French speed limits

[Billggski]

Macron has just announced that the reduction from 90kph to 80, although nationwide, can be overruled by local mayors if they think it inappropriate..

Nothing to do with the imminent elections of course.

So, some roads will say 90, because they haven't changed the signs yet, but actually be 80.

Some roads will say 80, because they have changed the signs, but really be 90, because the local mayor has decided not to implement it.

Stay safe.

[Nicepix]

When the new 80kph limit came into force one department refused to change the road signs arguing that as it was a national policy they, the department, should not have to pay to change the signs. The Department Prefect publicly stated that if the government wanted to change the speed limits they were welcome to come and change the signs but he would not be doing so. In the end the government funded the changes.

 

The problem with Macron's new thoughts are that many of the roads you would travel though are Departmental and not regulated by the local communes so whilst they pass through a commune all the maintenance and regulations is funded by the Department. I cannot see local Maires funding road sign changes and the necessary paperwork needed for the likes of Google, TomTom and Garmin, let alone the Gendarmes to work on.

 

Fortunately in our area over 90% of the speed cameras are out of action and I haven't seen one single police speed trap since the 80kph limits came about.

[Derek Uzzell]

These are two very recent French webpages relating to this matter

 

http://www.leparisien.fr/politique/80km-h-pourquoi-edouard-philippe-fait-marche-arriere-17-05-2019-8073717.php

 

http://www.leparisien.fr/societe/le-retour-du-90-km-h-en-cinq-questions-16-05-2019-8073567.php

 

A GOOGLE translation of the latter reads as follows:

 

THE RETURN OF THE 90 KM/H IN FIVE QUESTIONS

 

Roads concerned, panels to replace, GPS navigators to update ... what consequences will the abandonment of the limitation to 80 km / h?

 

The end of the 80 km/h generalized? Édouard Philippe opened the way this Thursday morning on France Info, while this measure is controversial since its entry into force in July 2018. The Prime Minister explained seeing "no inconvenience" to the presidents of county councils decide, themselves, the choice of the maximum speed on their roads.

 

When will the measure be applied?

 

Not before a few months. If the rule of principle will remain a limit of 80 km / h on national and departmental roads, presidents of county councils will have the power in the future to increase the maximum speed on certain sections. But it will first be necessary that this amendment led by the LREM group be adopted in the National Assembly as part of the draft law on mobility. The text must be voted, at best, this summer.

 

However, a road safety expert believes that the application of this measure by local elected representatives should take longer: "I would be surprised if the law does not require the establishment of an impact study to measure 'effect of this measure,' he slips. The Prime Minister himself has set a condition: that this power of department presidents be "systematically accompanied by measures" guaranteeing "the highest level of road safety possible”.

 

How many roads will be affected?

 

Impossible to say for the moment. The limitation to 80 km / h is now in place on 400 000 km of national roads and two-way departmental. Once the law and its implementing decree are published, each department will be able to decide which parts of these roads, on their territory, will be raised or not to 90.

The most favorable to a return to 90 km / h are the most isolated departments such as those in the center of France, Ardeche, Cantal, Corrèze, Creuse or Dordogne. Others give themselves, for the most part, the time for reflection. This is the case of Patrick Septiers, president (UDI) of the Seine-et-Marne departmental council, of which 3,100 kilometers of roads out of 4,324 are at 80 km / h: "The criteria of the text remain unknown, we have produced several scenarios taking into account the number of visitors, the characteristics of the roads and the accidentology observed. “

 

What will be the impact on road safety?

 

The association 40 million motorists welcomed without surprise "a victory for us and the safety of the roads". But the president of the League against road violence, Chantal Perrichon, is convinced, she, that the number of accidents and deaths at the wheel will increase because of this decision.

"When the presidents of county councils decide to go back from 80 to 90 km / h, they will do it on what they call the beautiful straight roads where there is the most traffic, but which are also the most dangerous and they will pay dearly, "says the president of the League. "These beautiful roads, we drive faster and they are three to five times more deadly than others," confirms a road safety specialist.

While the accident experts estimated that the generalized reduction of speeds to 80 km / h would have saved about 400 lives per year, this specialist predicts: "By crossing axes at 90 km / h, there will inevitably a rise in the number of deaths on the roads. “

 

Will it be necessary to replace panels again?

 

The implementation of the speed limit at 80 km / h has resulted in an average change of a hundred panels per department. If a departmental representative decides to increase the limit to 90 km / h on certain portions, it will be necessary to actually change them. An expensive operation for the taxpayer.

Asked a few months ago about the replacement of 20 000 panels "90", the interministerial delegate for road safety had told us that he estimated the cost of this operation between 6 and 12 million euros. "In any case, there will be many more signs indicating different speed limits on the roads and those who were already complaining of having to constantly adjust their speed will be served," says a government member who defended the 80 km limit. / h.

 

Will it be necessary to update the GPS navigators?

 

Yes, as it was already the case when the 80 km / h in 2018. The approximately 1.7 million users of Coyote brand cases, or its application on smartphone, will see their devices, equipped with a SIM card and thus communicating, to update automatically as and when decisions taken by the departments.

 

Those equipped with TomTom, between 5 and 6 million in France, benefit from free updates for life. They will have to connect their device to the Internet. "The new cards will be available between one week and fifteen days after publication by the departments," says Vincent Martinier, Marketing Manager at TomTom. The procedure will be similar to the one we made available on July 1, 2018 when the limitation to 80 km / h came into effect, but will be a little trickier to conduct because it will be necessary to make lace to identify each lane according to the departments. “

 

Motorists with a built-in GPS will need them, most of the time by putting their hand in the pocket, reset their system by entrusting their vehicle to their dealer for an update or buying, for older devices, a new version of the mapping software.

[Nicepix]

What M. Philipe has effectively done is try to pass the burden of unpopularityof his measures to others as was intimated in the OP. He still sticks to his view that the lower speed limits will save lives and stated that others have difficulty in understanding that. In some ways he is like the soldier claiming that everyone is out of step but him.

 

What has happened in France is that cars now cannot legally overtake HGVs that are travelling along departmental roads at 80kph. This causes a backlog which in turn can increase the risk of someone overtaking inconsiderately or recklessly. I see this all the time on my travels.

 

If you look at the stats concerning causation factors of accidents on French roads speed is well behind drink and drugs as the major causation factor. And if you further examine the stats you find that speed as a causation factor when the vehicles are travelling within the speed limit is further reduced. You cannot legislate for drivers who disobey speed limits so reducing these limits will not make those who disobey speed limits drive any slower.

 

These measures are a total dog's breakfast purely designed to lessen the general dislike for Macron in the lead up to the European elections. They will come to nothing because they cannot easily be implemented.

[aandy]

Nicepix - 2019-05-18 10:37 AM

 

What M. Philipe has effectively done is try to pass the burden of unpopularityof his measures to others as was intimated in the OP. He still sticks to his view that the lower speed limits will save lives and stated that others have difficulty in understanding that. In some ways he is like the soldier claiming that everyone is out of step but him.

 

What has happened in France is that cars now cannot legally overtake HGVs that are travelling along departmental roads at 80kph. This causes a backlog which in turn can increase the risk of someone overtaking inconsiderately or recklessly. I see this all the time on my travels.

 

If you look at the stats concerning causation factors of accidents on French roads speed is well behind drink and drugs as the major causation factor. And if you further examine the stats you find that speed as a causation factor when the vehicles are travelling within the speed limit is further reduced. You cannot legislate for drivers who disobey speed limits so reducing these limits will not make those who disobey speed limits drive any slower.

 

These measures are a total dog's breakfast purely designed to lessen the general dislike for Macron in the lead up to the European elections. They will come to nothing because they cannot easily be implemented.

 

I don't want to be obtuse (well, perhaps a bit), but if a lorry is traveling at 80 and the limit is 80, why would anyone need to overtake it and how would being unable to do so cause a tailback?

[Nicepix]

aandy - 2019-05-18 3:05 PM

 

Nicepix - 2019-05-18 10:37 AM

 

What M. Philipe has effectively done is try to pass the burden of unpopularityof his measures to others as was intimated in the OP. He still sticks to his view that the lower speed limits will save lives and stated that others have difficulty in understanding that. In some ways he is like the soldier claiming that everyone is out of step but him.

 

What has happened in France is that cars now cannot legally overtake HGVs that are travelling along departmental roads at 80kph. This causes a backlog which in turn can increase the risk of someone overtaking inconsiderately or recklessly. I see this all the time on my travels.

 

If you look at the stats concerning causation factors of accidents on French roads speed is well behind drink and drugs as the major causation factor. And if you further examine the stats you find that speed as a causation factor when the vehicles are travelling within the speed limit is further reduced. You cannot legislate for drivers who disobey speed limits so reducing these limits will not make those who disobey speed limits drive any slower.

 

These measures are a total dog's breakfast purely designed to lessen the general dislike for Macron in the lead up to the European elections. They will come to nothing because they cannot easily be implemented.

 

I don't want to be obtuse (well, perhaps a bit), but if a lorry is traveling at 80 and the limit is 80, why would anyone need to overtake it and how would being unable to do so cause a tailback?

 

Because HGVs often slow down for hills and cannot accelerate away from junctions and traffic lights as fast as other vehicles. In many cases there are solid white lines or other restrictions on overtaking when the HGVs are travelling slower than a car could. Add to that the restrictions on HGVs overtaking on many D roads and you regularly get a long convoy of vehicles stuck behind a slow moving HGV.

[david lloyd]

Billggski - 2019-05-17 9:18 PM

 

Macron has just announced that the reduction from 90kph to 80, although nationwide, can be overruled by local mayors if they think it inappropriate..

Nothing to do with the imminent elections of course.

So, some roads will say 90, because they haven't changed the signs yet, but actually be 80.

Some roads will say 80, because they have changed the signs, but really be 90, because the local mayor has decided not to implement it.

Stay safe.

 

It could be worse. It was rumoured that all EU countries would gradually convert to driving on the left. The finely detailed plan would see all cars, motorcycles, pedal cycles under 3.5t change to driving on the left by 1 August with buses, HGV's changing over the following week. Emergency vehicles displaying blue flashing lights and sounding any warning devices will be able to use their discretion about which side to drive on when responding to an emergency call

[aandy]

Nicepix - 2019-05-18 2:40 PM

 

Because HGVs often slow down for hills and cannot accelerate away from junctions and traffic lights as fast as other vehicles. In many cases there are solid white lines or other restrictions on overtaking when the HGVs are travelling slower than a car could. Add to that the restrictions on HGVs overtaking on many D roads and you regularly get a long convoy of vehicles stuck behind a slow moving HGV.

 

So, when the HGV slows for the hill the car can overtake legally. Problem solved.

[Guest pelmetman]

Billggski - 2019-05-17 9:18 PM

 

Macron has just announced that the reduction from 90kph to 80, although nationwide, can be overruled by local mayors if they think it inappropriate..

Nothing to do with the imminent elections of course.

So, some roads will say 90, because they haven't changed the signs yet, but actually be 80.

Some roads will say 80, because they have changed the signs, but really be 90, because the local mayor has decided not to implement it.

Stay safe.

 

So now you're state of the art campers are restricted to the same maximum speed as my last century camper? ;-) .......

 

Progress eh? :D .......

 

 

 

 

[Nicepix]

aandy - 2019-05-18 6:14 PM

 

Nicepix - 2019-05-18 2:40 PM

 

Because HGVs often slow down for hills and cannot accelerate away from junctions and traffic lights as fast as other vehicles. In many cases there are solid white lines or other restrictions on overtaking when the HGVs are travelling slower than a car could. Add to that the restrictions on HGVs overtaking on many D roads and you regularly get a long convoy of vehicles stuck behind a slow moving HGV.

 

So, when the HGV slows for the hill the car can overtake legally. Problem solved.

 

As I said; " In many cases there are solid white lines or other restrictions on overtaking when the HGVs are travelling slower than a car could"

[Nicepix]

pelmetman - 2019-05-18 6:22 PM

 

Billggski - 2019-05-17 9:18 PM

 

Macron has just announced that the reduction from 90kph to 80, although nationwide, can be overruled by local mayors if they think it inappropriate..

Nothing to do with the imminent elections of course.

So, some roads will say 90, because they haven't changed the signs yet, but actually be 80.

Some roads will say 80, because they have changed the signs, but really be 90, because the local mayor has decided not to implement it.

Stay safe.

 

So now you're state of the art campers are restricted to the same maximum speed as my last century camper? ;-) .......

 

Progress eh? :D .......

 

 

 

 

Not on dual carriageways ;-)

 

We went from a 1986 Le Voyageur with a Citroen C25 non-turbo unit pumping out a massive 73bhp to a Merc' Sprinter based van with over double that. Believe me, I can tell the difference :-D

[aandy]

Nicepix - 2019-05-18 5:43 PM

 

aandy - 2019-05-18 6:14 PM

 

Nicepix - 2019-05-18 2:40 PM

 

Because HGVs often slow down for hills and cannot accelerate away from junctions and traffic lights as fast as other vehicles. In many cases there are solid white lines or other restrictions on overtaking when the HGVs are travelling slower than a car could. Add to that the restrictions on HGVs overtaking on many D roads and you regularly get a long convoy of vehicles stuck behind a slow moving HGV.

 

So, when the HGV slows for the hill the car can overtake legally. Problem solved.

 

As I said; " In many cases there are solid white lines or other restrictions on overtaking when the HGVs are travelling slower than a car could"

 

But in those instances you still wouldn't be able to overtake if the limit was 100kph.

[Nicepix]

aandy - 2019-05-18 9:12 PM

 

Nicepix - 2019-05-18 5:43 PM

 

aandy - 2019-05-18 6:14 PM

 

Nicepix - 2019-05-18 2:40 PM

 

Because HGVs often slow down for hills and cannot accelerate away from junctions and traffic lights as fast as other vehicles. In many cases there are solid white lines or other restrictions on overtaking when the HGVs are travelling slower than a car could. Add to that the restrictions on HGVs overtaking on many D roads and you regularly get a long convoy of vehicles stuck behind a slow moving HGV.

 

So, when the HGV slows for the hill the car can overtake legally. Problem solved.

 

As I said; " In many cases there are solid white lines or other restrictions on overtaking when the HGVs are travelling slower than a car could"

 

But in those instances you still wouldn't be able to overtake if the limit was 100kph.

 

And of course you would be able to overtake where it was possible to do so and therefore would then not be stuck behind it on the slow sections.

[aandy]

"And of course you would be able to overtake where it was possible"

 

You could equally argue for the limit to be raised to100, on the basis that that would create further opportunities to overtake, thus further reducing the chances of being stuck behind a lorry.

 

Or you could just accept that we all sometimes get stuck behind slower traffic, no matter what the limit.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment of the rationale behind the reduction, but I'm not sure the case you've put forward so far is any more persuasive.

[Nicepix]

aandy - 2019-05-18 10:28 PM

 

"And of course you would be able to overtake where it was possible"

 

You could equally argue for the limit to be raised to100, on the basis that that would create further opportunities to overtake, thus further reducing the chances of being stuck behind a lorry.

 

Or you could just accept that we all sometimes get stuck behind slower traffic, no matter what the limit.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment of the rationale behind the reduction, but I'm not sure the case you've put forward so far is any more persuasive.

 

I do over 40,000 km a year driving in France. The result of reducing the speed limit is more tailbacks behind HGVs leading to more irresponsible and dangerous overtaking manoeuvres and more vehicles being driven too close to the ones in front. That is what the reality of reducing the speed limit to 80kph has achieved.

 

The argument for reducing the speed limit is based on selective reading of the accident causation statistics by omitting the element that speed on its own is rarely a causation factor if the vehicles are travelling below the legal limit. If they are travelling above the legal limit then there is no case to reduce the limit.

[Derek Uzzell]

Potential problems regarding interaction between car-driving motorists and HGV drivers were discussed prior to the French 80kmh limit being introduced, when it was said that car-drivers adhering to an (optimistic) speedometer-indicated 80kmh speed would find HGVs using cruise-control tight against their car’s rear bumper.

 

I don’t care for the 80kmh law because its application to French 3-lane roads (as I’m sure forum-members will be aware ;-) ) makes it unnecessarily complicated and (from a purely personal point of view) I used to find the French 90kmh limit sufficiently fast that I could happily drive within it, but now I find 80kmh on open roads boringly slow and deliberately trying to avoid exceeding that limit takes concentration that I’d be better applying to driving safely.

[michaelmorris]

david lloyd - 2019-05-18 3:33 PM

 

Billggski - 2019-05-17 9:18 PM

 

Macron has just announced that the reduction from 90kph to 80, although nationwide, can be overruled by local mayors if they think it inappropriate..

Nothing to do with the imminent elections of course.

So, some roads will say 90, because they haven't changed the signs yet, but actually be 80.

Some roads will say 80, because they have changed the signs, but really be 90, because the local mayor has decided not to implement it.

Stay safe.

 

It could be worse. It was rumoured that all EU countries would gradually convert to driving on the left. The finely detailed plan would see all cars, motorcycles, pedal cycles under 3.5t change to driving on the left by 1 August with buses, HGV's changing over the following week. Emergency vehicles displaying blue flashing lights and sounding any warning devices will be able to use their discretion about which side to drive on when responding to an emergency call

 

And where did this 'rumour' come from? Sounds like a complete fabrication to me.

[Billggski]

It is. But the real situation is just as daft!

[Nicepix]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-05-19 9:40 AM

 

Potential problems regarding interaction between car-driving motorists and HGV drivers were discussed prior to the French 80kmh limit being introduced, when it was said that car-drivers adhering to an (optimistic) speedometer-indicated 80kmh speed would find HGVs using cruise-control tight against their car’s rear bumper.

 

I don’t care for the 80kmh law because its application to French 3-lane roads (as I’m sure forum-members will be aware ;-) ) makes it unnecessarily complicated and (from a purely personal point of view) I used to find the French 90kmh limit sufficiently fast that I could happily drive within it, but now I find 80kmh on open roads boringly slow and deliberately trying to avoid exceeding that limit takes concentration that I’d be better applying to driving safely.

 

If you mean the stretches of dual carriageway where the limit for cars on the dual carriageway is 90kph and the oncoming single lane is 80kph I agree with you. When you follow a convoy into the 90kph zone there is often an unseemly scramble to get past the slower moving vehicles that are still restricted to 80kph. Also, under M. Phillipes proposals for every Maire to be able to decide whether a road in his or her commune is kept at 80kph or returned to 90kph would result in even greater confusion. Even now the sat-nav is not always compliant with the road signs. To expect every local commune to declare its speed limits would result in even greater inaccuracies.

[david lloyd]

Billggski - 2019-05-19 9:46 AM

 

It is. But the real situation is just as daft!

 

Sorry michaelmorris - Billggski is right just my sense of humour. Can't help but laugh at the politicians just now.

 

David

[Derek Uzzell]

Nicepix - 2019-05-19 11:34 AM

 

If you mean the stretches of dual carriageway where the limit for cars on the dual carriageway is 90kph and the oncoming single lane is 80kph I agree with you....

 

No, I wasn’t referring to dual carriageways as such, but to 3-lane roads ("routes à trois voies”) with no physical barrier between the lanes (Example in attachment below).

 

The 90kmh limit continues on the 2-lane side as long as there’s a solid line between the 2-lane and 1-lane carriageways, but that limit drops to 80kmh if a junction crosses the 3-lane road and the solid line is interrupted. On these roads my Garmin sat-nav accurately registers the 2-lane 90kmh limit altering to 80kmh at such junctions for a few seconds and then reverting to 90kmh, but obviously the device cannot react instantly. And, in the rarer instances where the 3-lane road has no solid separator line (just brokem lines between the carriageways) the 80kmh limit apples to all three lanes. Speed limit advice is provided here

 

https://www.lepermislibre.fr/code-route/cours/limitation-vitesse-80-km-h

 

but the latter situation is not mentioned.

[Nicepix]

Yes, that is what I was referring to. Dual carriageway in one direction. Single carriageway in the other. My Garmin picks up some speed limits accurately but not others. As I understand it the problem lies with the relevant authorities not making changes to the data base that is used by the satnav companies to formulate their programs. This is also why some roads that were decommissioned decades ago still appear as viable routes and some alterations to junctions or slight detours to the original route aren't shown. Under M. Phillipe's proposals the risk of confusion would be even greater.

 

Another reason not to trust the satnav for speed limits.