Gaslow & bbq

[whatsupdoc]

Does anyone have a Gaslow system with a feed for an external bbq (to save carrying a separate bottle for the bbq)?

 

Is it even possible?

 

If so, what's required, and is it a job best left to a professional?

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Hi

Not a Gaslow system admittedly but I fitted a outlet/tap inside our gaslocker by "Teeing" into the rigid existing pipework(...inboard of reg')and I just feed the hose out through one of the drop holes.

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=126

 

 

[Corky 8]

Our Autotrail Mohican  has a separate bbq gas outlet fitted by the Manufacturer on the nearside external wall  , feed is on a  3 feed manifold with isolators, , ie  1. gas fire, 2. fridge, 3 External bbq point., I use it via a gas polker to light a charcoal bbq , not fond of the gas flavoured type.,  But I would check what your gas bbq  is regulated at. as the fixed Motorhome regulators are set  at 37 mb I believe. hope this is of help.

[Frankkia]

1) Corky - The pressure for the current "fixed" regulators is 30mb whereas the previous UK standard was 37mb for propane.

 

2) Pepe's system looks to have been installed well and tidily and I assume he knew what he was doing, but I have seen some real travelling death traps and would suggest that the answer to your question "Is it best left to a pro". If you don't know then leave it to a pro or at least if you have good practical skills and you think you can do it at least have it tested by a pro before using it.

 

Where is Dave Newell when you need him?!

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

We have a bbq point that was original fitment in our IH, just a simple tee from the pipework to it, oddly though it is in the interior of the van, go figure. 8-)

[vindiboy]

I  have just installed a GASIT system in my van, same as Gaslow but much cheaper, I opted for a connection with a fitting to both 11kg bottles that allowed me to use a pig tail connection from bottle to Regulator,I did not wan't change over valves ,so have one bottle in use and the other,full, ready to be connected when the one in use empties,simply  by just undoing the wheeled hand operated pigtail connector.I can therefore connect my Barbi to the  standby bottle using a bottle regulator fitted with a hose and quick release connection, the Regulator has a hand wheel for ease of fitting. This also means that I did not have to fit a Barbi Point to my system, it is all very simple and works very well.If you Google GASIT you will see all the fittings available on their Webb pages.

[Derek Uzzell]

whatsupdoc - 2013-07-13 5:21 PM

 

Does anyone have a Gaslow system with a feed for an external bbq (to save carrying a separate bottle for the bbq)?

 

Is it even possible?

 

If so, what's required, and is it a job best left to a professional?

 

Logically, a BBQ gas-supply point should be external and connection to it should be simple and safe.

 

There are several purpose-designed products that meet those criteria. Examples are shown here:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/caravan-bbq-point

 

In principle it should be straightforward enough to install a BBQ point: in practice it would easy to get it disastrously wrong. John Wickersham (in his book "Build Your Own Motorcaravan") advises that the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 stipulate that "No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting unless he is competent to do so".

 

JW highlights that "competent" is not defined in the regulations, but it's doubtful that the average DIYer would qualify. "Competency" won't matter if problems don't arise, but could well become an issue if you screwed up the installation, a gas-related accident occurred and it became evident that you'd been fiddling about with your motorhome's gas system. As you've felt the need to ask your final question, I strongly suggest you have the job done professionally.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Frankkia - 2013-07-13 9:41 PM

...Pepe's system looks to have been installed well and tidily and I assume he knew what he was doing...

 

Well,thank you kind sir! :$

(..and I've still got my eyebrows,which is good! :-D )

 

We did use the outlet a fair bit the first year or so(both for a bbq and for a two burner stove) but to be honest,I can't recall the last time we used the bbq?(it's been in the loft for over a year,to my knowledge!),as it was a real pain in the ar*se to clean...and even now, for cooking outside, more often than not I find myself reverting to using our "standby" suitcase stoves..!?.. :-S

 

I don't know where the gas locker is on the OP's van(..and I can't be bothered to "google" it ;-) ) but if it's the opposite side to the hab' door then the idea that I've adopted probably wouldn't be feasible anyway, as you'd really need to cook the "other side" of the van.

 

 

[alan k]

I had one of the Bullfinch points fitted, in the side of the gas locker, its teed off the supply after the regulator by the lovely people at Autogas 2000. see http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/bbq--barbeque-gas-points-49-c.asp

 

It works great

 

cheers alan

[whatsupdoc]

Many thanks for all your replies

 

I will have the job done by a prefessional, but I now have a much better understanding of what's involved, and that's always an advantage in such situations! I'll probably source the parts myself, 'though.

 

[Basil]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-07-14 7:59 AM

 

Logically, a BBQ gas-supply point should be external and connection to it should be simple and safe.

 

There are several purpose-designed products that meet those criteria. Examples are shown here:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/caravan-bbq-point

 

In principle it should be straightforward enough to install a BBQ point: in practice it would easy to get it disastrously wrong. John Wickersham (in his book "Build Your Own Motorcaravan") advises that the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 stipulate that "No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting unless he is competent to do so".

 

JW highlights that "competent" is not defined in the regulations, but it's doubtful that the average DIYer would qualify. "Competency" won't matter if problems don't arise, but could well become an issue if you screwed up the installation, a gas-related accident occurred and it became evident that you'd been fiddling about with your motorhome's gas system. As you've felt the need to ask your final question, I strongly suggest you have the job done professionally.

 

Once again JW gets it wrong, carrying out gas work on a motorhome or caravan is NOT covered by the Gas Safety Regulations and is in fact expressly excluded unless the motorhome/ caravan is being used for hire or reward.

 

That is not to say that someone who is not feeling confident or competent should carry out work on any part of their pride and joy, just the reference to the GS Regs I take issue with!

 

Bas

[Mel B]

pepe63 - 2013-07-14 8:52 AM

 

I don't know where the gas locker is on the OP's van(..and I can't be bothered to "google" it ;-) ) but if it's the opposite side to the hab' door then the idea that I've adopted probably wouldn't be feasible anyway, as you'd really need to cook the "other side" of the van.

It depends what model year his van is - if it is up and including 2010 then it will be on the offside just in front of the the garage door, if it is 2011 onwards it will be on the nearside just behind the driver's door (yes, I'm an anorak! :D ).

[whatsupdoc]

Mel B - 2013-07-19 9:20 PM

 

pepe63 - 2013-07-14 8:52 AM

 

I don't know where the gas locker is on the OP's van(..and I can't be bothered to "google" it ;-) ) but if it's the opposite side to the hab' door then the idea that I've adopted probably wouldn't be feasible anyway, as you'd really need to cook the "other side" of the van.

It depends what model year his van is - if it is up and including 2010 then it will be on the offside just in front of the the garage door, if it is 2011 onwards it will be on the nearside just behind the driver's door (yes, I'm an anorak! :D ).

It's the latter - so adjacent to the hab door!

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Basil - 2013-07-19 9:02 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2013-07-14 7:59 AM

 

Logically, a BBQ gas-supply point should be external and connection to it should be simple and safe.

 

There are several purpose-designed products that meet those criteria. Examples are shown here:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/caravan-bbq-point

 

In principle it should be straightforward enough to install a BBQ point: in practice it would easy to get it disastrously wrong. John Wickersham (in his book "Build Your Own Motorcaravan") advises that the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 stipulate that "No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting unless he is competent to do so".

 

JW highlights that "competent" is not defined in the regulations, but it's doubtful that the average DIYer would qualify. "Competency" won't matter if problems don't arise, but could well become an issue if you screwed up the installation, a gas-related accident occurred and it became evident that you'd been fiddling about with your motorhome's gas system. As you've felt the need to ask your final question, I strongly suggest you have the job done professionally.

 

Once again JW gets it wrong, carrying out gas work on a motorhome or caravan is NOT covered by the Gas Safety Regulations and is in fact expressly excluded unless the motorhome/ caravan is being used for hire or reward.

 

That is not to say that someone who is not feeling confident or competent should carry out work on any part of their pride and joy, just the reference to the GS Regs I take issue with!

 

Bas

 

JW doesn't "get it wrong".

 

He says in his book exactly what you've just mentioned about hire (and public use), going on to mention the issue of 'competency' and how this might be interpreted regarding DIY work.

 

(It's inevitable that forum references will be 'short-handed' sometimes and I make no apology for having done that in this instance. If you still want to criticise what JW says about this in his book, you'll need to read the relevant section (Page 166 in my copy) and then decide if your criticism is justified.)

[pepe63xnotuse]

whatsupdoc - 2013-07-19 10:52 PM

...It's the latter - so adjacent to the hab door!

 

So mounting it within the gas locker, is at least a "workable" option then....

 

I wasn't overly keen on cutting a hole in the van wall, especially when there wasn't really any need to..

..also, our van didn't really have any spare, easily accessible, "wall space..".

 

 

[Basil]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-07-20 9:36 AM

 

(It's inevitable that forum references will be 'short-handed' sometimes and I make no apology for having done that in this instance. If you still want to criticise what JW says about this in his book, you'll need to read the relevant section (Page 166 in my copy) and then decide if your criticism is justified.)

 

Then in that case you got it wrong by miss or short quoting him and you should not short hand an important referance to a legal document!

 

I haven't read, nor would I bother to read his book as he makes so many glaring errors in his pieces in MMM that I consider him an unreliable source.

 

Bas

[Cliffy]

whatsupdoc - 2013-07-13 5:21 PM

 

Does anyone have a Gaslow system with a feed for an external bbq (to save carrying a separate bottle for the bbq)?

 

Is it even possible?

 

If so, what's required, and is it a job best left to a professional?

 

Our new Cadac Safari is working great from our Gaslow system via Autotrail fitted BBQ point.

 

There is an isolation valve under the cooker and a operational valve on the outside of the van. All pipework appears to be copper.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Basil - 2013-07-20 8:51 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2013-07-20 9:36 AM

 

(It's inevitable that forum references will be 'short-handed' sometimes and I make no apology for having done that in this instance. If you still want to criticise what JW says about this in his book, you'll need to read the relevant section (Page 166 in my copy) and then decide if your criticism is justified.)

 

Then in that case you got it wrong by miss or short quoting him and you should not short hand an important referance to a legal document!

 

I haven't read, nor would I bother to read his book as he makes so many glaring errors in his pieces in MMM that I consider him an unreliable source.

 

Bas

 

Yeah, yeah... If it makes you happy - mea culpa.

 

I'm certain I've said many things on this forum that have been questionable or factually incorrect. I try not to be wrong, but I know I'm not infallible and I've never claimed to be so.

 

Despite your (startling) view that John Wickersham is "an unreliable source", if every motorcaravanner owned, read and understood his "The Motorcaravan Manual" and "Build your own Motorcaravan" books, a sgnificant percentage of the questions on motorhome forums would not need to have been asked and, when more complex issues not covered specifically in JW's books do come up, at least there would be no requirement to go back to basics.

 

JW leans heavily towards the side of safety, and surely one should not expect him to do otherwise? In this case, pepe63's approach to adding a BBQ gas-point is probably as simple as one can get. But it still involves bending narrow-diameter gas pipe (that can easily be kinked or over-stressed) and making compression joints (that can be under- or over-tightened). In the "Gas Supply System" chapter of his "Build your own Motorcaravan" book JW provides gas pipe-related safety tips and caveats about compression-joint making. Also references to European standards relating to gas installation in leisure vehicles.

 

It's quite possible that pepe63's approach conflicts with EN standards, and you won't find this type of methodology used by motorhome manufacturers. Personally, as a relatively reckless DIYer myself, EN compliance wouldn't much bother me. But it might concern an insurance company if someone DIYing an installation similar to pepe63's screwed up and an accident resulted.

 

You may quibble over some of the things in JW's writings (as might I), but you are only able to do this because you are an 'expert' motorcaravanner. For people who aren't 'experts' (and, if they were they would be answering questions on forums not asking them ;-) ) I suggest that, if JW only gets things 95% right (whatever "right" means) in his books it will still be well worth novice and limited-experience motorcaravanners obtaining them.

[Basil]

Cannot agree with your last comment, misinformation is worse and possibly more dangerous than no information. Anyone putting themselves into a position of an 'expert', of which I do not place myself in mearly an experienced camper, and putting forward miss or disinformation is a very dangerous person in my book, a person in this position needs to be 100% correct when offering 'facts' rather than an opinion.

 

Bas

[Derek Uzzell]

In late-2012 this forum-thread was running:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/MMM-magazine-Quality-and-Accuracy/29556/

 

You responded to a comment I made as follows:

 

Basil - 2012-11-18 2:31 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2012-11-18 8:54 AM

 

It's certainly the case (and hardly surprising) that MMM's format has changed radically since the original John Hunt days, and significantly since Mike Jago was editor, but I can't say I've noticed any deterioration in standards during the last 6 months.

 

How are you defining "quality of articles" and, when it comes to inaccuracy of information, can you pin-point examples? Or is this just an undefinable feeling on your part?

 

 

I agree with your first paragraph completely Derek. With regard to the second, I e-mailed the editor regarding inaccuracies and quality of information (misleading) in some Wickersham articles and didn't even have the courtesy of a reply, so gave up!!

 

Bas

 

Although you don't categorise yourself as an 'expert', you clearly believe you have sufficient critical ability to be able to spot inaccuracies and misleading information "in some Wickersham articles" in MMM, and (based on the fact that you've felt the need to bring those perceived errors to the attention of MMM's editor) that you rate such flaws as important (even "dangerous" perhaps).

 

The originator of the 2012 thread also complained of lack of "accuracy of information". I asked him to pin-point examples but none were provided.

 

I'll ask you a similar question. As John Wickersham makes "so many glaring errors in his pieces in MMM" that you consider him an unreliable source, you must have numerous examples that you can cite. Amongst these would you please indicate a few that you consider to be important/misleading/dangerous? (Let's say within the last 5 years). I'd particularly like examples of "disinformation" (intentionally false or inaccurate information provided deliberately) in JW articles as I've never read anything like that in them.

 

There are forum participants who most forum members would accept as genuine motorhome experts (eg. George Collings), not merely experienced campers, and it would be interesting to know if they would agree with your view of the severity or importance of JW's 'errors'.

 

John Wickersham is multi-talented and one of his other books is "The David & Charles Manual of Roofing". I'm going to suggest that misinformation in a roofing manual is much more potentailly lethal than a comment (that may be opinion-driven rather than 100% factually accurate or complete) in an motorhome magazine article intended to be read by the average motorcaravanner not a technical 'nerd' like me.

 

 

[Basil]

Ok! I'll play your 'game' with one so not to hijack this thread!

 

Never mind about 'A' Frames Is the QPod mentioned in the MMM article by the aformentioned legal to be towed in the UK or even Europe?

He said it is what say you?

 

Bas

[Derek Uzzell]

Basil - 2013-07-22 6:10 PM

 

Ok! I'll play your 'game' with one so not to hijack this thread!

 

Never mind about 'A' Frames Is the QPod mentioned in the MMM article by the aformentioned legal to be towed in the UK or even Europe?

He said it is what say you?

 

Bas

 

Which MMM article are you referring to, please?

 

JW wrote a long A-frame-related article in MMM August 2007 in which he concentrated on the 'safety' of the practice and said that he would deliberately avoid the legal arguments that we're all well aware of.

 

JW does/did tow a Q Pod with his motorhome on an unbraked A-frame and (because the Q Pod has brakes) I'd argue that doing this conflicts with UK towing regulations. I don't think it would necessarily conflict with the towing regulations of every non-UK EU country but, if challenged when abroad, it might be harder to put forward the "It's OK in the UK" defence that A-framers are fond of.

 

I'm not aware of a JW article in which he's actually claimed that towing a Q-Pod on an unbraked A-frame (or any A-frame for that matter) is legal either in the UK or abroad.

[Basil]

Your interpratation is the same as mine and was reluctantly admitted to me by the sales people at Llama who were trying to sell me one and who I was interested in buying from at the time.

I say again wrong information in my book is worse than no information especially when it is from an 'respected' source as new or inexperienced people may take as gospel what is said, at least on a Forum you know, or should know, to treat all opinions as such.

I do not keep back copies of MMM but it was an article in the not far distant past, I believe within the last year but time goes by so fast it may have been longer but I don't believe as far back as 2007, covering towing of all types where (this is from memory so not word for word) it came under the section on trailers under the 750Kg so it did not need to have a braked towing system, but of course it was ommitted that as the Qpod had brakes, legally they must work so the system is not legal on the UK road.

 

Bas

[Derek Uzzell]

In a mid-January 2012 forum-thread you said “My experience of sending e-mails to editorial staff is to be ignored. Still waiting for a reply to my e-mail to the new editor regarding an error in a John Wickersham article last year!!!”

 

Assuming that the article was towing-related I looked back through MMM’s 2011 issues and, in the June publication, found a 4-page piece by JW headed “Trailer Types and Tips”. This includes two photos, one of a quad-bike with a caption “Quad bikes are usually light enough to tow on an unbraked trailer, although this one is sold with a towing bar”, and a second of a Fun Tech (aka a “Q Pod”) hitched to the back of a vehicle via a towing-bar that lifts the Fun Tech’s front wheels clear of the ground. The latter photo is captioned “Vehicles like the Fun Tech are so light they can be towed on some unbraked trailers, although many use a bar like this.”

 

In a 2007 forum-thread you commented on the legality of towing a Q-Pod with its brakes inoperable

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Quad-type-small-car-/7623/#M50942

 

repeating your advice in more detail in 2009

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Qpod-Sport/16884/

 

JW’s June 2011 MMM article has a section headed “Towing Trailer-less Cars” and this includes the following paragraphs:

 

“However, this isn’t an article about A-frames and my earlier review published in MMM (Aug 2007) highlighted several contentious issues. Of greater relevance here is the trailerless towing of that small number of vehicles that weigh less than 750kg.

 

For example, my Fun Tech two-seater weighs a mere 210kg(unladen). When I bought this French micro-car in 2000, I also purchased the optional bar which elevates its front wheels above the road when it’s being towed. However, the towing bar should have included a secondary coupling, but didn’t; so I’ve had to add one myself.

 

Some of the quad bikes that have been on sale at many of the MMM outdoor shows have also included a similar towing bar. Moreover, the model pictured alongside did have a mandatory secondary coupling fitted on its bar as required.”

 

Now, although your (and my) opinion is that towing a Fun Tech/Q Pod on its wheels using an unbraked system (as with the optional towing-bar) conflicts with UK towing regulations relating to unbraked trailers, JW has never (to the best of my knowledge) claimed in any of his articles that this towing scenario complies with UK towing regulations. He has NOT (as you’ve suggested earlier) claimed that a Fun Tech/Q Pod being ‘suspended towed’ is “legal to be towed in the UK or even Europe”.

 

I don’t know what was in your e-mail to MMM’s editor, but, if you said that JW had advised that the Fun Tech/Q Pod towing method referred to in his articles was UK/Europe legal, that’s not the case. It may well not be legal, but JW didn’t claim that it was!

 

I note that the Q Pod towing-legality question has recently been raised on the Q Pod Club forum:

 

http://www.qpodclub.com/forum/topics/towing-a-qpod-sport

 

It’s likely (based on earlier on-line comments) that the response will be “It’s illegal because of the braking requirement”, but we shall see.

 

If JW were to be castigated for a sin of omission in this particular instance (which, in my view, would not be a hanging offence), the advice in the FAQ section of the National Trailer and Towing Association’s website (www.ntta.co.uk) regarding towing an unbraked vehicle is much more questionable.

 

“I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit?

 

Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car’s kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car’s Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.”

 

While you are perfectly entitled to consider JW as an “unreliable source” of motorhome-related advice. I believe this is as much influenced by the fact that you didn’t get a reply from MMM’s editor, than from actual evidence of “so many glaring errors in his (JW’s) pieces”.

 

While high-speed browsing through the latest issue of MMM I noticed on a single page one thing that I’m 99.9% sure is factually incorrect and another that I’m pretty sure is wrong. Neither much matter and I see no reason to identify them, and certainly no need to draw MMM’s editor’s attention to them. An obsessive approach to factual accuracy and completeness will be necessary when writing, say, a technical manual for building a jet engine, but it's an unrealistic expectation for generalised articles in motorhome magazines.

[Basil]

Well we will have to agree to disagree as I believe that by implication writing an article on towing should give factual accurate information and clearly by picture and by the written word this was not the case.

As you do not know the content of my e-mail to the editor I believe it unreasonable for you to make the assumption you have of what I wrote, for your information my e-mail asked that JW or the editorial staff made it clearer that although these vehicles were shown and spoken of they were not neccessarily legal to be towed as the article did not make this clear.

This was actually the third time I had written to the editors over a period of time, prior to Andrew taking the reigns, regarding inaccurate information so this was not the only time. I came to the stage where I found I was ignoring most of what is written so cancelled my subscription.

You are probably correct that on this occasion my irritation has been intensified by the lack of response from MMM but I still beleive that accuracy, especially in a magazine that is aimed more and more at beginers, is of paramount importance. You may also be correct that his may well have been the trigger for my comment that has started this exchange where you omitted information so implied that JW had not given the full and correct information.

 

Bas