Gas in France queries?

[michaelmorris]

We're planning on a 2-3 week tour of Brittany later this year in our 2003 Elddis Autoquest 200. Our holiday may include some nights staying in Aires where there is no electric hookup. This would mean we will rely on gas for water heating, cooking and running the fridge. We presently have two 6kg Calorlite cylinders. By my reckoning there is a real possibility we could get pretty low on gas during the holiday.

 

What would forum members suggest as the best options for dealing with this issue?

 

Would it be possible/safe to run our water heating, cooking and fridge on butane? If yes, what would I need to allow this?

 

Thanks

 

PS I've already looked in to fitting a Gasflow system, but my quick back-of-the-fag-packet calculations

(i.e. I could be hopelessly wrong!) suggest that economics just don't seem to add up in our circumstances.

[hallii]

Refillable gas systems are not about the economics but all about the convenience. So, once you have fitted a refillable system you can just pull up at the pump and fill the cylinder|(s) up.

 

If want to use non refillable cylinders it would be best to get a French cylinder from one of the big supermarkets, I think you need a French address but maybe you know someone who could help?

 

Camping Gaz is available all over Europe and beyond, it costs a lot but it might be worth it as a standby measure.

 

If you bite the bullet and have a refillable system have the filling point on the outside of the van, many places will not allow filling if they think it looks a bit suspicious, and that includes filling points that can't be seen from the kiosk.

 

I never use electric hook ups, I use about 1 litre a day roughly 2 litres is 1 kg depending on butane/propane mix. So 6 kg might last me 12 days, if I don't run the heating.

 

H

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Michael

 

I’m going to direct you to the following two recent forum threads

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/GAS-IN-EUROPE/48534/

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Gas-in-France-Pas-de-Calor/48524/

 

As long as your French trip will not be in cold enough weather to affect butane’s vaporisation, there’s no particular reason preventing you using that gas for heating, cooking, etc. I’m guessing you are considering taking two Calor 7kg butane bottles, rather than two Calor 6kg “Calorlite” propane bottles, which might help to extend the period before the gas ran out but would not change the fact that - if you did run out - you would not be able to exchange the empty Calor bottles in France.

 

Realistically, if you ran out of gas in France you’d need to use a Campingaz (butane) canister (expensive to buy) or obtain a French bottle. In the latter case, a “Le Cube” bottle (butane or propane) is the nearest French container dimensionally to a Calor 6kg/7kg canister, which will be important if your motorhome’s gas-locker has been designed specifically to accommodate UK 6kg/7kg bottles.

[vindiboy]

I used to have gas bottles for all the countries I visited , I had a big garage storage in my previous van and could carry the bottles and regulators. I now have refillables , in my now van, so much easier to work with,, French gas bottles were easily obtained in Fuel stations and hardware shops as were the regulators Spanish too but from Car Boot sales as Spanish regulations were difficult as one had too have the van tested for gas regulations . and that cost about 250 Euros then one had to buy the Bottles from an accredited dealer. Spanish Repsol bottles could be interchanged in Portugal too and were cheaper there., where will you store the English bottles when on French gas? and think of the extra weight , refillables seem costly but soon recoup their cost in cheaper refills depending on usage of course, If you have an external Barbi point , you can connect a Gas Bottle of any origin to that via the correct bottle top regulator and gas your van that way, just turn OFF your fitted UK bottles , leaving the Foreign bottle outside your van, may need a chain for that of course ? GAZ 907 bottles are a good standby but expensive , they can be obtained Europe wide .Butane is no problem subject to the temperatures when you are using them as they do not revert to gas from liquid at low temperature [ some say they freeze, they do not.]

[michaelmorris]

Thanks for the links.

 

I'm a bit confused (no surprise there then) . We have a propane-based 'old' system' with a regulator attached to the top of the cylinder and a rubber low pressure pipe leading to the van's gas system. As long as we use the correct bottles, hoses and regulators would it be possible and safe to run my water heating, cooking and fridge on French butane without any alteration to the appliances? If not could we safely run them on French propane?

 

[StuartO]

Your "old" gas system may be using different regulated gas pressures for propane and butane, so check the pressure figure on your regulator.  If it is 30 mBar regulator your system is modern and your gas appliances will all cope with either butane or propane at the same regulated pressure. Providing you have a modern gas system you could switch to butane from a UK or French bottle simply by buying the correct regulator for that bottle.

 

If your current regulator delivers propane at a higher pressure (i.e. it is an older type of gas system) swapping over will be more complicated and you should seek expert advice. 

 

For all sorts of reasons you might be better updating your system by fitting a wall mounted gas regulator and perhaps you should take the opportunity to install at least one re-fillable gas bottle while you are at it.  The convenience of being able to refill simply by using an autogas pump at a petrol station in France is wonderful.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

michaelmorris - 2018-03-03 12:51 PM

 

Thanks for the links.

 

I'm a bit confused (no surprise there then) . We have a propane-based 'old' system' with a regulator attached to the top of the cylinder and a rubber low pressure pipe leading to the van's gas system. As long as we use the correct bottles, hoses and regulators would it be possible and safe to run my water heating, cooking and fridge on French butane without any alteration to the appliances? If not could we safely run them on French propane?

 

Your motorhome’s gas system is what I refer to in my “GAS IN EUROPE” thread as an ‘old system’, where an on-bottle 28mbar (butane) or 37mbar (propane) regulator connects to the motorhome's fixed gas pipework via a low-pressure flexible hose.

 

At present - as you are using Calorlite propane canisters - your regulator will be appropriate for propane (ie. will regulate to 37mbar) and will have a UK-norm POL end-fitting.

 

Your motorhome’s gas appliances (heaters/cooker/fridge) will have been manufactured to operate safely and efficiently EITHER on propane at a 37mbar regulated pressure OR on butane at a 28mbar regulated pressure, and this will always be the case whether the propane or butane gas comes from a UK gas bottle, a French gas botlle, or any other country’s gas bottle.

 

If you needed to connect your motorhome to a French gas bottle, you would need to ensure that the regulator used would be a 37mbar one if the French bottle contained propane, or a 28mbar regulator if the French bottle contained butane - exactly as when you were using UK propane or butane gas bottles.

 

The on-bottle regulator for a Butagaz “Le Cube” is a clip-on 27mm type and I believe it is the same as used for Calor “Patio Gas” canisters (example here)

 

https://tinyurl.com/y8mq56kx

 

Keith suggests modifying your motorhome’s gas system to include a ‘fixed’ bulkhead-mounted 30mbar regulator (ie, the ‘new system’ that was introduced in 2003 as a standard for UK-built caravans/motorhomes) and dispensing with your ‘old system’ on-bottle regulator.

 

While this would simplify connecting to UK and ‘foreign’ gas bottles, when the revised UK standard was implemented in 2003 the advice from gas suppliers and motorhome magazines/clubs was that a fixed 30mbar regulator MUST NOT be retrofitted to a leisure vehicle with a gas system that used on-bottle regulators. This advice was given not because retrofitting a 30mbar regulator would inevitably result in a catastrophic inferno, but because gas appliances designed for a 28mbar(butane) OR 37mbar(propane) pressure could function unpredictably at a midway 30mbar butane AND propane pressure. (Personally, I believe the risk involved in retrofitting a 30mbar regulator would be minimal, but the advice at the time was “DON’T”)

[michaelmorris]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-03-03 2:47 PM

 

If you needed to connect your motorhome to a French gas bottle, you would need to ensure that the regulator used would be a 37mbar one if the French bottle contained propane, or a 28mbar regulator if the French bottle contained butane - exactly as when you were using UK propane or butane gas bottles.

 

The on-bottle regulator for a Butagaz “Le Cube” is a clip-on 27mm type and I believe it is the same as used for Calor “Patio Gas” canisters (example here)

 

https://tinyurl.com/y8mq56kx

 

 

Thanks Derek

So, now for the $64,000 dollar questions -

1 - Which French butane cylinders are compatible with 28mbar regulators?

2 - Which French propane cylinders are compatible with 37mbar regulators?

3 - Where can I get hold of these regulators?

4 - Do I need any special hoses to connect these regulators to my system?

[Tony Jones]

If you're able to get LeCube propane or butane bottles (see the earlier comment about French address), a regulator often comes free. I've had one of each from our local Super U, and they gave me the appropriate regulator, (plus hose and jubilee clips!) with each one.

Unlike Calor, if you keep the paperwork, they'll give you the money back when you return the bottles, important if returning to the UK where you can't exchange them!

[michaelmorris]

Would I be correct in assuming that I could use a Campingaz 907 cylinder with a standard Campingaz regulator?

https://www.towsure.com/regulator-suits-camping-gaz?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3qH0rcHQ2QIVTbXtCh18fQfZEAQYASABEgJkY_D_BwE

 

Not the cheapest option I know.

 

Also, what would be the best option for switching between the two gas systems?

 

My apologies for all the questions, but I'm pretty inexperienced in all this and I want to make sure I get it right.

 

 

[Barryd999]

You say you are going later in the year. Are you going in Spring, Summer, Autumn? If its anytime after May I doubt you would use 24 litres of gas in 21 days unless your really going some. Our usage is usually between 0.65 to 0.85 litres per day over a long summer in France which usually includes the back end and we dont use campsites. Even in the UK in summer 21 litres will last us over three weeks.

 

Worst case scenario if you run out on the last couple of days or on the way home just book into a site for a hot shower. I bet you will be fine.

 

Gaslow is really good though.

[Brian Kirby]

michaelmorris - 2018-03-03 3:20 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2018-03-03 2:47 PM

 

If you needed to connect your motorhome to a French gas bottle, you would need to ensure that the regulator used would be a 37mbar one if the French bottle contained propane, or a 28mbar regulator if the French bottle contained butane - exactly as when you were using UK propane or butane gas bottles.

 

The on-bottle regulator for a Butagaz “Le Cube” is a clip-on 27mm type and I believe it is the same as used for Calor “Patio Gas” canisters (example here)

 

https://tinyurl.com/y8mq56kx

 

 

Thanks Derek

So, now for the $64,000 dollar questions -

1 - Which French butane cylinders are compatible with 28mbar regulators?

2 - Which French propane cylinders are compatible with 37mbar regulators?

3 - Where can I get hold of these regulators?

4 - Do I need any special hoses to connect these regulators to my system?

Too many options, I think, Michael! :-)

 

I'm guessing your existing regulator is 37mbar propane with a cylinder mount UK POL connection. This will (again I'm guessing) connect to a push-on low pressure "rubber" hose that is clipped in place with a jubilee clip, or similar. The other end of the hose may have a threaded connector to the rigid metal pipework (probably copper) feeding into your van, or may simply be pushed onto that with another jubilee type clip to secure it. Assuming these have been in place for some years, trying to swap them is liable to be a bit problematic (the rubber sticks at both ends and may take some cleaning off before you'll get a good gas-tight connection for the new hose). I'd say leave well alone.

 

The French Butagaz Le Cube LPG container is a little wider than the nearest currently available Calor cylinder, and is square. Calor 495 mm high x 256 mm diameter. Le Cube 356 mm high x 280 mm square. Height will be ok, but width may result in a tight squeeze. I'd suggest you first check the locker size to be sure.

 

Le Cube is readily available (supermarkets especially) as Butane or Propane. Both are the same size and colour, but the butane has a blue label, while the propane has a red label.

 

I'd suggest you stick with propane and continue using your existing regulator.

 

To do this you will need to obtain a suitable connector (the cylinder connection for Le Cube is a clip on, not screw on, type). Gaslow have a product claimed to suit the Le Cube cylinders here: http://tinyurl.com/yd2jycmz (easier than trying to track down a Butagaz Clip Direct connector, I suspect :-)). This terminates with a 21.8mm lh (left hand thread) male connector. You will then need a 21.8 lh female to UK POL female convertor piece to join the two together. Similar to this: http://tinyurl.com/y7pshlxl .

 

First mount the female 21.8lh connector to the Clip Direct connector and tighten to compress the neoprene washer, then attach the regulator to the other end of the adaptor, using a second spanner to prevent the adaptor turning while doing so (the neoprene washer at the 21.8mm end shouldn't be over-tightened).

 

Any good?

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

As you may aware your gas containers on refill stations have a safety feature 80 or 100 percent. Be aware

that mechanism is in the inside of your container It is not just open free space in the container their are some clever small pipes in their.

[michaelmorris]

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-03 4:44 PM

 

michaelmorris - 2018-03-03 3:20 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2018-03-03 2:47 PM

 

If you needed to connect your motorhome to a French gas bottle, you would need to ensure that the regulator used would be a 37mbar one if the French bottle contained propane, or a 28mbar regulator if the French bottle contained butane - exactly as when you were using UK propane or butane gas bottles.

 

The on-bottle regulator for a Butagaz “Le Cube” is a clip-on 27mm type and I believe it is the same as used for Calor “Patio Gas” canisters (example here)

 

https://tinyurl.com/y8mq56kx

 

 

Thanks Derek

So, now for the $64,000 dollar questions -

1 - Which French butane cylinders are compatible with 28mbar regulators?

2 - Which French propane cylinders are compatible with 37mbar regulators?

3 - Where can I get hold of these regulators?

4 - Do I need any special hoses to connect these regulators to my system?

Too many options, I think, Michael! :-)

 

I'm guessing your existing regulator is 37mbar propane with a cylinder mount UK POL connection. This will (again I'm guessing) connect to a push-on low pressure "rubber" hose that is clipped in place with a jubilee clip, or similar. The other end of the hose may have a threaded connector to the rigid metal pipework (probably copper) feeding into your van, or may simply be pushed onto that with another jubilee type clip to secure it. Assuming these have been in place for some years, trying to swap them is liable to be a bit problematic (the rubber sticks at both ends and may take some cleaning off before you'll get a good gas-tight connection for the new hose). I'd say leave well alone.

 

The French Butagaz Le Cube LPG container is a little wider than the nearest currently available Calor cylinder, and is square. Calor 495 mm high x 256 mm diameter. Le Cube 356 mm high x 280 mm square. Height will be ok, but width may result in a tight squeeze. I'd suggest you first check the locker size to be sure.

 

Le Cube is readily available (supermarkets especially) as Butane or Propane. Both are the same size and colour, but the butane has a blue label, while the propane has a red label.

 

I'd suggest you stick with propane and continue using your existing regulator.

 

To do this you will need to obtain a suitable connector (the cylinder connection for Le Cube is a clip on, not screw on, type). Gaslow have a product claimed to suit the Le Cube cylinders here: http://tinyurl.com/yd2jycmz (easier than trying to track down a Butagaz Clip Direct connector, I suspect :-)). This terminates with a 21.8mm lh (left hand thread) male connector. You will then need a 21.8 lh female to UK POL female convertor piece to join the two together. Similar to this: http://tinyurl.com/y7pshlxl .

 

First mount the female 21.8lh connector to the Clip Direct connector and tighten to compress the neoprene washer, then attach the regulator to the other end of the adaptor, using a second spanner to prevent the adaptor turning while doing so (the neoprene washer at the 21.8mm end shouldn't be over-tightened).

 

Any good?

 

Thanks Brian, that sounds like a nice low-cost. relatively low-hassle option. All I need to do now is measure the gas locker on our van to see if a 'Le Cube' cylinder will fit. :-D

[witzend]

All seems very complicated but if you get one of these they screw onto the majority of French bottles either Propane or Butane and allow you then to use your normal UK propane regulator

https://gasproducts.co.uk/gas-regulators/cylinder-adaptors-connectors/propane-pol-to-butane-adaptor.html

 

If asked any French address will do campsite or what ever I've used Intermarche super market gas for 8 yrs now

[Derek Uzzell]

michaelmorris - 2018-03-03 5:10 PM

 

Thanks Brian, that sounds like a nice low-cost. relatively low-hassle option. All I need to do now is measure the gas locker on our van to see if a 'Le Cube' cylinder will fit. :-D

 

You need to measure how much ‘floor area’ remains in your motorhome’s gas locker when one of your Calor bottle’s is in place, as a locker may be deep enough to accommodate a Calor bottle plus a Le Cube bottle, but not wide enough to take both. There have also been instances with older UK-built motorhomes (eg. my 1996 Herald Templar) where a gas locker designed to accommodate 2 x 6kg Calor bottles had a door aperture just wide enough for a Calor 6kg bottle, but too narrow for a Le Cube.

 

The amount of gas you use when in France will (as Barryd999 said above) depend on when you go there, and also how long you stay there, where you ‘camp’ and what the gas is used for.

 

Last December you said "We're planning to go to touring around Brittany next June for around 18 days.”

 

The weather in Brittany in June will be mild (or should be!) and it’s unlikely you’ll need gas for heating your motorhome. Presumbly your motorhome’s fridge (and possibly its water-boiler too) will operate on 230V, so using campsite 230V hook-ups would significantly reduce gas usage. How much cooking do you anticipate doing? Probably not a lot in Brittany in June. Will you be in France for 18 days or a full 3 weeks?

 

I can get by with well under 1 litre per day of gas touring in France (even in Autumn) when using mostly campsites (with 230V hook-ups) and mostly eating out - and my motorhome has a gas-only water-heater.

 

Two full Calor 6kg propane bottles (Calorlite or standard steel) equates to 24 litres of propane and that SHOULD be adequate for 21 days in Brittany in June. Assuming that you begin your trip with two full Calor 6kg bottles, if you obtained a French bottle (eg. a “Le Cube”) one of the Calor bottles would need to be removed from your motorhome’s gas locker to make room for the French bottle. Where would you store that Calor bottle?

 

Given when you are going to France and the shortish period of time you’ll be there, if you want to take preparatory measures just in case your Calor bottles run out, I believe you’d be best to opt for the Campingaz 907 canister option you mentioned in your posting of 3 March 2018 4:00 PM above.

 

As you said then, this is not a cheap approach, but a Campingaz 907 canister is small enough to be easily stored (I used to be able to carry a 907 canister ‘loose' in my Herald’s locker as well as the two Calor 6kg bottles) and (should it become necessary) replacing your present on-bottle propane regulator with a Campingaz regulator is a very simple task no more challenging than replacing your on-bottle propane regulator with an on-bottle butane regulator if you decided to use butane instead of propane.

 

This video-clip shows a Campingaz regulator being attached to a 907 canister:

 

 

If you are going to have sleepless nights over the possibility of running out of gas in France, buy a full Campingaz 907 canister and regulator in the UK and take them with you.

 

Campingaz canisters/regulators are fairly widely available in France

 

http://www.campingaz.com/FR/t-retailerlocator.aspx

 

so you could obtain tham in France if you needed to - though if you needed a 907 canister /regulator on a Sunday afternoon you’d probably be out of luck.

 

1: If you begin your French trip with two full Calor 6kg propane bottles, given when, where and how long your trip is, it’s likely you would not run out of gas.

 

2: If you want to have a back-up supply of gas in advance of your trip, get a Campingaz 907 canister and regulator in the UK.

 

3: If you did run out of gas in France, get a Campingaz 907 canister and regulator there.

 

I’m not going to suggest the Campingaz approach is ‘ideal’ or ‘best’ (and it won’t be the cheapest) but if you want minimum hassle and simplicity, with the opportunity to prepare in advance, that’s the way to go.

 

 

[michaelmorris]

We've got the van out of storage for it's MOT - passed with no advisories ;-). This has given me the opportunity to measure the gas locker. Unfortunately it looks like there isn't enough room for a Le Cube cylinder and 6kg Calor cylinder at the same time :-( .

 

So we're now trying to get a more informed idea of how much gas we're actually likely to use on this and subsequent trips before we decide on the best solution that will work for us.

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/How-much-gas-do-you-use-/48942/#M558653

 

Thanks for all the advice, it has been very helpful.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Hi Michael..

 

Our gas usage, was not too dissimilar to yours (1-2 cylinder last a year),resulting in us not getting a refillable..but unlike us, you have plans to take your van abroad, so with that in mind, just bite the bullet and get a refillable...

 

Sure, you could probably manage by sticking with exchange bottles, and swapping cylinders, regulators, adapters etc around as the region/country dictated ...but if you did, you would probably still coming back to "..we should've bought that refillable x years ago.."

(lol)

[michaelmorris]

pepe63 - 2018-03-14 1:55 PM

 

Hi Michael..

 

Our gas usage, was not too dissimilar to yours (1-2 cylinder last a year),resulting in us not getting a refillable..but unlike us, you have plans to take your van abroad, so with that in mind, just bite the bullet and get a refillable...

 

Sure, you could probably manage by sticking with exchange bottles, and swapping cylinders, regulators, adapters etc around as the region/country dictated ...but if you did, you would probably still coming back to "..we should've bought that refillable x years ago.."

(lol)

 

Whilst you may well be right, money is pretty tight at the moment (Just had to spend around £800 on service, habitation check, new vehicle and leisure batteries and some other work) so I'm looking to only go down the refillable route if I can really justify it financially.

[sheer lunar-see]

It will pay for itself in piece of mind if nothing else, and it can be removed and fitted to your next van or even resale, check out ebay to see if there are any for sale, but my advice is, go for it, sod the expense.