French A-frame "ruling"?...possibly..?

[pepe63xnotuse]

Picked up the following link from another forum..

I've no idea if it's anything really new?(..as Google Translate left a bit unclear)but some seemed to be saying that A -frames, were now clearly illegal to use in France..?

(I don't know, nor care, either way, it's just a possible heads up for any A framers.. ;-) )

 

http://www.lemondeducampingcar.fr/actualite/infos/la-voiture-tractee-par-le-camping-car-il-faut-y-renoncer.html

 

 

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

I expect the French will just ignore any rules.............seem to be more Frogs with Toads every time we cross the ditch :D ...............

[Muswell]

Well it does seem that in May the authorities confirmed it was not allowed. The discussion on the forum could be just like here.....except it didn't develop into a slanging match. Interesting that one poster points out it is allowed in the UK and then we use them in France.

[Rayjsj]

Interesting, here is a page from the Car-a-Tow website, that states that this 'Remora' A-Frame has been ' Homogolated ' ? for specific use in France, and Car-a-tow no longer sells into that market,

however,to me the 'Remora' just looks like a Car-a-Tow unit that has been sprayed red !! But if it gets made legal in France, perhaps there is hope for us ?

Demanding 'money with menaces' just before a By election, makes me think that the EU wants us to leave anyway. (lol) Ray

 

http://www.caratow.com/remora.php

[sooty10]

Was going to add a picture but the file is too large. Must try later. sorry

[Retread24800]

The A frame may be homologated as conforming to certain European rules (94/20/CE), however the use of an A frame is still disallowed on the road.

[AlanS]

I have been having a nose around on the internet and came across the following - it was in response to a question raised by Julie Girling MEP for South West England to the European Commission.

 

 

European Commission Clarification on A-Frames

 

Created: 06 September 2011

Further to a number of constituent enquiries, Julie recently asked the European Commission to clarify the legality of A-Frame tow bars for towing small cars behind motor-homes with regard to Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Italy and Croatia? Read the full question and the response from the Commission here.

 

Question for written answer E-007695/2011 to the Commission Rule 117. Julie Girling (ECR)

 

 

Subject: A-Frame compatibility

 

 

Can the Commission please clarify the legality of A-Frame tow bars for towing small cars behind motor-homes with regard to Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Italy and Croatia?

 

 

Could the Commission also please clarify if any restrictions in said countries have a consequence as regards the right of temporary passing through or short stay for cars with A-Frames?

 

 

E-007695/2011 Answer given by Mr Tajani on behalf of the Commission

 

A combination of vehicles made up of a towing vehicle and a towed vehicle, both of which are in category M1 (specifically a motor-home and a car), falls outside the scope of EU law.

 

The Vienna Convention on Road Traffic of 8 November 1968 serves as the reference document in this matter.

 

Among other things, Annex 5 of the above-mentioned Convention sets out the conditions to be met by all vehicles in international traffic but only covers motor vehicles towing a ‘trailer designed to be coupled to a motor vehicle’.

 

Apart from emergency breakdown towing, none of the Convention provisions concern towing of a car using an ‘A-frame’ tow bar . Each contracting party may therefore apply its own national legislation in the matter.

 

The Commission does not have any information on the national rules which apply in the Member States and candidate countries referred to by the Honourable Member.

 

With regard to transit via countries in which such vehicle combinations are banned, the absence of relevant provisions in the Vienna Convention means that the contracting parties involved may restrict or ban such traffic.

 

So it seems to me that each country can apply its own rules / legislation regarding to the use of A Frames in their own country and apply it to both their own 'countrymen' and visitors.

 

Alan

 

[Guest pelmetman]

AlanS - 2014-10-26 10:44 PM

 

 

So it seems to me that each country can apply its own rules / legislation regarding to the use of A Frames in their own country and apply it to both their own 'countrymen' and visitors.

 

Alan

 

So much for being in a common market *-) ....................

 

 

[peedee]

To me, the rules on the Continent are irrelevent. I cannot see the point in towing a car anywhere across the channel when the countries are so much more motorhome friendly. Public transport is not bad either!

peedee

[Derek Uzzell]

The arguments put forward by companies retailing car-towing A-frames in France that the practice was legal in that country were based on an interpretation of the Vienna Convention and/or ‘homologation’ of the A-frame itself as a towing device. Neither argument was persuasive, but this did not prevent A-frames being sold/fitted or used in France over the past several years by French residents and involving French-registered vehicles.

 

That one motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle (other than in an emergency) conflicted with the French ‘Code de la Route’ is not a new counter-argument to the legality of A-frame towing in France. It was reported in French motorhome magazines at the beginning of 2013 and there did not appear to be any ambiguity at that time about the ‘Code' conflict.

 

The latest advice confirms what was said in France before but gives it more weight, particularly the caveat about insurance. It remains to be seen whether French A-framers will cease A-framing in France as a result.

 

Not sure about the impact of the ruling on UK A-framers travelling in France. It seems to be generally believed there that A-framing with a motorhome is 100% legal in the UK irrespective of the type of A-frame involved, so the Vienna Convention ‘override’ argument might provide some protection. Conversely, if the contrary to the Code de la Route argument is claimed to apply to everybody driving in France, not just to French residents, the present position would seem to be similar to that of Spain.

 

What’s now needed is for someone A-framing in France to be prosecuted to establish a legal precedent...

[Muswell]

Volunteers?

[PJay]

Bet the first one fined , is not FRENCH?? Probably waiting for an Englshman!

 

Guess it will be back to caravans again then ?

PJay

[Guest Had Enough]

peedee - 2014-10-27 7:38 AM

 

To me, the rules on the Continent are irrelevent. I cannot see the point in towing a car anywhere across the channel when the countries are so much more motorhome friendly. Public transport is not bad either!

peedee

 

You're right of course. People who wish to take a small car when they go to Spain to spend the winter are congenital idiots who've never thought about their requirements and just tow a vehicle for some kind of Pavlovian and unthinking reason.

 

How dare they! Don't they know how friendly Europe is to motorhomes and how much easier it would be do do a day's touring of the nearby region by getting on and off half a dozen buses?

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Calm down Frank! :-) Nothing stops them loading the car onto a trailer, and towing it that way.

[Guest Had Enough]

Brian Kirby - 2014-10-27 12:45 PM

 

Calm down Frank! :-) Nothing stops them loading the car onto a trailer, and towing it that way.

 

But that's just as stupid and idiotic. Why on earth would they want to do that when 'across the channel countries are so much more motorhome friendly and public transport is not bad either!

 

Silly idiots! Don't they ever stop to think about what their requirements really are? Why would anyone spending a few months of winter in Spain need a small car? Get on the bus. In some villages they run twice a week. ;-)

 

A frame or trailer, what's it matter? Either is just as unnecessary! *-)

[StuartO]

I tow a car of a trailer and apart from a bit of extra cost for the length on the ferry (I think) I find it easy enough. I have the space to store the trailer but if I didn't then they are very easy to hire when you need one. I did use an A Frame for a brief period some years ago but I find the trailer easier, better and cheaper overall. A Frames are expensive, car transporter trailers are widely available and they can be sold almost as easily as they are bought.

 

I don't see anything dangerous or even unsafe about towing with an A Frame but it doesn't seem to be reliably acceptable to the law anywhere in Europe, even in UK. The statement from the EU bureaucrat in this thread suggests to me that there is zero chance of getting widespread political support to get them made legal aross the EU so it's a dead duck as far as I'm concerned. Spanish and now perhaps also French police will stop and prosecute when they feel like it.

 

So while i feel sorry for the manufacturers of what is potentially a clever, useful and safe bit of kit, I don't see any point in flogging a dead legal horse by risking continuing to use an A Frame, especially outside UK, and I certainly wouldn't buy another one.

 

There will be motorhomers for who the additional 200-300 kg towed weight of a trailer makes a critical difference and exceeds what their MH can cope with, but I think they need to find a different solution than an A Frame if they want to tour abroad unmolested from now on.

[Retread24800]

Had Enough - 2014-10-27 12:43 PM

peedee - 2014-10-27 7:38 AMTo me, the rules on the Continent are irrelevent. I cannot see the point in towing a car anywhere across the channel when the countries are so much more motorhome friendly. Public transport is not bad either!peedee

You're right of course. People who wish to take a small car when they go to Spain to spend the winter are congenital idiots who've never thought about their requirements and just tow a vehicle for some kind of Pavlovian and unthinking reason.How dare they! Don't they know how friendly Europe is to motorhomes and how much easier it would be do do a day's touring of the nearby region by getting on and off half a dozen buses?

Perhaps, while you were perambulating through Spain in the off season you may have seen the car hire offers of about 10€ per day, now what I want to know is do I want to buy a small car, wreck it by towing it on an A frame , the first time I try to reverse round a corner, pay the extra on the ferry and the cost of an A frame  or hire a car if and when I need it? 

[Brian Kirby]

Had Enough - 2014-10-27 1:21 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2014-10-27 12:45 PM

 

Calm down Frank! :-) Nothing stops them loading the car onto a trailer, and towing it that way.

 

But that's just as stupid and idiotic. Why on earth would they want to do that when 'across the channel countries are so much more motorhome friendly and public transport is not bad either!

 

Silly idiots! Don't they ever stop to think about what their requirements really are? Why would anyone spending a few months of winter in Spain need a small car? Get on the bus. In some villages they run twice a week. ;-)

 

A frame or trailer, what's it matter? Either is just as unnecessary! *-)

Based on which, I deduce that you are either considering towing a car behind your new behemoth, or have totally chickened out and are going back to towing a caravan! :-D

[Brian Kirby]

Retread24800 - 2014-10-27 6:05 PM

Had Enough - 2014-10-27 12:43 PM

peedee - 2014-10-27 7:38 AMTo me, the rules on the Continent are irrelevent. I cannot see the point in towing a car anywhere across the channel when the countries are so much more motorhome friendly. Public transport is not bad either!peedee

You're right of course. People who wish to take a small car when they go to Spain to spend the winter are congenital idiots who've never thought about their requirements and just tow a vehicle for some kind of Pavlovian and unthinking reason.How dare they! Don't they know how friendly Europe is to motorhomes and how much easier it would be do do a day's touring of the nearby region by getting on and off half a dozen buses?

Perhaps, while you were perambulating through Spain in the off season you may have seen the car hire offers of about 10€ per day, now what I want to know is do I want to buy a small car, wreck it by towing it on an A frame , the first time I try to reverse round a corner, pay the extra on the ferry and the cost of an A frame  or hire a car if and when I need it? 

I think you should also ask yourself if you really want to drive a car that you can hire for €10 per day. :-)

[Guest Had Enough]

Brian Kirby - 2014-10-27 6:07 PM

 

Had Enough - 2014-10-27 1:21 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2014-10-27 12:45 PM

 

Calm down Frank! :-) Nothing stops them loading the car onto a trailer, and towing it that way.

 

But that's just as stupid and idiotic. Why on earth would they want to do that when 'across the channel countries are so much more motorhome friendly and public transport is not bad either!

 

Silly idiots! Don't they ever stop to think about what their requirements really are? Why would anyone spending a few months of winter in Spain need a small car? Get on the bus. In some villages they run twice a week. ;-)

 

A frame or trailer, what's it matter? Either is just as unnecessary! *-)

Based on which, I deduce that you are either considering towing a car behind your new behemoth, or have totally chickened out and are going back to towing a caravan! :-D

 

Behemoth? I think that at 7.10 metres mine's shorter than yours isn't it? Or am I thinking of Lenny?

 

No, absolutely not. I can never contemplate that happening as we're never likely to be one of those couples who goes away for three months. We've too much going on at home and five weeks at a time is best for us.

 

But I can understand why people tow a small car. An acquaintance spends the winter in Portugal or Spain and, as he's staying in one place for the duration, he takes a car.

 

But in summer he's like you and me and tours Europe, so on those trips he doesn't take his car. He gets the best of both worlds in that he's like a caravanner in winter and has the convenience of a car for exploring and shopping, but in summer he has the freedom and independence that a motorhome gives us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Retread24800]

Brian Kirby - 2014-10-27 7:12 PM

Retread24800 - 2014-10-27 6:05 PM

Had Enough - 2014-10-27 12:43 PM

peedee - 2014-10-27 7:38 AMTo me, the rules on the Continent are irrelevent. I cannot see the point in towing a car anywhere across the channel when the countries are so much more motorhome friendly. Public transport is not bad either!peedee

You're right of course. People who wish to take a small car when they go to Spain to spend the winter are congenital idiots who've never thought about their requirements and just tow a vehicle for some kind of Pavlovian and unthinking reason.How dare they! Don't they know how friendly Europe is to motorhomes and how much easier it would be do do a day's touring of the nearby region by getting on and off half a dozen buses?

Perhaps, while you were perambulating through Spain in the off season you may have seen the car hire offers of about 10€ per day, now what I want to know is do I want to buy a small car, wreck it by towing it on an A frame , the first time I try to reverse round a corner, pay the extra on the ferry and the cost of an A frame  or hire a car if and when I need it? 

I think you should also ask yourself if you really want to drive a car that you can hire for €10 per day. :-)

I was going up market knowing that the usual suspects would be able to A frame their Mulsannes down to Spain at zero cost but a FIAT 500 at 44€ per week can't be all bad and remember caveat emptor . Perhaps 3 days hire Corsa size for 70€ from Avis ?

[Robinhood]

Had Enough - 2014-10-27 6:21 PM

 

Behemoth? I think that at 7.10 metres mine's shorter than yours isn't it? Or am I thinking of Lenny?

 

 

...it's a 5.3 tonne Juggernaut, Frank (or at least it will feel like it first time you drive it ;-) )

 

Have you picked it up yet?

 

 

[Guest Had Enough]

Robinhood - 2014-10-27 6:40 PM

 

Had Enough - 2014-10-27 6:21 PM

 

Behemoth? I think that at 7.10 metres mine's shorter than yours isn't it? Or am I thinking of Lenny?

 

 

...it's a 5.3 tonne Juggernaut, Frank (or at least it will feel like it first time you drive it ;-) )

 

Have you picked it up yet?

 

 

No, it's now got type approval and last Monday the forms went to Swansea for registering with the DVLA. When I get a registration number I'll insure it and go and pick it up on my first free day, which will be the middle of next week if all goes well at Swansea.

 

In the meantime they're fitting Gaslow, a solar panel, a Thatcham alarm and a dual reversing camera.

 

I'm not sure that the weight will make it any harder to drive than any other 2.35 metres-wide motorhomes and I'm hoping that the 3 litre Mercedes engine with a seven-speed automatic gearbox will make it quite relaxing. So there! ;-)

[Rayjsj]

Retread24800 - 2014-10-27 6:05 PM

Had Enough - 2014-10-27 12:43 PM

peedee - 2014-10-27 7:38 AMTo me, the rules on the Continent are irrelevent. I cannot see the point in towing a car anywhere across the channel when the countries are so much more motorhome friendly. Public transport is not bad either!peedee

You're right of course. People who wish to take a small car when they go to Spain to spend the winter are congenital idiots who've never thought about their requirements and just tow a vehicle for some kind of Pavlovian and unthinking reason.How dare they! Don't they know how friendly Europe is to motorhomes and how much easier it would be do do a day's touring of the nearby region by getting on and off half a dozen buses?

Perhaps, while you were perambulating through Spain in the off season you may have seen the car hire offers of about 10€ per day, now what I want to know is do I want to buy a small car, wreck it by towing it on an A frame , the first time I try to reverse round a corner, pay the extra on the ferry and the cost of an A frame  or hire a car if and when I need it? 

What was all that about ?cars are not wrecked by being towed on an a-frame. And you can reverse albeit not around a corner. Hiring a car .fine at weekends but not during the week.

[Brian Kirby]

Had Enough - 2014-10-27 6:21 PM............Behemoth? I think that at 7.10 metres mine's shorter than yours isn't it? Or am I thinking of Lenny?................

No, that is Lenny. Ours is a forelock tuggingly modest 6.75M long. I think you may be being a bit optimistic about DVAL's turn around time, though, but it would be nice to hear that my doubts are unfounded.