MEIRA Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Finally problem solved .bought a local gas cylinder for 13 Euro at Repsol .got a Spanish valve and a suitable adaptor to connect to our system for 27 euro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 What’s a “Spanish valve”? Hopefully you haven’t ended up with two regulators... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phalange Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 but after brexit will it be ok without an international gas certificate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Presumably that’s meant to be some sort of joke? If MEIRA’s motorhome is reasonably recent (say built after 2005) and has a 30mbar bulkhead-mounted regulator, and a well-meaning but leisure-vehicle-unfamiliar Spanish person has ‘sold’ MEIRA a Spanish regulator (a “Spanish valve”?) to attach to the Repsol gas-bottle, the motorhome would now have two regulators and the gas system would not function properly. The following two links prove how a combination of motorhome gas-system unfamiliarity (on the part of the motorcaravanner and sales-people) could lead to a major accident. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Warning-Gas/38630/ https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/French-gas/38479/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phalange Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-02-24 8:05 AM Presumably that’s meant to be some sort of joke? only if you some sort of sense of humour *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboyprowler Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Regulators mustn't be mixed! I am surprised that you were able to buy a bottle from Repsol direct without the necessary paperwork which is required in Spain. As Derek rightly says, there could be serious problems if you mix regulators that are maybe operating with different pressures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 No you will go back To your once famous BS standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 flyboyprowler - 2019-03-01 3:16 PM Regulators mustn't be mixed! I am surprised that you were able to buy a bottle from Repsol direct without the necessary paperwork which is required in Spain. As Derek rightly says, there could be serious problems if you mix regulators that are maybe operating with different pressures. My understanding is that the outlet of Spanish metal gas-bottles is the same for propane or butane bottles, but I assume that, if a regulator were fitted to (say) a propane bottle, that regulator’s regulated-pressure should be appropriate to propane (and similarly if the bottle held butane). Basically, if a Spanish regulator is fitted directly to a Spanish gas-bottle, the regulator should match the gas that’s in that bottle. In MEIRA’s case (previous forum thread here) https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Switching-from-propane-to-Lpg/51403/ the concern was that his motorhome would already have a 30mbar bulkhead-mounted regulator, but a 2nd regulator (rather than a full-pressure adapter) would be fitted to the Spanish gas-bottle. I queried this possibility in my posting of 23 February 2019 6:45 PM above, but there’s been no response from MEIRA. Probably it wouldn’t matter much if a superfluous regulator had been fitted to the bottle, as it would soon become apparent that a mistake had been made as the motorhome’s gas appliances wouldn’t work properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboyprowler Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 When we had cause to borrow a French bottle a couple of years ago, then all we had to do was fit the correct pipe (tail) directly to the gas bottle and then into the regulator, the pressures (30 bar) being the same. And later, using one refillable and one Spanish bottle, again no problem as the connections were directly to our regulator. Meira seemed to suggest that he was using a second regulator and possibly connecting directly to his 30 bar regulator (if fitted). Ah, Derek, just read your link above, and it seems we are both on the same page!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 I think we have to straightening this out in detail. Correct me eventually. The working pressure being the outlet of the regulator is always 30 Millibars. In that regulator could be a integral over pressure safety cut- off device. whit manual reset. Not sure if it is used but it can also a internal relief valve (IRV) Not blowing off gas to ATM. The inlet pressure comes from the recipient of gas The set pressure of 30 mbar is fixed and can be changed according the spring range fitted. You may not do this as a user. as it is sealed. The soft material used is different depending on LPG or pure butane because of humidity difference. It is done by color coding. Blue for butane and orange or red for propane. And do not mix the two . I find this out when changing from propane to butane. And it includes also the shut off valve nearest to the gasholder what ever that will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-03-02 2:11 PM I think we have to straightening this out in detail. Correct me eventually. The working pressure being the outlet of the regulator is always 30 Millibars... That’s not the case... In the following “GAS IN EUROPE” forum thread I attempted to provide basic gas-related information for UK MOTORCARAVANNERS travelling abroad. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/GAS-IN-EUROPE/48534/ The gas-systems in UK-built motorhomes can be split into two types - Old System (OS), where a 28mbar (butane) or 37mbar (propane) regulator is attached directly to a gas-bottle’s outlet and then connects to the motorhome's fixed gas pipework via a low-pressure hose, or New System (NS) where a 'fixed' bulkhead-mounted 30mbar regulator atteches directly to the motorhome's metal pipework and is connected to the gas-bottle’s outlet via a high-pressure hose. With OS the regulator and gas should match: with NS butane or propane can be used with the same regulator. (There is also a superseded 50mbar system that may still be found on older German vehicles that were imported into the UK in the past.) There is plenty of information about this on-line, or in motorhome books and magazines (example here) https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/advice-and-training/technical-advice/liquefied-petroleum-gas/ but problems can arise when UK motorcaravanners venture abroad with UK gas-bottles, run out of gas and then have little idea what the next step should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Like to add that you can have two regulator in series. where the second one act as a safety one for overpressure if the first fails because of dirt. The regulator is for lpg and butane. but not the hose. And the shut-off valve on the bottle is different . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 A leisure-vehicle gas system with two separate regulators is indeed a possibilty and there are examples of a ‘1st-stage’ change-over regulator here https://www.h2r-equipements.com/tuyau-lyre-detendeur-gaz-camping-car/4204-favex-pre-detendeur-inverseur-propane.html and of a coupled 1st-stage and 2nd-stage pair of regulators here https://www.h2r-equipements.com/tuyau-lyre-detendeur-gaz-camping-car/4217-favex-pre-detendeur-propane.html The rationale is that, if the 2nd-stage regulator fails to regulate, the 1st-stage regulator will prevent gas at full-pressure reaching the appliance. I remember Richard Cecil (of MTH Autogas) telling me of an accident where a motorhome’s single-stage on-bottle regulator failed while cooking was being carried out and the door of the gas-oven was blown completely off. This information is (GOOGLE-translated) from a French forum Regulator - usage pressures. The gas vaporizes in the space left free in the upper part of the bottle. However, it is necessary to regulate its pressure before sending it into the circuit feeding our devices. This is the role of the regulator. Prior to 1997 (date to be checked), the standards required the presence of a pre-regulator, or high-pressure regulator. It is easily recognized, it is a big button cream color, which must be re-arm after any gas cut. Behind this pre-regulator was a 37mBar (propane) regulator. Everything was designed to run on propane only. After this date, the installation is simplified in our motorhomes with a single regulator 30 mbar to use Propane and Butane, and therefore GPL, indifferently. Normally, you need a 28 millibars regulator for butane, and a 37 millibars regulator for propane. The 30 mBar expansion valve is an "acceptable" compromise; The 30 mbar regulator avoids choosing between butane or propane, and therefore only requires a relaxation at the outlet of the bottle, the pre-regulator no longer exists. At the expense of safety ... Indeed, if a problem arises between the output of the regulator 30 mbar and the device, the gas will continue to come out. What with the expansion valve at 37 mbar or 28 mbar can not occur, the one triggering the slightest problem by blocking the arrival of gas downstream (excess flow in case of tearing of a hose for example) ), but also upstream (significant drop in pressure when closing and reopening a tap). I’ve never seen a (UK or ‘foreign’ built) motorhome/caravan gas system comprising separate1st-stage and 2nd-stage regulators in series, and my understanding is that the design of some of the more modern 30mbar ‘fixed’ regulators incorporates the two stages of regulation into a single unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 It is used in every natural gas station- cabin near your home. They have two different set pressures, if one fails in the open position the other one takes over at a higher outlet pressure safe for use. Still let the gas flow. A single regulator can not do that. What he can do is blow off gas, as your isolation valve on the-gas holder. Which can have 15 bars of damp pressure. The regulator will return in working mode when the outlet is below set pressure in auto mode. The extras are a real auto shutoff valve, no gas and reset by hand after clearance of the over pressure problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 In the gas world they call the them the MONITOR regulator.And the other the ACTIVE regulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deffheads Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 QUOTE but problems can arise when UK motorcaravanners venture abroad with UK gas-bottles, run out of gas and then have little idea what the next step should be. Derek, I beg to differ. we use 2 x 13kg UK bottles without any problems, and fill up at all Spanish fuel stations with LPG. I think most motorhomers get suckered into buying expensive refillable bottles and are unable to use common sense with anything to do with gas or electric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delmore Shwartz Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 This year I bought a Safegas refillable cylinder and have had no problems getting it filled in Spain. The attendants have even used their own adaptors. Apparently they are big in the Netherlands and I've seen a number of Dutch vans using them. Big advantage is that you can take the with you when you change vans. I've sold vans on with my gas low installation going with them for no more additional cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Deffheads - 2019-03-03 6:13 PM QUOTE but problems can arise when UK motorcaravanners venture abroad with UK gas-bottles, run out of gas and then have little idea what the next step should be. Derek, I beg to differ. we use 2 x 13kg UK bottles without any problems, and fill up at all Spanish fuel stations with LPG. I think most motorhomers get suckered into buying expensive refillable bottles and are unable to use common sense with anything to do with gas or electric. I don’t see what you are begging to differ about regarding my statement, as it doesn’t really conflict with your comment that most motorhomers are unable to use common sense with anything to do with gas or electric. There are valid reasons for motorcaravanners to opt for a user-refillable gas bottle/tank and valid reasons for them to choose not to. Even if a motorcaravanner decides to refill ‘exchange-only’ gas-bottles (eg. Calor bottles) that they do not own and that have no ’safety features’ (eg. have no 80% cut-off valve) an appropriate adapter will still be needed to connect the bottle to the autogas pump-gun and the person doing the refilling should be aware of the increased risks involved in the procedure compared with using a purpose-designed user-refillable bottle/tank. To try to provide guidance on motorhome gas usage abroad I wrote the “GAS IN EUROPE” posting that I linked to above https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/GAS-IN-EUROPE/48534/ and this includes the following: (Exchange-only bottles can be refilled in some European countries. This practice carries inherent risks and is frowned on by all responsible leisure authorities. It may well be illegal (it certainly is in France) and it will definitely break the hire contract regulations for this type of bottle.) Would you disagree with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Yes is not easy abroad in Europe travelling on LPG. The filling stations come and go. So are the replaceable cylinders. And under slung tanks And the adapters per country.. I will use the dutch site Gas systems in europe for the camper. And they can explain what all these G numbers mean which is keyword on adapters, Like Shell -F- France. And where the sealing rings sits etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deffheads Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Derek, I wonder if you have time to use your motorhome as you seem to be glued to the internet, and give some very interesting input, I wish I had time to follow this forum as you do, but I am enjoying life in Iberia too much. I would love to hear some of your motorhome travels and recommendations and experiences in all countries in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Since we started motorcaravanning in 1998 we’ve only used the 3 motorhomes we’ve owned in France from late-March to end-October and for trips lasting no longer than a fortnight. As I may have said before, I’m not a motorcaravanning enthusiast and travel does not interest me. But my wife enjoys visiting France and I’m happy to chauffeur her around in a big white shed on wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 In the gas valve On a bottle there is mostly a soft seal ring of NBR on the outlet. Protected by crimp plastic. In new condition. If in my case using a camping Gaz bottle type 907- 2.75 kg of gas. The 30 mbar regulator is directly connected to the outlet of that valve but has also a soft seal. Is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 Not sure I understand your question... When a Campingaz 907 bottle is used https://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/campingaz-907-cylinder-camping-gas-refill-p95486 the bottle’s central outlet will either have a regulator screwed on to it https://www.wonkeedonkeetools.co.uk/gas-regulators-and-hoses/what-are-the-parts-of-a-campingaz-regulator/ or, if a motorhome/caravan already has a 30mbar bulkhead-mounted regulator, a ‘full-pressure’ adapter will be screwed on to the 907’s central outlet instead https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/153346182954?chn=ps As shown in the links above there will be a rubber sealing washer between the regulator (or adapter) and the 907’s outlet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 As always thank You Derek. I spent hours on it to find out myself. Still not clear to me. On my kepler one the bottle 907 is used and stands in a gas locker whit one strap. And i have a spare one whit strap in another locker. In that bottle you have to screw a angle type take out valve whit a nbr seal. That valve(GOK) came whit the car, incl safety relief inside.Not the standard camping valve in your last link used for barbecue. And a GOK 30 mbar regulator again whit relief valve coupled whit a wing nut and shell F to the outlet of valve in U form to the divider manifold valves. I think their should be one gasket in removable conection between the two. Regards from my partner as old as you who left me now alone to drive the kepler to the dog festivals which is not a problem at all I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 I don’t know how many UK converters would specify a Campingaz bottle for gas heating, but I’m guessing not many and only those converters building small panel-van-based models with a limited requirement for heating. I notice that there is a YouTube video-clip relating to a VW California’s gas system and this shows a Campingaz 907 bottle with a 'Shell wheel type’ screw-in shut-off valve to which a right-angled GOK regulator is connected. (photo attached). I don’t know if your Westfalia has the same arrangement, but it seems plain with the California’s set-up where the seals need to be. I believe your Kepler One’s water heater is gas-fuelled, and I assume Campingaz (which is butane) will be OK for powering that heater as I doubt you’ll be going skiing in your Westfalia. If not, Gaslow offers a 2.7kg user-refillable cylinder http://tinyurl.com/y2jugm7h that would allow autogas to be used. (Not sure if that cylinder would fit in your camper, though, if a Kepler One has an unusual gas system.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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