plwsm2000 Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 I just received this email from Comfort Insurance warning of an increase in theft of Fiat motorhomes. There was no mention (yet!) of any extra conditions / increased premiums. Over the past 2 months we have seen an increase in thefts of Fiat Motorhomes due to technology available to purchase online, which overrides the manufacturer standard security. Areas specifically targeted are along the A127 within the postal codes of: CM CO RM SS If you own a Fiat Motorhome in these areas please be aware of the increased theft risk. While Motorhome thefts are rare, our claims statistics have shown that Fiats are being targeted. We recommend investigating and installing deterrents and/or taking preventative measures to decrease the risk of theft. Steering wheel locks, wheel-clamps and door locks are some ideas for extra security. We would also like to mention that Ford Motorhomes still have the highest theft rates in the above areas particularly including: SO BH If you are thinking of, or have already purchased a Ford Motorhome please be aware of this increased risk and fit preventatives to the vehicle. As a result of the increased risk with Ford Motorhomes and Campervans we require certain types of security when you take out or renew an insurance policy with us. The underwriters, Aviva require your Motorhome to be fitted with a Meta Trak VTS or Thatcham Approved Category 5 or 6 tracking device. [/Quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 plwsm2000 - 2018-11-20 4:54 PM I just received this email from Comfort Insurance warning of an increase in theft of Fiat motorhomes. There was no mention (yet!) of any extra conditions / increased premiums. Also see my post here. Seems my observations may be well founded! https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Any-Tribute-T-615-owners-views/50713/#M586552 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Well the first batch of postcodes are in the area known across Europe as 'bandit country' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 From what I understand the immobiliser is defeated as simple as this YouTube link... Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veletron Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Hi Just received the same. Has anyone contacted Fiat to see if they require the 'Meta Trak VTS' on Fiats as well - I note that this is on the next paragraph and as such is a bit ambiguous as to whether it was just for fords. Time for a clutch/handbrake/swivel seat lock as well as my existing steering wheel lock and house covered in security cams me thinks. Hate thieving skum more than anything else. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 veletron - 2018-11-20 6:17 PM Time for a clutch/handbrake/swivel seat lock as well as my existing steering wheel lock and house covered in security cams me thinks. Hate thieving skum more than anything else. Nigel And may I suggest adding a highly visible wheel clamp as well... https://www.bulldogsecure.com/view/bulldog-ca2000c-centaur-wheel-clamp/109 Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Keithl - 2018-11-20 5:46 PM From what I understand the immobiliser is defeated as simple as this YouTube link... Keith. Yes, that's basically it. You obviously need to either force the mechanical lock or have a correctly cut mechanical key as well as the dongle, but the turbo key advertised also allows them to read the key cylinder and also operate the lock with the tool. I haven't had my hands on one, but I suspect it's just as quick as the Tibbe pick for Fords with a bit of practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Do not forget the bear lock system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 veletron - 2018-11-20 6:17 PM Hi Just received the same. Has anyone contacted Fiat to see if they require the 'Meta Trak VTS' on Fiats as well - I note that this is on the next paragraph and as such is a bit ambiguous as to whether it was just for fords. I read that as just for Fords, but give it time if the theft rate increases. The problem as I understand it with Thatcham VTS is that it no longer requires an immobiliser, it's a tracking system. Professional thieves work out very quickly where the installation points for these systems are fitted on different vehicles and often just rip them out. Time for a clutch/handbrake/swivel seat lock as well as my existing steering wheel lock and house covered in security cams me thinks. Anything you can add to slow them down or deter them helps. A good alarm system that operates independently of the door locks and the OBD port protector are what I would recommend as the first line of defence. They don't like noise, and whereas CCTV footage of similar car thefts shows they're not always put off by the noise of an alarm when they can get the vehicle started in a matter of seconds, any additional delaying tactics that mean they're looking at minutes of hanging around with the alarm sounding will likely make a difference. If you're looking at clutch, handbrake and seat locks, take a few minutes to consider how a thief who has no concern about the amount of damage he might cause could violently attack them. A klot of modern control pedals are plastic for instance, and I haven't seen a padlock through the relatively thin metal of a rotating seat base that would deter a determined thief yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 It's a pity the remove able steering wheel is no longer available (mainly due to the introduction of air bags in the wheel) as they were extremely useful on site when swivelling the seats but a great theft deterrent - no steering wheel - no drivey! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plwsm2000 Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 Just had a look at my OBD2 socket, and it has a plug permanently connected that I assume goes into the alarm (dealer fitted). This might make it difficult to fit an obd protector. A bit radical, but it may be worthwhile rewiring the obd connector and use an adapter cable to revert the pins back again when needed. Also connecting the 240V from the EHU onto pin 16 via a 50Amp fuse should stop them :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Have the Police been informed by the insurers of the locations? Installing an alarm via an OBD port is very risky,it should be hardwired in elswhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plwsm2000 Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 Just received a second email from Comfort Following on from our previous email in regards to the Ford and Fiat theft update, we would just like to clarify that the underwriters Aviva only need the tracking devices fitted onto the Ford based vehicles. The information regarding the Fiat based vehicles is just a precaution to inform you that we have seen an increase in thefts in the past two months. Aviva's current security requirements have not changed but we do recommend being extra vigilant at this time. [/Quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 plwsm2000 - 2018-11-20 8:00 PM Just had a look at my OBD2 socket, and it has a plug permanently connected that I assume goes into the alarm (dealer fitted). This might make it difficult to fit an obd protector. A bit radical, but it may be worthwhile rewiring the obd connector and use an adapter cable to revert the pins back again when needed. Also connecting the 240V from the EHU onto pin 16 via a 50Amp fuse should stop them :-D A simple solution, go to a breakers yard and get a spare socket out of any modern car, they are all pretty much the same size. Pop out your Fiat socket, refit the alarm plug then hide the pair out of sight behind the dash. Fit the 'new' socket in place of the original and no-one will know what you have done. So, along comes Mr Thief and plugs in his Dongle BUT it doesn't work and he cannot understand why! Result! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 An OBD-port protection device is offered for Ducato (2006 onwards) by this company https://www.protectavan.co.uk/vehicles/fiat/ducato-2006-present/ducato-2006-present-obd-port-protector However, this link suggests that such devices may still not guarantee that a vehicle cannot be stolen. https://www.in-car-advancements.co.uk/blog/are-obd-port-protectors-secure.html Dummy OBD ports are offered on-line for certain vehicles (example here) https://www.focusrsparts.co.uk/dummy-obd-port-plug-and-play-5-min-fit/prod_5855.html but (based on the comment about Transit Customs) swapping the original OBD port for a dummy port may not always be practicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 When I moved my OBD port into a TVL OBD port lock, I fitted another socket from a scrapped Ducato in the original location as Derek suggests, and ran the length of wiring still attached to it back under the fuse box taping it to an original loom. It is best to try and get another Fiat socket though, because they have a tab on one side which secures them into the original mounting bracket. Some other makes may have similar, but not all OBD sockets are moulded the same. The actual socket to accept the diagnostic plug is made to a common standard, individual vehicle manufacturers have their own methods of fitting. Regarding the article questioning the usefulness of the OBD lock, it is correct that some vehicles such as Range Rovers can be easily started by circumventing the OBD port WITH the right equipment. I have seen a kit which can allegedly bypass the immobiliser and unlock the vehicle through the reversing sensors by connecting to the sensor wiring behind the bumper. The kit was however specific to Range Rovers, it couldn't just be used on any vehicle fitted with reversing sensors. Whilst it is theoretically possible to do something similar on most CAN enabled vehicles, equipment to enable thieves with limited mechanical or electrical knowledge who are really just interested in stealing a vehicle the simplest way possible with the equipment in their possession is almost universally designed to operate through the OBD port on most vehicles. An average thief using one of those devices isn't likely to start pulling wiring looms apart if he finds access to the OBD port has been defeated, particularly if a good and well installed non Canbus and non-factory door lock enabled alarm system is sounding the whole time. Yes, someone could tow the vehicle away or drag it onto a lorry and spend hours working on the canbus wiring once the vehicle is hidden away in a lock up somewhere, but even that is undoubtable as by the time they've got the vehicle hidden away, most these days are simply dismantled to resell the parts and the bodyshells cut up, crushed or dumped burnt out to conceal their identities, or complete vehicles shipped abroad hidden in shipping containers. On the rarer occasions they want to clone them, its far easier to just swap out all the relevant immobiliser system parts with a set from a legitimate donor vehicle. Most of these thieves actually taking the vehicles from the street or your driveway don't know what they are doing, other than that they've been given one of these OBD bypass boxes by someone further up the chain, and shown how to use it. if they find they can't use it on your vehicle, they'll simply go and look for another one. Only if you have a very rare or very high value and desirable vehicle that had been specifically targeted to be taken by whatever means possible would you need to worry beyond that (for now). If you're concerned about the possibility of the OBD lock being defeated, or the port being bypassed, fit a hidden switch that isolates the fuel pump relay and/or use additional security such as a steering wheel lock or pedal box. All of those additional items are delaying tactics and useful in a system of layered security, but don't make the law-abiding citizens mistake of thinking that they are thief proof. They will delay a thief, and hopefully convince him to look elsewhere though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I received the emails from Comfort. It missed an opportunity to provide meaningful information as to models/years affected and where these vehicles were located eg drive, storage yard, car park. I would like to see them keep up this initiative of providing information to policy holders which will help reduce claims. I've contacted Comfort about this. Whilst my son showed me how easy it was to drive off with my Fiat motorhome, once he gained access and bought the right kit, and our van security should reflect this risk, we must not forget the importance of passive security. These will vary depending on risk. For example, we park our van so that the entrance door is visible to the adjacent pub car park and its security cameras, the drive is not shaded by bushes giving people a good line of sight, and neighbours keep a close eye on houses when people are away. These and other passive/active security measures we take will not stop our van from being stolen; it will just make the thieves think twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy mccord Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Im curious about all these statements of theft of motorhomes, whilst im sure some do indeed get stolen, i keep asking myself, what are they stealing them for?, is the trade in second hand habitation parts booming? because lets face it, they are not exactly small vehicles and they do stand out & I would think more difficult to sell on as they are a lot more unique than the vans they are based on? just a thought....but it would be a lot easier to steal a van Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 The trade in base vehicle parts, not necessarily habitation parts is booming and has been for years. You only have to look at eBay. One reason they are in demand is to repair damaged vehicles - not only do some insurers now repair with secondhand parts to cut costs, but the insurance industry is its own worst enemy in allowing written off vehicles to be sold for repair when they have been deemed uneconomically repairable. They get repaired and put back on the road because they can be economically repaired with stolen parts, or as unrepaired salvage they form the legitimately acquired identity with which to ring a complete stolen vehicle as well as the source of matched component sets to replace the immobiliser systems of stolen vehicles. Motorhomes are also desirable because their parts are often very little used or low mileage in comparison to commercial van parts and thus more readily resalable. Stolen motorhomes that are to be or have been rung also end up sold on to unsuspecting purchasers, often with their visible appearance quite expertly disguised by the application of different graphics etc. and even when recovered may initially be unrecognisable to the original owner. As with cars, may be advertised on eBay, Gumtree and other online sites at prices intended to attract unsuspecting purchasers. You might be surprised how many people seem happy to meet a complete stranger in a lay-by or car park and hand over thousands of pounds in cash without a second thought, because they think they're getting a bargain. If I seem to know too much about this, investigating vehicle crime was part of my job for many years, and several years ago I was involved in a national operation to recover and investigate the theft of around 600 motorhomes that had been identified through good intelligence work as having been rung or otherwise legitimised through DVLA records or by exporting from and reimporting to the UK on false identities to legitimise the documentation attached to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 When my 2 yr old Transit based PVC was stolen the police were pretty sure it was for breaking for the base vehicle parts. In any case it would have been fairly tricky to sell as a MH because it was from a small converter and so quite easily spotted. I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy mccord Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Muswell, which is my point, why not just nick a 3 month old ducato van, its far less visible than a coachbuilt motorhome driving down any road, I also cant believe that there is a serious market for motorhome panels to warrant all this alleged increase in thefts. but who knows.... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 andy mccord - 2018-11-21 2:58 PM Muswell, which is my point, why not just nick a 3 month old ducato van, its far less visible than a coachbuilt motorhome driving down any road, I also cant believe that there is a serious market for motorhome panels to warrant all this alleged increase in thefts. but who knows.... Andy The police told me that if the van has been stolen for parts it is probably in the chop shop before the owner knows it has gone. In my case they would have had 8 hours so could have been 400 miles away. Any motorhome panels will be chucked away. The thing about MH theft is that the vehicle will be parked up in the same location every day, so it is not opportunistic. In fact I'm pretty sure I saw the people who did the first reccy in the evening because they were standing opposite when they were on the phone and not walking, just looked a bit out of place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 andy mccord - 2018-11-21 2:58 PM Muswell, which is my point, why not just nick a 3 month old ducato van, its far less visible than a coachbuilt motorhome driving down any road, I also cant believe that there is a serious market for motorhome panels to warrant all this alleged increase in thefts. but who knows.... Sorry Andy, you're not getting it. There may not be a big market for motorhome panels, but the base vehicle parts are desirable for the reasons I've mentioned. The reason a lot of stolen vehicles are broken up these days is that its actually quite easy to make a lot more from selling the parts than the vehicle may be worth as a whole, and with a much smaller chance of detection. Try advertising a low mileage very clean looking Ducato engine and an identical dirty, oily looking engine that covered 150,000 miles. Which would you go for? They're not even saying that there's been a big increase in motorhome thefts as far as I can see. What they are saying is that they've noticed an increase in the number of Fiat vans being reported stolen. Up until now, Fiat vans have been relatively less prone to theft than Fords because of the method by which Fiat secure the ECU against unauthorised key programming attacks. It seems that there's been a sudden upsurge in the numbers of Fiat vans reported stolen, particularly without keys, and the fact that one of the main suppliers of these compromise devices has recently announced that they've apparently cracked the Fiat immobiliser security on current Ducato vans seems to be more than a coincidence. But the parts are just one aspect. There's actually a pretty big market for motorhomes at present and they've always been desirable, so they are probably more likely these days to get cloned than your average van, rather than broken up. Now, say I've had my eye on your Benimar Tessoro 486. I come along one night and take it off your driveway or wherever in less than a couple of minutes with my key pick and immobiliser bypass device. Straight into my rented barn out in the countryside where no-one really sees what's going on, and probably wouldn't have seen me turning up in the middle of the night anyway. It's a nice van, so I think I want to sell it on. I've got at least two options. First, I could remove some or all of the graphics, give it a bit of a paint job and transfer the identity of say a similar model Ford van onto it, then advertise it relatively cheaply with a suitable back story. Someone looking for a secondhand motorhome with a fresh wad of cash burning a hole in their pocket just released from their pension or the value of their house, sees a 2018 motorhome for sale say, at a price well below what they thought would have to be paid for a similar vehicle. So they come and have a look at it. It's a Ford and the VIN I've cloned onto it from the 2018 Ford van matches, they're happy to believe my story about how the van looks like it does now, but it's immaculate inside with all sorts of bells and whistles, and they don't want to ask too many questions, because they'll never in a million years get anything else like it for the price. Of course, they didn't come to look at it at my house or barn. That would be very silly. No, I arranged to meet them in a car park after giving them another cock and bull story on my unregistered PAYG phone that I'll be dumping anyway as soon as the deal is done. Still not really believing their luck, they hand me a big wad of cash and I disappear into the sunset, knowing that even if they realise they've been had 10 minutes later, they'll never see me again. Or perhaps I have a quick look on the internet. Ah, Marquis Motorhomes currently have a used 2017 Benimar Tessoro T486 for sale. https://www.marquisleisure.co.uk/motorhomes/stock-item/benimar-tessoro-t486-40667 That will do nicely, and the registration mark is both in the advert and the photo of the van. Even better! A quick HPI check gets me the VIN that I need to transfer onto your van, and up it goes for sale again. This time, it looks exactly as it should, any prospective purchaser's HPI check is going to check out because it'll come back to the exact same make and model of van. I notice the "donor" van is on Marquis' website for £45,995, so I'll stick mine on eBay for £39,995. I can even drop another few grand once I've got a sucker (sorry, customer) in front of me if they seem to be wavering a bit. Yep, job done. I've sold it for £38K, and the likelihood is it won't get found out that quickly, beinmg as the genuine van is with a dealer, so no current keeper to worry about. But, you say, I've just sold "your" van, worth over £50K, for £38K. Well, don't forget it didn't cost me anything to acquire it, apart from a few hours dishonest work - oh, and the cost of the kit to let me nick it. But even the kit at a couple of grand works out as a very minor business expense after a few more jobs like this one! Next time, I might look for a Fiat based MH. Even easier to disguise because it doesn't take much work to visually change a Ducato into a Boxer or a Relay as far as your average punter is concerned! You also say a motorhome is far more visible than a van driving down any road. To you or me maybe, we have an interest in them. To your average member of the public? I wouldn't be so sure. And as to the type of motorhome, well there's one thing that makes them less visible than a van. Ask a policeman to look out for a stolen blue Ford Transit. Nigh on every copper out there will have a very good idea what they're looking for. Ask them to look out for a stolen white Benimar Tessoro. Well, I own a MH and I have to admit I had to look it up on Google to find out what one looks like. Your average bobby isn't going to have a clue. What's on your V5C? Does it show the make as Ford and the model as a Transit Benimar Tessoro T486? If it does, your very lucky, but I'll bet there's a good chance that it doesn't :-| A final tale. A year or so before I retired we had a sudden spate of Transit vans and MHs being stolen in one small corner of the area I worked in. The overall number of vehicles was approaching three figures in less than 6 months. One night, a patrolling bobby noticed a group of people acting suspiciously and with some assistance, apprehended them. They had a bypass device, lock pick and other associated equipment in their possession. I made a video to play in court showing how I could enter and drive away any old Transit vans using the equipment recovered from them. They claimed to be group of self employed mechanics who needed the equipment in their work. They were unable to produce any paperwork, bank records or other evidence to support that claim, but nevertheless a jury of their peers chose to believe there was insufficient evidence to convict them. But in the next 6 months, "only" 3 Transit vans were allegedly stolen in the same area. Now I'm retired, like you I probably never hear of vehicles being stolen in my locality, apart from odd newspaper reports, so I can understand your scepticism. But for years, I would turn up for work and sit at my desk at the start of every day to be greeted by the details of up to 20 or more vehicles stolen from driveways or the street outside people's houses overnight along our relatively small section of the M25 corridor. Originally it was by burgling the house for the keys, often with the occupants asleep inside. Latterly, it was more common for them to just disappear by keyless theft, i.e. electronic compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Deneb - 2018-11-21 5:21 PM But for years, I would turn up for work and sit at my desk at the start of every day to be greeted by the details of up to 20 or more vehicles stolen from driveways or the street outside people's houses overnight along our relatively small section of the M25 corridor. Originally it was by burgling the house for the keys, often with the occupants asleep inside. Latterly, it was more common for them to just disappear by keyless theft, i.e. electronic compromise. Maybe mine was one of them. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrix Meanderer Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Maybe try this: On holiday this year a Brit showed me how he fitted a long hasp padlock through the steering column joint (at the bottom) on his Fiat Ducato. It was quick, easy to get to and totally immobilised the steering wheel. Would need an angle grinder to cut it off which should slow the low life down a lot. Not visible from the outside however but seemed a cheap effective extra layer of security. Worth a try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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