Fiat Ducato Reliability and Ride Quality

[TheEscapist]

Hello everyone

 

First of all, can anyone comment on reliability of recent Fiat Ducato chassis and 2.3l multijet drivetrains?

 

My Carthago motorhome was dealer-spec with this so not much I can do now but I was told by several dealers before I ordered that it’s a good choice for the motorhome.

 

Also, I wondered if anyone has driven both the Fiat Ducato and Iveco Daily and can comment n the ride quality? Not much I can do now for the Carthago but wondering if the ride quality is indeed better witthe Ducato as I’ve been told.

 

Interestingly the new 2019 Iveco Daily 4x4 is coming up as a favourite chassis and drivetrains for an adventure / expedition vehicle but comments are that it’s great off-road but a little harsh on-road. I d8nt mind that for that vehicle but want a smooth ride for the Carthago so hopefully the Ducato was the right choice!

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

 

[Don636]

I have a 5 year old Fiat Ducato PVC with the 150 engine and Comfortmatic. I usually drive large estates (Volvo and BMW since 2004) with auto gearboxes and powerful engines so am used to comfort, power and good handling.

I thought that I would find a Fiat Ducato, in comparison, to be slow, cumbersome, noisy and uncomfortable with poor handling. On the whole I have been pleasantly surprised by how it drives. It is by no means quick but easily keeps up with the traffic and I never feel as if I am slowing anyone up. It is noisy compared to a car and I can’t comfortably listen to the radio but it is not so bad as to be a problem. I have two artificial hips and can easily get uncomfortable if the seating is poor but I actually find the Ducato seating position to be fine for 2-3 hours without getting sore. I think it handles OK for such a large vehicle but the ride is rather firm and the suspension does crash a bit but, again, not so much as to be uncomfortable. For me the best aspect of my Ducato is the auto gearbox as it makes the whole experience so much more relaxed and smooth. It does have a couple of minor idiosyncrasies that you need to work with but the positives far out way these and Iwould not entertain a motorhome without the auto gearbox.

As for reliability I can say that, in 5 years, it has never broken down or missed a beat. I had a problem with a leaking scuttle which was replaced under warranty and no problems since. The remote key lost its connection with the van and had to be reprogrammed for £60. I look after the van and there is no rust other than some surface rust on suspension components and underslung spare wheel but I check this every year and keep these parts freshly painted so probably better than new. Fuel consumption started off at 28ish but since passing 10k it has increased to 30-32 mpg.

 

[bounty hunter]

Paul

You are confusing me.

Carthago Liner is built on an Iveco chassis but you say " I d8nt mind that for that vehicle but want a smooth ride for the Carthago so hopefully the Ducato was the right choice! "

What are you buying?

 

John

 

[Billggski]

Looks like it can be built on either.

https://www.carthago.com/en/motorhomes/integrated-comfort-liner-class/liner-for-two/

https://www.carthago.com/en/motorhomes/integrated-comfort-liner-class/liner-for-two/standard-features/

[globebuster]

If you're going for the I 53 4.5 tonne/130hp or the 5 tonne/150hp Ducato - I would think they might be a bit under-powered?

 

But I guess you've driven it, so I wondered why you were asking the question regarding handling and I assume you didn't think it under-powered.....

 

Despite the odd glitch, I've found Ducato's to be a pretty reliable base vehicle.

 

Nice van you've chosen, but anything much over 7mts would be too restrictive for me - unless you have a decent motorbike [or trailer a small car] and don't mind staying away from smaller towns and villages.

[TheEscapist]

bounty hunter - 2019-03-10 10:26 PM

 

Paul

You are confusing me.

Carthago Liner is built on an Iveco chassis but you say " I d8nt mind that for that vehicle but want a smooth ride for the Carthago so hopefully the Ducato was the right choice! "

What are you buying?

 

John

 

Liner for Two is built on both Fiat Ducato or Iveco Daily chassis. Mine is the former.

[Derek Uzzell]

Specification details of Carthago’s “Liner-For-Two” models are best identified by looking at the price-list here

 

https://www.carthago.com/fileadmin/user_upload/download/2019/EN_PL_Integriert_2019_1.pdf

 

Regarding the Fiat version, it’s possible to upgrade from the standard 130HP powerplant (that nobody in their right mind would choose!) to the 150HP or 177HP motor, with Comfort-Matic transmission as an option. Me, I’d want the 177HP motor.

 

It’s to be expected that the ride quallity of the standard vehicle using the advised 5.5bar (80psi) front and rear tyre pressures will be ‘firm’. To address this, Carthago offers the option of AL-KO Premium X2 pneumatic rear suspension, or AL-KO Premium X4 pneumatic front and rear suspension. Realistically, such options need to be specified when the motorhome is ordered.

 

I believe Paul has yet to take delivery of his Carthago motorhome, but I note in an earlier forum thread that he said "Note I won’t be on sites with others too often. Looking for the quiet off the beaten track lifestyle”. On that basis, I would have opted for the Iveco-based version that has rear-wheel drive.

[TheEscapist]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 9:23 AM

 

Specification details of Carthago’s “Liner-For-Two” models are best identified by looking at the price-list here

 

https://www.carthago.com/fileadmin/user_upload/download/2019/EN_PL_Integriert_2019_1.pdf

 

Regarding the Fiat version, it’s possible to upgrade from the standard 130HP powerplant (that nobody in their right mind would choose!) to the 150HP or 177HP motor, with Comfort-Matic transmission as an option. Me, I’d want the 177HP motor.

 

It’s to be expected that the ride quallity of the standard vehicle using the advised 5.5bar (80psi) front and rear tyre pressures will be ‘firm’. To address this, Carthago offers the option of AL-KO Premium X2 pneumatic rear suspension, or AL-KO Premium X4 pneumatic front and rear suspension. Realistically, such options need to be specified when the motorhome is ordered.

 

I believe Paul has yet to take delivery of his Carthago motorhome, but I note in an earlier forum thread that he said "Note I won’t be on sites with others too often. Looking for the quiet off the beaten track lifestyle”. On that basis, I would have opted for the Iveco-based version that has rear-wheel drive.

 

My spec is Ducato, uprated engine, auto box and uprated payload to 4800 kgs which comes as standard with rear air suspension. It’s always going to be a trade off somewhere and whilst I prefer rear wheel drive, 4x4 is even better but here front wheel will have to do. Just hope the front doesn’t ride too harshly.

[TheEscapist]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 9:23 AM

 

Specification details of Carthago’s “Liner-For-Two” models are best identified by looking at the price-list here

 

https://www.carthago.com/fileadmin/user_upload/download/2019/EN_PL_Integriert_2019_1.pdf

 

Regarding the Fiat version, it’s possible to upgrade from the standard 130HP powerplant (that nobody in their right mind would choose!) to the 150HP or 177HP motor, with Comfort-Matic transmission as an option. Me, I’d want the 177HP motor.

 

It’s to be expected that the ride quallity of the standard vehicle using the advised 5.5bar (80psi) front and rear tyre pressures will be ‘firm’. To address this, Carthago offers the option of AL-KO Premium X2 pneumatic rear suspension, or AL-KO Premium X4 pneumatic front and rear suspension. Realistically, such options need to be specified when the motorhome is ordered.

 

I believe Paul has yet to take delivery of his Carthago motorhome, but I note in an earlier forum thread that he said "Note I won’t be on sites with others too often. Looking for the quiet off the beaten track lifestyle”. On that basis, I would have opted for the Iveco-based version that has rear-wheel drive.

 

Problem with Iveco is until 2019 model it lacked many safety features such as air bags. Ducato has much more.

[Derek Uzzell]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-11 8:41 AM

 

My spec is Ducato, uprated engine...

 

But uprated to what?

 

My Ducato-based Rapido has the 2.3litre 150HP motor and, while it’s plenty adequate for a vehicle that weighs around 3100kg in normal holiday trim, it’s inevitable that the motor’s performance would be blunted if asked to drag along a motorhome weighing (at least) another 1000kg.

 

Carthago states that there is a "reinforced spring on the front axle” (whatever that means), so couple that with a high front-tyre pressure and the ride’s unlikely to be soft. Whether you’ll find this problematical remains to be seen.

[TheEscapist]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 10:18 AM

 

TheEscapist - 2019-03-11 8:41 AM

 

My spec is Ducato, uprated engine...

 

But uprated to what?

 

My Ducato-based Rapido has the 2.3litre 150HP motor and, while it’s plenty adequate for a vehicle that weighs around 3100kg in normal holiday trim, it’s inevitable that the motor’s performance would be blunted if asked to drag along a motorhome weighing (at least) another 1000kg.

 

Carthago states that there is a "reinforced spring on the front axle” (whatever that means), so couple that with a high front-tyre pressure and the ride’s unlikely to be soft. Whether you’ll find this problematical remains to be seen.

 

Full details:

 

Engine uprated to 180hp

Payload uprated to 4,800 kgs (this automatically adds the reinforced front axle and rear air suspension)

Automatic gearbox

Alloy wheels.

 

Maybe best I add the full spec here.

No, I didn't pay full price. I get a huge discount as it was a dealer order, not mine, ut I think its a good spec.

I will then add dealer fit items - solar panels, air con, third battery etc once I decide what I need exactly.

 

The dealer is very good and not pushing anything. It's me asking what I need and him responding.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

[TheEscapist]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-11 10:35 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 10:18 AM

 

TheEscapist - 2019-03-11 8:41 AM

 

My spec is Ducato, uprated engine...

 

But uprated to what?

 

My Ducato-based Rapido has the 2.3litre 150HP motor and, while it’s plenty adequate for a vehicle that weighs around 3100kg in normal holiday trim, it’s inevitable that the motor’s performance would be blunted if asked to drag along a motorhome weighing (at least) another 1000kg.

 

Carthago states that there is a "reinforced spring on the front axle” (whatever that means), so couple that with a high front-tyre pressure and the ride’s unlikely to be soft. Whether you’ll find this problematical remains to be seen.

 

Full details:

 

Engine uprated to 180hp

Payload uprated to 4,800 kgs (this automatically adds the reinforced front axle and rear air suspension)

Automatic gearbox

Alloy wheels.

 

Maybe best I add the full spec here.

No, I didn't pay full price. I get a huge discount as it was a dealer order, not mine, ut I think its a good spec.

I will then add dealer fit items - solar panels, air con, third battery etc once I decide what I need exactly.

 

The dealer is very good and not pushing anything. It's me asking what I need and him responding.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Can't add the file as too large but Carthago website has the downloadable brochure and price list with full options.

 

[Brock]

Paul,I suggest you ascertain the details of the vehicle you are getting, or aspire to, and if you want a smooth ride, consider full air suspension if its not already standard.

 

I doubt neither the Fiat or Iveco will provide a smooth ride in their basic trim. Both may need air suspension aids.

 

By accident, the front springs on my Hymer were fitted with heavier duty springs to allow an axle loading of 2000kg instead of 1850kg. It is an awful ride but it is tough. The rear is an Alko chassis which also provides an awful ride although semi air suspension on the rear has tamed the worst. My record of Fiat over many years is that they are reliable commercial vehicles which are passable as motorhomes. Fiat/Iveco seem to have a strong reputation in the commercial market for building good powertrains from what I read in the media.

 

My local Ambulance Authority specifies, as most do from what I hear, full air ride on ambulances. My son is on his third RWD Iveco Daily [changes it every year]. As he carries fragile goods over long distances in Britain, his van has the biggest engine [205bhp] and the gearing for motorway driving [Hi-matic International]. He also has full air suspension fitted so his breakages are minimal. He does just over 100,000 miles a year. Never broken down. Having ridden in his van, it is so much better than my Fiat motorhome in every way but it was much more expensive and better equipped.

 

Lenny the Hymer guru used to post on this forum and now inhabits Motorhome Fun has been a fan of the AlKo ride but on his latest van, he's switched to full air - much better.

 

[Laurence]

Paul,

If you carry on with all these 'what if's' then you won't enjoy the lovely MH you have bought. You will be getting rid of it in 12 months instead of enjoying this premium vehicle for the next 10 years.

 

It is what it is and you have made your choice. These are van chassis's and they are not built for ride comfort. Then they have this large permanent weight dropped on them, so they are always under pretty full load. If you want better ride comfort then - as many have suggested - go for full air suspension. My only tip is that if you opt for this, I would go for the Goldschmidt and not the VB.

 

You also asked a couple of days ago about off-grid expedition vehicles, so I'm wondering if you have actually committed to this Carthago?

 

Regards,

 

 

[TheEscapist]

Laurence - 2019-03-11 11:46 AM

 

Paul,

If you carry on with all these 'what if's' then you won't enjoy the lovely MH you have bought. You will be getting rid of it in 12 months instead of enjoying this premium vehicle for the next 10 years.

 

It is what it is and you have made your choice. These are van chassis's and they are not built for ride comfort. Then they have this large permanent weight dropped on them, so they are always under pretty full load. If you want better ride comfort then - as many have suggested - go for full air suspension. My only tip is that if you opt for this, I would go for the Goldschmidt and not the VB.

 

You also asked a couple of days ago about off-grid expedition vehicles, so I'm wondering if you have actually committed to this Carthago?

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Thanks for your thoughts but I'm just asking opinions. I'm learning all the time.

 

It doesn't mean I haven't committed to the motorhome though I'm sure I can cancel as I've only paid a 5k deposit at this stage and the motorhome is in demand.

 

I did lots of research before ordering this Liner for Two but haven't driven one as they are quite rare but I like the rear lounge concept to much (and the styling) I'm not sure I'd find anything as good. If you know of anything, let me know!

 

Maybe after a year if I don't like the ride Ic an add full air suspension. I'm used to that from my Range Rovers so you're right. I need to prepare for a harder ride... but I have rear air ;)

 

As already mentioned the off-grid vehicle is a separate project.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

 

[TheEscapist]

Brock - 2019-03-11 11:03 AM

 

Paul,I suggest you ascertain the details of the vehicle you are getting, or aspire to, and if you want a smooth ride, consider full air suspension if its not already standard.

 

I doubt neither the Fiat or Iveco will provide a smooth ride in their basic trim. Both may need air suspension aids.

 

By accident, the front springs on my Hymer were fitted with heavier duty springs to allow an axle loading of 2000kg instead of 1850kg. It is an awful ride but it is tough. The rear is an Alko chassis which also provides an awful ride although semi air suspension on the rear has tamed the worst. My record of Fiat over many years is that they are reliable commercial vehicles which are passable as motorhomes. Fiat/Iveco seem to have a strong reputation in the commercial market for building good powertrains from what I read in the media.

 

My local Ambulance Authority specifies, as most do from what I hear, full air ride on ambulances. My son is on his third RWD Iveco Daily [changes it every year]. As he carries fragile goods over long distances in Britain, his van has the biggest engine [205bhp] and the gearing for motorway driving [Hi-matic International]. He also has full air suspension fitted so his breakages are minimal. He does just over 100,000 miles a year. Never broken down. Having ridden in his van, it is so much better than my Fiat motorhome in every way but it was much more expensive and better equipped.

 

Lenny the Hymer guru used to post on this forum and now inhabits Motorhome Fun has been a fan of the AlKo ride but on his latest van, he's switched to full air - much better.

 

I'll definitely look at full air!

[Derek Uzzell]

As Paul has said above, the Carthago motorhome planned for delivery of next month will have the 2.3litre “180” motor and rear-axle pneumatic suspension - both wise specification choices.

 

The July 2016 issue of “Camping-Car Magazine” contained an article comparing three Carthago Chic C-line I 4.2 motorhomes fitted with AL-KO’s ACS/ALC (evidently no longer retrofittable), “Air Plus” (now called Premium X2 and what Paul’s motorhome will have) or “Air Premium X4” suspension systems, using experienced motorcaravanners as the testers. The quoted cost of retrofitting “Air Plus” was €4580 and involved two days in the workshop, while the cost of “Air Premium X4” was given as €8690 with three workshop-days. Interestingly, there was no consensus among the testers as to which system was best, with some people disliking the X4 front-and-rear axle pneumatic system for its ‘floatiness’.

 

KONI markets their FSD front struts for Ducato that are claimed to marry comfort with improved stability.

 

https://www.koni.com/en-US/News-Events/News-Releases/New-product-release-FSD-for-Fiat-Ducato-camper/

 

I don’t know what the cost might be to replace the existing struts/springs on Paul’s Carthago with KONI FSDs, but it would undoubtedly be less than retrofitting an ‘air’ system.

 

The proof of the Carthago’s ride quality will be in the driving and (assuming that the vehicle-when-loaded axle-weight allows it) lowering the front-axle tyre pressure by (say) 0.5bar (7psi) can make quite a difference.

 

(I strongly suggest that Paul carefully reads the terms and conditions of the purchase-contract he has (presumably) signed. These contracts can have very sharp teeth and cancelling the contract can involve the buyer in much more financial loss than just forfeiting a deposit.)

[TheEscapist]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 12:23 PM

 

As Paul has said above, the Carthago motorhome planned for delivery of next month will have the 2.3litre “180” motor and rear-axle pneumatic suspension - both wise specification choices.

 

The July 2016 issue of “Camping-Car Magazine” contained an article comparing three Carthago Chic C-line I 4.2 motorhomes fitted with AL-KO’s ACS/ALC (evidently no longer retrofittable), “Air Plus” (now called Premium X2 and what Paul’s motorhome will have) or “Air Premium X4” suspension systems, using experienced motorcaravanners as the testers. The quoted cost of retrofitting “Air Plus” was €4580 and involved two days in the workshop, while the cost of “Air Premium X4” was given as €8690 with three workshop-days. Interestingly, there was no consensus among the testers as to which system was best, with some people disliking the X4 front-and-rear axle pneumatic system for its ‘floatiness’.

 

KONI markets their FSD front struts for Ducato that are claimed to marry comfort with improved stability.

 

https://www.koni.com/en-US/News-Events/News-Releases/New-product-release-FSD-for-Fiat-Ducato-camper/

 

I don’t know what the cost might be to replace the existing struts/springs on Paul’s Carthago with KONI FSDs, but it would undoubtedly be less than retrofitting an ‘air’ system.

 

The proof of the Carthago’s ride quality will be in the driving and (assuming that the vehicle-when-loaded axle-weight allows it) lowering the front-axle tyre pressure by (say) 0.5bar (7psi) can make quite a difference.

 

(I strongly suggest that Paul carefully reads the terms and conditions of the purchase-contract he has (presumably) signed. These contracts can have very sharp teeth and cancelling the contract can involve the buyer in much more financial loss than just forfeiting a deposit.)

 

Thank you Derek. That's very helpful.

 

You are correct on floatiness of full air, which the dealer also mentioned.

 

As a comparison, I changed last year from an older large Range Rover to the Range Rover Sport with dynamic mode as my wife always felt sick with any cornering in the old one. The new Range Rover avoids this.

 

It's always going to be a trade off but I feel better forewarned by all this and the Kone suggestion sounds good too if the ride is too firm. The dealer (Chelston) sell lots of Carthagos so I'm sure they know the issues and any solutions.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-11 9:35 AM

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 10:18 AM

TheEscapist - 2019-03-11 8:41 AM

My spec is Ducato, uprated engine...

But uprated to what?

My Ducato-based Rapido has the 2.3litre 150HP motor and, while it’s plenty adequate for a vehicle that weighs around 3100kg in normal holiday trim, it’s inevitable that the motor’s performance would be blunted if asked to drag along a motorhome weighing (at least) another 1000kg.

Carthago states that there is a "reinforced spring on the front axle” (whatever that means), so couple that with a high front-tyre pressure and the ride’s unlikely to be soft. Whether you’ll find this problematical remains to be seen.

Full details:

Engine uprated to 180hp

Payload uprated to 4,800 kgs (this automatically adds the reinforced front axle and rear air suspension)

Automatic gearbox

Alloy wheels.

Maybe best I add the full spec here.

No, I didn't pay full price. I get a huge discount as it was a dealer order, not mine, ut I think its a good spec.

I will then add dealer fit items - solar panels, air con, third battery etc once I decide what I need exactly.

The dealer is very good and not pushing anything. It's me asking what I need and him responding.

Cheers

Paul

You haven't said which Ducato chassis your van is mounded upon, but I'm assuming it must be the Maxi with AlKo at the rear? 2,100kg front axle, 2,400kg rear axle?

 

Motorhomes are relatively heavy, and so are their wheels and tyres (albeit you say alloy wheels, they won't be significantly lighter than the standard steel variety - but every little helps!). This more or less dictates that the unsprung masses are high so, when a motorhome (or any of the commercial vehicles on which they are based) is driven unladen, they bounce all over the road. Usually, with reasonable load added, things calm down a bit.

 

The problem, in my experience, is that for design reasons, and for cheapness of production, the suspension travel distances are fairly minimal, so the energy transmitted through the springs when on uneven or potholed roads has to be absorbed over a short distance, with the result that greater impact loads are inevitably transmitted to the body shell. (If you've aven driven a Citroen 2CV or Dyane, you'll know the pluses and minuses of long travel suspension! :-D)

 

The next problem is that instead of a nice rigid steel panel van shell, you have a relatively flexible chassis on which is mounted a "bodyshell" that is made from a variety of relatively loosely jointed components, so when the road shocks hit the chassis, this relatively flexible body vibrates, and anything that isn't rigidly mounted to it rattles. The rattles, IMO, exacerbate the impression of a harsh ride.

 

Air suspension should give a more compliant ride, but it cannot give of its absolute best, other than on relatively smooth and pot hole free surfaces, because of those relatively short suspension distances. There must be at least some shocks that cannot be amortised by the air cushions. In your case, it seems you have air at the rear which, assuming it is on the low AlKo chassis (which seems to me to have even shorter suspension travel than the standard van cart springs!) should help to reduce the bangs and clatter from the back end.

 

However, you have normal steel springs at the front. I'm guessing that the "reinforced" front axle is due to the addition of Goldschmitt springs which, again in my experience, do not enhance the permissible axle load, but are longer so as to reduce the frequently nose-down stance of (especially A Class) motorhomes. The added length seems to bring advantage in terms of greater suspension travel, but us mere mortals don't have the advantage of being to compare two equally loaded, similar, vans, on the same stretch of road, one with Goldschmitts, the other not, so this is purely subjective. Having said that, our previous van was a Hymer Exsis-i, and the whole front end shook and rattled over every road irregularity despite is bonded windscreen.

 

Since the spec of your Carthago seems to be pre-ordained, I think I would be inclined take it as it comes, and see how you find it before embarking on the expense of substituting air at the front. You may find it perfectly acceptable, especially on the maxi chassis (which our Hymer was not).

 

Probably the most noticeable difference to ride, and almost certainly to the handling, will be gained by getting the tyre pressures right for the actual, laden, axle loads. You will need to fully load the van for this, with everything and everyone on board, and then visit a weighbridge and get the front and rear axle loads individually, as well as the all-up weight. Armed with that, consult the tyre manufacturer for their recommended pressures for those loads. These will almost inevitably be lower than those recommended by Fiat or Carthago as, not knowing the load condition in which the van will be operated, all they can do is set the pressures to suit the maximum permissible load on each axle which, were it achieved, would inevitably result in an all-up weight exceeding the vehicle's MAM.

 

Lower pressures (probably at both ends) will increase the compliance of the tyre sidewalls a little, but will also increase the tread contact areas, so improving braking, traction and, in my experience, directional stability. This simple step also has the advantage that, apart from the comparatively modest cost of the weighbridge ticket - it is free! :-D

 

If you're lucky, your van will come on Continental tyres. Lucky, because Continental publish a full set of pressure for load tables for their tyres, whereas Michelin will only advise on front tyre pressures relative to load, and invariably stick to rear tyre pressures suited the maximum permissible rear axle load.

[TheEscapist]

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 12:50 PM

 

TheEscapist - 2019-03-11 9:35 AM

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 10:18 AM

TheEscapist - 2019-03-11 8:41 AM

My spec is Ducato, uprated engine...

But uprated to what?

My Ducato-based Rapido has the 2.3litre 150HP motor and, while it’s plenty adequate for a vehicle that weighs around 3100kg in normal holiday trim, it’s inevitable that the motor’s performance would be blunted if asked to drag along a motorhome weighing (at least) another 1000kg.

Carthago states that there is a "reinforced spring on the front axle” (whatever that means), so couple that with a high front-tyre pressure and the ride’s unlikely to be soft. Whether you’ll find this problematical remains to be seen.

Full details:

 

 

Engine uprated to 180hp

Payload uprated to 4,800 kgs (this automatically adds the reinforced front axle and rear air suspension)

Automatic gearbox

Alloy wheels.

Maybe best I add the full spec here.

No, I didn't pay full price. I get a huge discount as it was a dealer order, not mine, ut I think its a good spec.

I will then add dealer fit items - solar panels, air con, third battery etc once I decide what I need exactly.

The dealer is very good and not pushing anything. It's me asking what I need and him responding.

Cheers

Paul

You haven't said which Ducato chassis your van is mounded upon, but I'm assuming it must be the Maxi with AlKo at the rear? 2,100kg front axle, 2,400kg rear axle?

 

Motorhomes are relatively heavy, and so are their wheels and tyres (albeit you say alloy wheels, they won't be significantly lighter than the standard steel variety - but every little helps!). This more or less dictates that the unsprung masses are high so, when a motorhome (or any of the commercial vehicles on which they are based) is driven unladen, they bounce all over the road. Usually, with reasonable load added, things calm down a bit.

 

The problem, in my experience, is that for design reasons, and for cheapness of production, the suspension travel distances are fairly minimal, so the energy transmitted through the springs when on uneven or potholed roads has to be absorbed over a short distance, with the result that greater impact loads are inevitably transmitted to the body shell. (If you've aven driven a Citroen 2CV or Dyane, you'll know the pluses and minuses of long travel suspension! :-D)

 

The next problem is that instead of a nice rigid steel panel van shell, you have a relatively flexible chassis on which is mounted a "bodyshell" that is made from a variety of relatively loosely jointed components, so when the road shocks hit the chassis, this relatively flexible body vibrates, and anything that isn't rigidly mounted to it rattles. The rattles, IMO, exacerbate the impression of a harsh ride.

 

Air suspension should give a more compliant ride, but it cannot give of its absolute best, other than on relatively smooth and pot hole free surfaces, because of those relatively short suspension distances. There must be at least some shocks that cannot be amortised by the air cushions. In your case, it seems you have air at the rear which, assuming it is on the low AlKo chassis (which seems to me to have even shorter suspension travel than the standard van cart springs!) should help to reduce the bangs and clatter from the back end.

 

However, you have normal steel springs at the front. I'm guessing that the "reinforced" front axle is due to the addition of Goldschmitt springs which, again in my experience, do not enhance the permissible axle load, but are longer so as to reduce the frequently nose-down stance of (especially A Class) motorhomes. The added length seems to bring advantage in terms of greater suspension travel, but us mere mortals don't have the advantage of being to compare two equally loaded, similar, vans, on the same stretch of road, one with Goldschmitts, the other not, so this is purely subjective. Having said that, our previous van was a Hymer Exsis-i, and the whole front end shook and rattled over every road irregularity despite is bonded windscreen.

 

Since the spec of your Carthago seems to be pre-ordained, I think I would be inclined take it as it comes, and see how you find it before embarking on the expense of substituting air at the front. You may find it perfectly acceptable, especially on the maxi chassis (which our Hymer was not).

 

Probably the most noticeable difference to ride, and almost certainly to the handling, will be gained by getting the tyre pressures right for the actual, laden, axle loads. You will need to fully load the van for this, with everything and everyone on board, and then visit a weighbridge and get the front and rear axle loads individually, as well as the all-up weight. Armed with that, consult the tyre manufacturer for their recommended pressures for those loads. These will almost inevitably be lower than those recommended by Fiat or Carthago as, not knowing the load condition in which the van will be operated, all they can do is set the pressures to suit the maximum permissible load on each axle which, were it achieved, would inevitably result in an all-up weight exceeding the vehicle's MAM.

 

Lower pressures (probably at both ends) will increase the compliance of the tyre sidewalls a little, but will also increase the tread contact areas, so improving braking, traction and, in my experience, directional stability. This simple step also has the advantage that, apart from the comparatively modest cost of the weighbridge ticket - it is free! :-D

 

If you're lucky, your van will come on Continental tyres. Lucky, because Continental publish a full set of pressure for load tables for their tyres, whereas Michelin will only advise on front tyre pressures relative to load, and invariably stick to rear tyre pressures suited the maximum permissible rear axle load.

 

Thanks Brian.

 

Yes, I have the ALKO chassis.

 

Great advice.

 

Paul

[Keithl]

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 11:50 AM

 

If you're lucky, your van will come on Continental tyres. Lucky, because Continental publish a full set of pressure for load tables for their tyres, whereas Michelin will only advise on front tyre pressures relative to load, and invariably stick to rear tyre pressures suited the maximum permissible rear axle load.

 

And for info here is a link to the latest Continental Technical Databook...

 

https://blobs.continental-tires.com/www8/servlet/blob/85806/e0854f2c7866c64da551474b998ef8b3/download-technical-databook-data.pdf

 

Van tyre ratings/loading start at page 80.

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

I’m guessing Paul is aware of this, but the current (April 2019) issue of MMM magazine includes a review of the Carthago Liner-For-Two model, with the test-vehicle having a similar specification to Paul’s.

 

As is commonplace nowadays, the review focuses much more on the conversion rather than how the vehicle drives, though there are comments on the ComfortMatic transmission and on the ride quality. Although it’s mentioned that the test-vehicle had air suspension, it’s not clear whether this was just on the rear axle (which I suspect was the case) or on front and rear axles.

[Keithl]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 1:58 PM

 

I’m guessing Paul is aware of this, but the current (April 2019) issue of MMM magazine includes a review of the Carthago Liner-For-Two model, with the test-vehicle having a similar specification to Paul’s.

 

Could even have been Paul's Liner :$ :D :'(

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

What do you mean by Ride quality? You are driving a overloaded truck. Not a Citroen DS. To be sure what you buy do test drives before. Have at least Air suspension and extra leveling. And have a good dealer to maintain them.

[Derek Uzzell]

Keithl - 2019-03-11 2:49 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 1:58 PM

 

I’m guessing Paul is aware of this, but the current (April 2019) issue of MMM magazine includes a review of the Carthago Liner-For-Two model, with the test-vehicle having a similar specification to Paul’s.

 

Could even have been Paul's Liner :$ :D :'(

 

The vendor of Paul’s Carthago is Chelston Motorhomes at Wellington, Somerset, whereas the vehicle reviewed bt MMM was supplied by Camper UK at Lincoln.

 

It’s possible that the MMM Carthago was this one

 

https://www.camperuk.co.uk/motorhomes-for-sale-details/carthago-liner-for-two-53-2019-model-c-shaped-rear-lounge-silver-automatic-diesel/id-45074/

 

as the advert has “RESERVED” on it.