever been a link between the colour used and the oil-level checking procedure.)

[Deneb]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-17 8:06 AM

 

The OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) part number for the dipstick assembly for a Fiat Ducato X250 with 2.3 litre motor is apparenty 504352087 and the images produced by a GOOGLE-search using that number show the assembly as hsving a dipstick with a red ‘handle’.

 

My X290 2.3 150 has the same part number 504352087 listed for the dipstick assembly (complete) and mine has a yellow handle.

 

I really wouldn't read too much into this.

 

If the OP is concerned to the extent that he cannot be certain of the oil level in his engine, the only reliable solution would be to order a new dipstick from a Fiat dealer. If he also has the electronic oil level indication on his instrument cluster, and the two indications are broadly compatible, he could be reasonably certain that the oil level is correctly indicated.

 

The oil level is not critical as long as it is between the minimum and maximum indicated levels, and on these engines it is best that the engine is never filled to the absolute maximum indicated level anyway.

[Robbo]

Many thanks Derek for posting the new thread.

 

Thanks also for Deneb's latest post. There does seem to be a trend amonst manufacturers to adopt the yellow colour for more recent engines for reasons as described by Deneb in his first post. Yes, I've got the electronic dashboard display for comparison purposes.

 

Just a thought. The 3 litre motor is an Iveco engine whilst the smaller motors are Fiat.

 

Having a bit of a problem at the moment threading the plastic tube of my suction pump down the dipstick tube. It gets stuck half-way on a bend. Luckily the tube is one-piece so in no danger of losing anything.

[Deneb]

Robbo - 2019-03-17 11:57 AM

Just a thought. The 3 litre motor is an Iveco engine whilst the smaller motors are Fiat.

 

They are all Iveco/Fiat joint venture engines and also fitted in Iveco vans.

 

The parent or holding company name changes with the direction of the wind, but you might variously find "Fiat", "Iveco", or "Fiat Powertrain Technologies" (FPT) on the engine castings.

 

My Ducato 2.3 multijet engine (2016 Euro 5+) has "Iveco" cast into the cam cover.

[Robbo]

Many thanks Deneb for clarifying that point re Iveco versus Fiat power plants. Wasn't aware of the close overlapping relationship.

 

Just thought there might be a tenuous link there somewhere between the red/yellow handle mystery, with respect to older engines :-D