Fiat Ducato problems of timing belt when it has frozen has formed

[Carole Gandy]

I find it amazing that there are reports over a period of years regarding the problem of the timing belt failure when the driver of the motorhome on a Fiat Ducato base tries to start the engine in freezing/low conditions. It is obvious that the person starting the engine is unaware that water may have poured over the engine, frozen and when someone tries to start it trashes the timing belt. There appears to be no answer to this problem and even Fiat cannot come up with an answer. Our van was first registered in May 2017 and has done 8000 miles yet people with less than 4000 miles have experienced this problem. Motorhome retailers continue to sell these vans to unsuspecting customers and we are talking about a large amount of money to secure one of these vans. Why has no one come up with an answer to the problem and why have motorhome manufacturers together with Fiat not tried to resolve this problem. We were told by the Fiat Ducato dealer in Annemasse where we had to have a new timing belt fitted thankfully under warranty that this is a design fault and as such there is no solution to the problem and it could happen again at any time when low temperatures are recorded. That leads me to believe that vans are being sold that are not fit for purpose and publicity literature should cease stating that vans are fully winterized?

[ron.]

The solution is easy. Fiat simply need to stop water getting into the engine bay in such quantities as to cause these problems but, unlike other manufacturers, they seem at a total loss as how to do it. Certainly the Heath Robinson type rubber mouldings they now use won’t stop it. Fiats have had this problem for at least 30 years to my knowledge and my 2018 model continues the trend. The word pathetic sums it up I think.

 

Ron

[Marcol]

I had heard of this problem and it’s just another reason that I would never have another Fiat based motorhome. The Fiat Autotrail that we used to have was a comfortmatic and quite frankly it was rubbish. It was in the dealers more than it was on the road. The dealer never could fix the juddering while reversing up a hill. This along with numerous electrical problems was the reason we soon traded it in

I know there are thousands of Fiat motorhomes without any or few problems , but when you get a Friday afternoon special it does put you off the marque

[Derek Uzzell]

In this 2013 Forum thread

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/11-month-old-FIAT-2000-repair-bill/30521/

 

Nick Fisher mentioned (Posting 7 March 2013 12:44 PM) the possibility of water getting under the cam-belt cover, freezing on the cam-belt’s pulley and the ice then causing the belt to ‘jump’.

 

(The 2013 forum thread related to Ducato X250 models that gained a notorious reputation for rainwater leaking into the engine compartment. The Ducato X290 ‘facelift’ models that were introduced in mid-2014 have a significantly improved arrangement with a ‘trough’ at the base of the windscreen leading rainwater to three large-diameter that drain it beneath the vehicle. The system seems to work as the engine-compartment of my 2015 Ducato stays dry.)

[TeamRienza]

An interesting thread. Not seen it on forums before, although I suppose it is an extension of the perennial rainwater scuttle issue.

 

I assume it is only an issue on coachbuilts, my van being a B class Hymer (2016) which we use all year round. I would value opinions.

 

As stated earlier Fiat do seem to be a poor base, especially considering the Ducato is the workhorse van from their range. My 3 year old (just) has had to have a wiper control unit replaced, an instrument panel replaced due to the common isssue of continually dimly glowing warning lights, a defective external temperature sensor (7 degrees too low) and currently I am waiting for Fiat to reply to a complaint regarding the airbag and seatbelt warning lights signalling a fault. Another disappointment. Hymer quality being let down badly by a rubbish base. I am beginning to regret trading in my Ford Transit based van.

 

 

Davy

[ron.]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-02-07 6:45 PM

 

In this 2013 Forum thread

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/11-month-old-FIAT-2000-repair-bill/30521/

 

Nick Fisher mentioned (Posting 7 March 2013 12:44 PM) the possibility of water getting under the cam-belt cover, freezing on the cam-belt’s pulley and the ice then causing the belt to ‘jump’.

 

(The 2013 forum thread related to Ducato X250 models that gained a notorious reputation for rainwater leaking into the engine compartment. The Ducato X290 ‘facelift’ models that were introduced in mid-2014 have a significantly improved arrangement with a ‘trough’ at the base of the windscreen leading rainwater to three large-diameter that drain it beneath the vehicle. The system seems to work as the engine-

 

compartment of my 2015 Ducato stays dry.)

 

Despite what you say it is obvious that the system doesn’t work given that two out of four posts so far still have the water ingress problem on later models, plus Fiats own admission of such.

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Put the option heated crankcase ventilation on it. And use a 8 layer engine top blanket insulation who fits nicely. Or a blanket to 230 volt. Or a interior heater on mains, or a webasto diesel heater, Or put your motor home under cover. Etc. How looks your engine bay cover.

[rupert123]

I have had various X250 Ducato since 2008 and never suffered from a single engine problem. The Fiat base is by far the most popular model so it follows it will get more complaints but go on any forum for any make you will get problems thrown up. It is unrealistic to expect a faultless run of thousands of vehicles, many things like the ;judder' were grossly exaggerated , much of it just poor driving. Unfortunate if you get problems but most will not and to say you will never run a Fiat base is plain unrealistic. What are the alternatives?

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

They are market leader. But that does mean as this forum is for years talking about solutions to improve things. No equal on other forums about this. And i am said proud to form part of this forum as a contributor.

[ron.]

rupert123 - 2019-02-07 8:24 PM

 

I have had various X250 Ducato since 2008 and never suffered from a single engine problem. The Fiat base is by far the most popular model so it follows it will get more complaints but go on any forum for any make you will get problems thrown up. It is unrealistic to expect a faultless run of thousands of vehicles, many things like the ;judder' were grossly exaggerated , much of it just poor driving. Unfortunate if you get problems but most will not and to say you will never run a Fiat base is plain unrealistic. What are the alternatives?

 

Sorry Rupert but the likes of Fiat do not pay out on countless claims under warranty for faults down to driving error. What you are saying is that the customer couldn’t drive, the Fait dealer who tested the vehicle for the warranty claim couldn’t drive and on and on. Again, you are not facing facts, as Fiat eventually admitted the judder problem.

 

Back to the water ingress problem. I have owned many vehicles in my 50+ years of driving, including several of high value, and yes they all have their faults. However, non have had the same old problem, stretching back several decades, as Fiat have with water entering into the engine bay and the associated problems this causes. Personally I can’t wait for the Japanese to enter the motorhome market.

[aandncaravan]

Carole Gandy - 2019-02-07 2:39 PM

 

I find it amazing that there are reports over a period of years regarding the problem of the timing belt failure when the driver of the motorhome on a Fiat Ducato base tries to start the engine in freezing/low conditions. It is obvious that the person starting the engine is unaware that water may have poured over the engine, frozen and when someone tries to start it trashes the timing belt. There appears to be no answer to this problem and even Fiat cannot come up with an answer. Our van was first registered in May 2017 and has done 8000 miles yet people with less than 4000 miles have experienced this problem. Motorhome retailers continue to sell these vans to unsuspecting customers and we are talking about a large amount of money to secure one of these vans. Why has no one come up with an answer to the problem and why have motorhome manufacturers together with Fiat not tried to resolve this problem. We were told by the Fiat Ducato dealer in Annemasse where we had to have a new timing belt fitted thankfully under warranty that this is a design fault and as such there is no solution to the problem and it could happen again at any time when low temperatures are recorded. That leads me to believe that vans are being sold that are not fit for purpose and publicity literature should cease stating that vans are fully winterized?

 

 

It is a bit of a pain to carry out regularly, but if the Fiat sits idle for several days at a time, then when there is a risk of the weather being very cold, all you need to do is put a small waterproof 'blanket' over the top of the engine.

Any water that then gets into the top of the engine bay runs off safely down the sides.

 

I know you shouldn't have to do this every time the weather gets icy, but it does work.

 

If you put something big, like a wooden Welsh spoon, on the key ring when the blanket is in place, it may help act as a reminder to remove the blanket before starting the engine?

 

 

[Marcol]

rupert123 - 2019-02-07 8:24 PM

 

I have had various X250 Ducato since 2008 and never suffered from a single engine problem. The Fiat base is by far the most popular model so it follows it will get more complaints but go on any forum for any make you will get problems thrown up. It is unrealistic to expect a faultless run of thousands of vehicles, many things like the ;judder' were grossly exaggerated , much of it just poor driving. Unfortunate if you get problems but most will not and to say you will never run a Fiat base is plain unrealistic. What are the alternatives?

 

I’ve been driving vans for my business for nearly 40 years. I know how to drive a van. The dealer should know how to drive a van. The fact was that the Comfortmatic gearbox was rubbish and even the dealer couldn’t fix it. If you had tried to drive it you would find that the judder was not “grossly exaggerated “. That along with sensor faults and the wiring loom needing to be replaced because of chaffing against the bulkhead was the last straw.

In using most makes of van in the last 40 years I have a pretty good insite into what works and what doesn’t. The only vans that last that I’ve had are the Ford and the VW. I use the Transit because the servicing costs are cheaper than the VW , but both are good. The new Merc looks good , but the old one I had rusted away long before the mechanicals gave up so I’ve never had another Merc.

I take your point that the most popular base will have have more associated faults and at the moment the most popular is the Fiat.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

ron. - 2019-02-07 7:41 PM

 

Despite what you say it is obvious that the system doesn’t work given that two out of four posts so far still have the water ingress problem on later models, plus Fiats own admission of such.

 

The rainwater drainage system is effective on my 2015 Ducato X290 - otherwise I would not have said so.

 

‘Everbody’ knows that there was a wiindscreen rainwater drainage problem with earlier Ducato generations that was addressed by DIY fixes and, eventually, a Fiat modification. But the X290’s ‘trough’ design OUGHT to prevent water coming off the windscreen and flooding into the engine compartment, so if it’s ineffective on your motorhome and on other Ducato X290 owners’ motorhomes, it would be worth investigating why this is happening. I’m not aware that Fiat has admitted that rainwater ingress into a Ducato X290’s engine compartment is a problem

 

The idea that water finds its way under a Ducato’s timing cover, freezes on the cam-belt's drive mechanism and the ice that forms there causes the belt to ‘jump’ is a hypothesis mentioned as early as 2010.

 

https://www.motorhomefacts.com/forum-printtopic-1-80018-0-0-asc-viewresult-1.html

 

It’s an attractive hypothesis, but that doesn’t automatically make it correct. There are other on-line comments about cam-belt ‘jumping’ in very cold weather that do not relate to Fiats and with the suggestion being that a frozen water pump was the cause.

 

When I started motorcaravanning in 1998 I swore I’d never buy a motorhome based on a Fiat as their customer care then was lamentable. I’ve only owned three motorhomes - two Ford-based and my current Fiat-based Ducato, but I’ve owned lots of Japanese and German made cars. There were Ford-related problems with my first two motorhomes and I can think of only one of the cars (a 1980s Toyota Corolla) that was delivered fault-free and remained so during my ownership.

 

Plainly there have been problems with Ducato that should really not have occurred - the ‘juddering’ fiasco and the instrument-cluster issue - but there have also been significant problems with Ford and Mercedes that have affected motorhome owners.

 

Mandy comments

 

That leads me to believe that vans are being sold that are not fit for purpose and publicity literature should cease stating that vans are fully winterized?

 

When publicity literature for motorhomes mentions ‘winterisation’, the word will have been applied to the motorhome’s conversion element not to the vehicle (Fiat, Ford, Mercedes, VW, etc.) on which the motorhome is based. It will be assumed (rightly or wrongly) that, if constructed and maintained correctly, the base-vehicle will handle the weather conditions it is designed to cope with. I’ve seen plenty of motorhome converters’ literature extolling their products’ wonderful ‘winterisation’, but I’ve never read any literature from manufacturers of common-or-garden commecial vehicles (Ducatos, Boxers, Sprinters, Transits, etc.) that use ‘winterisation’ as a selling point.

[pagey]

ok my(2017) van does not leak water to the under bonnet area i have just to be sure been outside in the rain and checked again. Now mine is no different to any other ducato the only thing i can think of is that where mine is parked it leans over to the drivers side and the rain water can be seen to run out the drain onto the front wheel

[rupert123]

ron. - 2019-02-07 9:16 PM

 

rupert123 - 2019-02-07 8:24 PM

 

I have had various X250 Ducato since 2008 and never suffered from a single engine problem. The Fiat base is by far the most popular model so it follows it will get more complaints but go on any forum for any make you will get problems thrown up. It is unrealistic to expect a faultless run of thousands of vehicles, many things like the ;judder' were grossly exaggerated , much of it just poor driving. Unfortunate if you get problems but most will not and to say you will never run a Fiat base is plain unrealistic. What are the alternatives?

 

Sorry Rupert but the likes of Fiat do not pay out on countless claims under warranty for faults down to driving error. What you are saying is that the customer couldn’t drive, the Fait dealer who tested the vehicle for the warranty claim couldn’t drive and on and on. Again, you are not facing facts, as Fiat eventually admitted the judder problem.

 

Back to the water ingress problem. I have owned many vehicles in my 50+ years of driving, including several of high value, and yes they all have their faults. However, non have had the same old problem, stretching back several decades, as Fiat have with water entering into the engine bay and the associated problems this causes. Personally I can’t wait for the Japanese to enter the motorhome market.

Lets get some realism here. Fiat did not pay out countless claims, in fact it turned out to be a very low percentage. the water problem is not decades old and only occurred from around 2007 and was quickly sorted out. As for the judder I have had x250 vans since 2008, as I stated, and none juddered. True they had a fairly high reverse gear but it was easily manageable.

[rupert123]

Marcol - 2019-02-08 8:24 AM

 

rupert123 - 2019-02-07 8:24 PM

 

I have had various X250 Ducato since 2008 and never suffered from a single engine problem. The Fiat base is by far the most popular model so it follows it will get more complaints but go on any forum for any make you will get problems thrown up. It is unrealistic to expect a faultless run of thousands of vehicles, many things like the ;judder' were grossly exaggerated , much of it just poor driving. Unfortunate if you get problems but most will not and to say you will never run a Fiat base is plain unrealistic. What are the alternatives?

 

I’ve been driving vans for my business for nearly 40 years. I know how to drive a van. The dealer should know how to drive a van. The fact was that the Comfortmatic gearbox was rubbish and even the dealer couldn’t fix it. If you had tried to drive it you would find that the judder was not “grossly exaggerated “. That along with sensor faults and the wiring loom needing to be replaced because of chaffing against the bulkhead was the last straw.

In using most makes of van in the last 40 years I have a pretty good insite into what works and what doesn’t. The only vans that last that I’ve had are the Ford and the VW. I use the Transit because the servicing costs are cheaper than the VW , but both are good. The new Merc looks good , but the old one I had rusted away long before the mechanicals gave up so I’ve never had another Merc.

I take your point that the most popular base will have have more associated faults and at the moment the most popular is the Fiat.

Just because you have been driving vans for forty years does not make you any good, sorry if that sounds a bit insulting but it a simple fact. As the bit about the comfortmatic box i have never seen any reference to problems with these. As for the transit suggest you take a look at some Ford forums if you are under the delusion these are fault free.

[Will86]

When buying any mechanical object ... simply do your research and see which nationality has produced the most advanced equipment over the years ... it all points to Germany whether you like it or not.

 

The only good Italian equipment I find and use are musical.

[Derek Uzzell]

Pagey

 

As I said in my 1st posting above, the ‘trough’ at the base of the windscreen of a X290 Boxer/Ducato/Relay has three water drain-outlets, each connected to a large-diameter flexible hose. The hose attached to the trough’s central outlet funnels water to the rear of the motor; the hose attached to the trough’s left outlet (UK ‘nearside’) directs water to the rear of the gearbox; the hose attached to the trough’s right outlet (UK ‘offside’) sends water into the void above the offside front wheelarch from which it pours down near the front wheel.

 

Unless the motorhome is parked so that there is a very significant lean angle, the trough’s three outlets should cope with heavy rain. When I wash my Rapido I don’t stint when it comes to hosing down the windscreen and the drain hoses have proved able to handle that treatment without water getting under the bonnet.

 

My Rapido stands outside uncovered from November through March and there are deciduous trees nearby. So I regularly remove any leaves lying in the trough and occasionally confirm that the drain hoses are not blocked by sticking a garden hose in each trough’s outlet and ‘pressure flushing’ the drain hoses. Obviously, if the trough’s outlets and/or drain hoses have any blockage, water going into the trough might well oveflow into the under-bonnet area.

[Will86]

Considering drain holes ... in years past we always put plenty of old oil down them to minimise corrosion around unseen parts

[ron.]

rupert123 - 2019-02-08 11:29 AM

 

ron. - 2019-02-07 9:16 PM

 

rupert123 - 2019-02-07 8:24 PM

 

I have had various X250 Ducato since 2008 and never suffered from a single engine problem. The Fiat base is by far the most popular model so it follows it will get more complaints but go on any forum for any make you will get problems thrown up. It is unrealistic to expect a faultless run of thousands of vehicles, many things like the ;judder' were grossly exaggerated , much of it just poor driving. Unfortunate if you get problems but most will not and to say you will never run a Fiat base is plain unrealistic. What are the alternatives?

 

Sorry Rupert but the likes of Fiat do not pay out on countless claims under warranty for faults down to driving error. What you are saying is that the customer couldn’t drive, the Fait dealer who tested the vehicle for the warranty claim couldn’t drive and on and on. Again, you are not facing facts, as Fiat eventually admitted the judder problem.

 

Back to the water ingress problem. I have owned many vehicles in my 50+ years of driving, including several of high value, and yes they all have their faults. However, non have had the same old problem, stretching back several decades, as Fiat have with water entering into the engine bay and the associated problems this causes. Personally I can’t wait for the Japanese to enter the motorhome market.

Lets get some realism here. Fiat did not pay out countless claims, in fact it turned out to be a very low percentage. the water problem is not decades old and only occurred from around 2007 and was quickly sorted out. As for the judder I have had x250 vans since 2008, as I stated, and none juddered. True they had a fairly high reverse gear but it was easily manageable.

 

Water was entering the engine bay, mixing with the battery acid, and corroding wiring looms/bodywork way before 2007. I well remember the judder episode when Fiat were in complete denial that it existed and then proved to be telling porkies. Another myth was that the 3.0L Ducato’s didn’t suffer from it nor did any of the Peugeot engine versions. So I decided to play it safe at the time and bought an Autocruise Starburst with the 3.0L Peugeo engine - I couldn’t go wrong could I? Well it suffered from the worst judder my Fiat dealer had ever encountered, and he should know as he remarked that he was rectifying 30 clutches a month since Fiat put their hands up.

[Derek Uzzell]

The ‘trough’ at the base of the windscreen of a X290 Boxer/Ducato/Relay is made of plastic, as are the trough’s drain outlets. The drain hoses are made of rubber. Neither of those materials is prone to corrosion so there’s no need to treat them with any sort of anti-corrosion product.

 

The attached photo is of the underbonnet area of a (left-hand drive) X290 Ducato and the arrow shows the drain-hose from the trough’s central outlet as it angles down and to the right. There is another similar-diameter hose at each end of the trough (the upper part of the UK-nearside hose is just visible to the right of the photo) so there’s plenty of opportunity for water collected by the trough to empty away.

 

Where water can collect is in the front edge of the large oval intake to the left of the photo’s centre-line. This water should also drain away, but might well not if the vehicle is parked with its nose well down.

[Marcol]

rupert123 - 2019-02-08 11:33 AM

 

Marcol - 2019-02-08 8:24 AM

 

rupert123 - 2019-02-07 8:24 PM

 

I have had various X250 Ducato since 2008 and never suffered from a single engine problem. The Fiat base is by far the most popular model so it follows it will get more complaints but go on any forum for any make you will get problems thrown up. It is unrealistic to expect a faultless run of thousands of vehicles, many things like the ;judder' were grossly exaggerated , much of it just poor driving. Unfortunate if you get problems but most will not and to say you will never run a Fiat base is plain unrealistic. What are the alternatives?

 

I’ve been driving vans for my business for nearly 40 years. I know how to drive a van. The dealer should know how to drive a van. The fact was that the Comfortmatic gearbox was rubbish and even the dealer couldn’t fix it. If you had tried to drive it you would find that the judder was not “grossly exaggerated “. That along with sensor faults and the wiring loom needing to be replaced because of chaffing against the bulkhead was the last straw.

In using most makes of van in the last 40 years I have a pretty good insite into what works and what doesn’t. The only vans that last that I’ve had are the Ford and the VW. I use the Transit because the servicing costs are cheaper than the VW , but both are good. The new Merc looks good , but the old one I had rusted away long before the mechanicals gave up so I’ve never had another Merc.

I take your point that the most popular base will have have more associated faults and at the moment the most popular is the Fiat.

Just because you have been driving vans for forty years does not make you any good, sorry if that sounds a bit insulting but it a simple fact. As the bit about the comfortmatic box i have never seen any reference to problems with these. As for the transit suggest you take a look at some Ford forums if you are under the delusion these are fault free.

 

You’re damn right it does and is bloody insulting considering I’ve probably covered well over a million miles with only one minor shunt. Yes I know the Transit has its fair share of faults , but as I said they and VW outlast all the others I’ve had . My vans are used in the construction industry so lead a hard life. I use an independent local garage for all my servicing and one of the mechanics made a statement one day. He said “If it’s Italian and there’s electricity involved , then expect trouble”.

 

Another thing that’s not really applicable to motorhomes but is to panel vans is the resale value. Have you ever tried to trade in a used Fiat Ducato? I have and it wasn’t a pleasant experience

 

But each to their own as they say. You and I can only speak from our retrospective experiences

[Derek Uzzell]

ron. - 2019-02-08 1:46 PM

 

... I well remember the judder episode when Fiat were in complete denial that it existed and then proved to be telling porkies. Another myth was that the 3.0L Ducato’s didn’t suffer from it nor did any of the Peugeot engine versions. So I decided to play it safe at the time and bought an Autocruise Starburst with the 3.0L Peugeo engine - I couldn’t go wrong could I? Well it suffered from the worst judder my Fiat dealer had ever encountered, and he should know as he remarked that he was rectifying 30 clutches a month since Fiat put their hands up.

 

When the ‘juddering’ controversy was at its height in the UK it was never being claimed that Ducatos/Boxers with the Iveco 3.0litre motor were immune to the problem, so expecting that opting to purchase a new Fiat or Peugeot-badged motorhome with that powerplant AND A MANUAL TRANSMISSION would protect the buyer from the juddering syndrome would have been wishful thinking. What was being claimed was that vehicles WITH THE COMFORTMATIC ROBOTISED-MANUAL TRANSMISSION did not judder during reversing, but ComfortMatic has only been offered on Ducatos and, back then, was only available with the 3.0litre motor.

 

There have, of course, been problems with ComfortMatic-equipped Ducatos, mainly (so it would seem) with the control system not the gearbox itself. A cursory forum search will retrieve several complaints about ComfortMatic - this is just one

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/3-0-comfort-matic-gearbox-failure/34325/

 

That there was a ‘juddering’ problem with earlier X250 Ducatos/Boxers cannot be denied. Unfortunately, while there was plenty of shouting about it at the time, as far as I’m aware no effort was made to collect and analyse information from motorcaravanners who were complaining about juddering, nor from those who said it didn’t happen with their motorhomes. So it was never established which vehicles were most or least prone to the phenomenon.

 

I have to say that I feel the same as Marcol’s mechanic when it comes to Italian engineering, but Fiat dominates the motorhome market and I bought my Rapido because I coudn’t identify an alternative that met our requirements.

 

This review of the 2018 USA version of Ducato (built in Mexico) may amuse

 

https://www.thecarconnection.com/overview/ram_promaster_2018#image=100633539

[euroserv]

That review made me laugh a lot Derek.

 

They applaud the tight turning circle and attribute this to it being front wheel drive (which is a disadvantage to a small turning circle) and then only give this 4 out of 10!

 

They also berate the looks and basic specification in comparison to a Ford or Mercedes but fail to mention that the RAM is about half of the price of the Merc!

 

It is also clear that they don't understand a diesel engine while failing to realise what a wonderful V6 petrol they are offered.

 

It is a bit like a British review of anything American.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

A motor home whit a flat roof high and wide can drain or flush tons of water thru the scuttle plate into the engine bay. At driving and stationary conditions. Their timing belt arrangement can be the problem.